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Author Topic: Sinar arTec Prices  (Read 12393 times)
thsinar
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« on: September 05, 2008, 04:47:17 AM »
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For your information, below the prices for the Sinar arTec camera, its accessories as well as the lenses for this camera. First column = Product Number - Last column = Availability

2nd part: Sinar arTec - Scope of delivery

3rd part: details of the 2 available arTec Bundles (Scope of Delivery)

Best regards,
Thierry

1. Prices (Euro)

493.23.000     Sinar arTec                                      (7'226.-)                               Oct. 08
493.23.011     Sinar arTec-e54r (Bundle)               (15'549.-)                               Oct. 08
493.23.013     Sinar arTec-e75r (Bundle)               (24'268.-)                               Oct. 08
       
445.87.103     Sinaron Digital 4.5/45 CEF                 (2'316.-)                               Oct. 08
445.87.105     Sinaron Digital 4.5/55 CEF                 (2'376.-)                               Oct. 08
445.87.107     Sinaron Digital 5.6/70 CEF                 (2'689.-)                               Oct. 08
445.87.109     Sinaron Digital 5.6/90 CEF                 (2'255.-)                               Oct. 08
445.87.113     Sinaron Digital 5.6/135 CEF               (2'366.-)                               Oct. 08
445.87.158     Sinaron Digital HR 4.5/28 CEF            (3'994.-)                               Oct. 08
445.87.160     Sinaron Digital HR 4.0/35 CEF            (2'968.-)                               Oct. 08
445.87.164     Sinaron Digital HR 4.0/60 CEF            (2'814.-)                               Oct. 08
445.87.168     Sinaron Digital HR 4.0/100 CEF          (2'843.-)                               Oct. 08
445.87.156     Sinaron Digital VHR 5.6/23 CEF         "to be decided"                   2Q/2009
       
547.81.051     Adapter Ring 100/M49                          (56.-)                             from stock
547.81.053     Adapter Ring 100/M58                          (56.-)                             from stock
547.81.055     Adapter Ring 100/M67                          (56.-)                             from stock
547.81.066     Adapter Ring 100/M72 R                       (56.-)                             from stock
547.81.002     Cap for Lens Adapter Ring                    (10.-)                             from stock
493.23.041     Artec Lens Hood                        "to be decided"                         1Q/2009
551.43.097     White Shading Diffusor                         (65.-)                             from stock
       
493.23.043     Artec Rod Holder                                 (59.-)                                Oct. 08
472.61.000     Hexagonal Rod 11 cm                          (10.-)                             from stock
472.71.000     Hexagonal Rod 16 cm                          (13.-)                             from stock
472.81.000     Hexagonal Rod 25 cm                          (16.-)                             from stock
546.31.000     Swiveling Linear Polarizing Filter          (375.-)                             from stock
       
531.61.000     Accessory Shoe 32 from stock
551.64.070     Trigger Cable Emotion/Precision           (62.-) from stock

2. Sinar arTec (493.23.000)

552.23.100     Sinar arTec
551.32.086     Focusing Magnifier
493.23.504     Metallic Format Mask 75
475.45.036     Sturdy Sinar arTec Case with dedicated liner

3. Sinar arTec bundles

- Sinar arTec-e54r (493.23.011)

552.23.100     Sinar arTec
551.32.086     Focusing Magnifier
493.23.504     Metallic Format Mask 75
552.36.x11     Sinarback eMotion 54 LV
552.36.085     SB eMotion/Sinar Hy6 Revolving Adapter
551.64.070     Trigger Cable eMotion/Precision
551.63.054     Firewire Cable 1394 A, 4.5 m
551.43.097     White Shading Diffusor 100
552.36.096     Sinar V290 Li+ Battery
552.36.093     Battery Charger with Mains Adapters
552.37.092     CF Card 4 GB
552.37.090     CF Card Reader
751.43.003     Gray Card
551.33.090     Digital Cleaning Kit from stock
CD with Capturing Software and Instructions Sinar arTec from stock
475.45.038     Sinar Artec System Case with dedicated liner Oct. 08
-----> Sinaron Digital CEF Lenses to be purchased separately

- Sinar arTec-e75r (493.23.013)

552.23.100     Sinar arTec
551.32.086     Focusing Magnifier
493.23.504     Metallic Format Mask 75
552.36.x13     Sinarback eMotion 75 LV
552.36.085     SB eMotion/Sinar Hy6 Revolving Adapter
551.64.070     Trigger Cable eMotion/Precision
551.63.054     Firewire Cable 1394 A, 4.5 m
551.43.097     White Shading Diffusor 100
552.36.096     Sinar V290 Li+ Battery
552.36.093     Battery Charger with Mains Adapters
552.37.092     CF Card 4 GB
552.37.090     CF Card Reader
751.43.003     Gray Card
551.33.090     Digital Cleaning Kit
CD with Capturing Software and Instructions Sinar arTec
475.45.038     Sinar Artec System Case with dedicated liner Oct. 08
-----> Sinaron Digital CEF Lenses are sold separately
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2008, 07:37:13 AM »
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Thierry,

Thanks for the prices.

Most people living in the EU will probably find them to be on the reasonnable side of expensive, it hurts being in Japan, but Sinar is for sure not reponsible for that.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
thsinar
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2008, 08:12:34 AM »
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Welcome Bernard.

Yes, difficult to do something against weak currencies.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

Thanks for the prices.

Most people living in the EU will probably find them to be on the reasonnable side of expensive, it hurts being in Japan, but Sinar is for sure not reponsible for that.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219588\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2008, 08:14:32 AM »
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I live in Europe using Hy6/e75 but I find the artTec camera price absolutly unreasonable! it's a shame!


Quote
Thierry,

Thanks for the prices.

Most people living in the EU will probably find them to be on the reasonnable side of expensive, it hurts being in Japan, but Sinar is for sure not reponsible for that.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219588\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Kumar
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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2008, 08:27:34 AM »
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Welcome Bernard.

Yes, difficult to do something against weak currencies.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219592\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Maybe Sinar can give the local distributor a special price to be passed on to the customer?  

Cheers,
Kumar
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thsinar
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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2008, 09:03:16 AM »
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hi Kumar,

I don't know if you have noticed:

- the arTec - eMotion 54 bundle is a "bargain" price and reduced considerably from the normal list price of the different components of this kit.

- the arTec - eMotion 75 bundle price has been reduced as well significantly.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Maybe Sinar can give the local distributor a special price to be passed on to the customer?  

Cheers,
Kumar
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219595\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2008, 09:26:56 AM »
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hi Kumar,

I don't know if you have noticed:

- the arTec - eMotion 54 bundle is a "bargain" price and reduced considerably from the normal list price of the different components of this kit.

- the arTec - eMotion 75 bundle price has been reduced as well significantly.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219603\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The bundle price with the 22MP back is a fair deal however the list price on the body alone is very steep IMO.

It appears to be a pretty high price penalty for those that have V mount backs (like myself .
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rainer_v
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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2008, 09:30:04 AM »
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I live in Europe using Hy6/e75 but I find the artTec camera price absolutly unreasonable! it's a shame!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219593\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i dont agree.
although i think its a shame in which direction went all this crazy, fast race to higher megapixels, joined with price tags far above the possibilities of even good earning photographers in some fields of work ( e.g. in architecture work ). buti dont think its very important if the CAMERA cost 1000€ or even € 2000,-- more or less than other offers cause it is , together with the optics, the part of the gear which has not to be changes for relative long time. and a good planned camera  is much more important i.m.o. as if one  pay several thousand of $ or € just for upgrading the lcd or marginally the iso performance of the digital back.
further: if you compare the price with the alpas you will see that the final price ( after adapting some lenses and including all the things as viewer, groundglas etc ) ends in a similar region than the arctec. but as i said above,- i dont think its the most important point here.
you guys here can attack me for this position because i expressed it also in discussions with sinar.
i asked not to make compromises in cost of quality with the arctec because its me believe that the camera has to be the center point for my work as architecture photographer, as are the lenses.
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rainer viertlböck
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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2008, 09:56:08 AM »
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Thierry for the folks in the US. Is there a price difference and such. Maybe the better question to ask is this by region or by the Euro and whatever that exchange rate seems to be.
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jimgolden
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« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2008, 09:28:49 PM »
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based on these Euro rates it's about $30k USD for the 54 w/ 2 lenses not cheap, but not bad either for such a specialized camera - if this were the only body you needed...
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Dustbak
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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2008, 05:21:27 AM »
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Thierry,


If I would buy:

493.23.000 Sinar arTec (7'226.-) Oct. 08  

What would I get with this? Do I only need to obtain one or more lenses and am I in business or do I also need to buy separately:

Groundglass, finder, sliding back adapter, etc...

Now, I am doing more interior work and plan to move more into that direction (after doing fashion accessories for 5 years I kind of had it by now). Multishot is very nice for interior work I found out but this means with equipment like the Artec I would need electronic shutters. Any possibilities for that that are also interchangeable with lets say a P3 (planning on getting one of those for the more demanding table top jobs especially if I can combine glass work)?
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 05:21:51 AM by Dustbak » Logged
thsinar
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« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2008, 06:07:45 AM »
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Dear Dustback,

I have listed the scope of delivery of each item, respectively bundle, above in my 1st post and below the prices.

The Sinar arTec (493.23.000) includes following items:

552.23.100 Sinar arTec
551.32.086 Focusing Magnifier
493.23.504 Metallic Format Mask 75
475.45.036 Sturdy Sinar arTec Case with dedicated liner

So yes, the ground-glass IS included, even a magnifier. And yes, the sliding back is also included, being part of the camera itself. No other things needed so far, except for the lens(es).

For the time being, the multishot Sinarbacks are not implemented, respectively there is no adapter for the eVolution 75 H yet. I can't give an ETA for this.

Hope this answers.
Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,
If I would buy:

493.23.000 Sinar arTec (7'226.-) Oct. 08 

What would I get with this? Do I only need to obtain one or more lenses and am I in business or do I also need to buy separately:

Groundglass, finder, sliding back adapter, etc...

Now, I am doing more interior work and plan to move more into that direction (after doing fashion accessories for 5 years I kind of had it by now). Multishot is very nice for interior work I found out but this means with equipment like the Artec I would need electronic shutters. Any possibilities for that that are also interchangeable with lets say a P3 (planning on getting one of those for the more demanding table top jobs especially if I can combine glass work)?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219934\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2008, 06:31:40 AM »
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I completely agree with Tierrey regarding the statement that the foundation of the system - body/lenses - is where the budget should be stretched, not just the digital back.  Backs will come and go but the components that we hang the back on should be selected to have longevity.

I for one sold my film gear/8,000 line drum scanner when the P45 arrived in the market.  With extensive testing, I found that at 39MP, carefully exposed and post processed, there isn't much that I can't do with a 39MP back.  And if I find I want more resolution, I put on a long lens and using the Really Right Stuff Panorama contraption, I shoot off multiple frames and stitch them in CS3.  Frankly, in many situations the longer lens stitched image produces far better resolution/detail than a single shot WA on a higher pixel count digital back.

Thus, with the announcements of backs of 50MP and above, I'm having a hard time getting excited about them.  Economics 101 is valid in many ways;  Margin of Diminishing Returns:  After a certain point, increased cost renders less feature utility return per dollar spent.

Below is a cut from a spreadsheet I've built to give me a summary of the advantages/disadvantages and cost consequences of the cameras I'm currently evaluating for purchase.  I recently sold my MFD camera(H2) and back(P45+) with the plan to someday  purchase a tech camera and digital back.  When I sold the MFD package, I figured it would be a year or so till I had the opportunity/time to consider, but circumstances have changed and I'm ready today, or more likely after PhotoKina introductions are all announced, to make the purchase.

Based on Fridays exchange rates, here are some interesting competitive costs to consider:
Candidate:      Advantages      Value to me
Cambo WRS1000      Vertical Shift = +40mm, 25mm/15mm      Excellent
      Horizontal Shift = 40mm, +20/-20mm      Excellent
      Tilt:  None      
      Full Geared Operation      Yes
      Body Weight =  1.2 kilos or 2.6#      Excellent
      Body Size:  w= 6.1 inches;  h =6.5 inches;  d= ? inch      Great!
      Cost Estimate:      Retail:
      Cambo WRS1000:      $2,780
      Viewfinder:      $790
      Digital back mounting plate:      $475
      Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/XL 35mm Lens:      $3,999
      Tripod Mount:      Included
      Hand Grips:      Included ?
      Total:      $8,044
            
Alpa 12MAX      Vertical Shift = 43mm; 25mm rise, 18mm fall      Adequate
with 35mm      Horizontal Shift = 36mm: +/- 18mm      Adequate
      Tilt:  None      
      Full Geared Operation      Yes
      Body Weight: 1134 gramms or 2.5#      Excellent
      Body Size: w= 8.11 inches, hight= 6.88 inches; d= 1.3 inches      
      Cost Estimate:      Retail:
      12 Max       $5,397
      Hand Grips, Soft Touch Black      $457
      Viewfinder:      $1,372
      Digital back mounting plate:      $956
      Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/XL 35mm Lens:      $4,671
      Tripod Mount:      Included
      Total:      $12,853
            
Sinar arTec      Vertical Shift = +25/-15 mm      
      Horizontal Shift = +20/-20      
      Tilt = +/- 5 degrees      
      Full Geared Operation ?      
      Body Weigh = 1450 gramms or 3.2#      
      Body Size: 27cm x 19m x 7cm / 10.6 in x 7.48 in x 2.76 in      
      Cost Estimate:      Retail:
      arTec with sliding back, focusing magnifier, mask, case:      10308
      Viewfinder:      N/A
      Digital back mounting plate:      ?
      Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/XL 35mm Lens:      $4,221
      Tripod Mount:      Included
      Total:      $14,529
            
Alpa SWA      Vertical Shift = 25 mm, RISE ONLY      
      Horizontal Shift - None!      
      Tilt:  None      
      Full Geared Operation      
      Body Weight:  770 gramms or 1.7#      
      Body Size: w: 7.1 inches, h: 4.72 inches , d: 1.85 inches      
      Cost Estimate:      Retail:
      SWA model with Phase cable hand grips      $4,522
      Viewfinder:      $1,372
      Digital back mounting plate:      $956
      Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/XL 35mm Lens:      $4,671
      Tripod Mount:      
      Total:      $11,521

Attached, I hope, is the actual spreadsheet in Excel/Mac format.

Now, this is offered in the spirit of sharing and not to start a verbal range war.  It is meant to
give a RELATIVE cost to features comparison.

All figures are subject to error and corrections, this is just my personal guideline to assist
me in defining the respective camera body/lens feature returns by company and model.

Thought someone might find it useful in their own quest,
Jack
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 08:59:09 AM by Lust4Life » Logged

thsinar
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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2008, 06:48:08 AM »
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hi Jack,

thanks for this, very helpful. Let me simply correct/add what is missing concerning the arTec (see below in bold).

And then, though I do a 100% agree with the statement, it does not come from myself, but from Rainer Viertlböck. But yes, I really think that it makes sense to keep this in mind.

Quote
I completely agree with Tierrey regarding the statement that the foundation of the system - body/lenses - is where the budget should be stretched, not just the digital back.  Backs will come and go but the components that we hang the back on should be selected to have longevity.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219941\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Quote
Sinar arTec  Vertical Shift = +25/-15 mm   (40mm)   
  Horizontal Shift = +20/-20  (40mm)
  Tilt = +/- 5 degrees 
  Full Geared Operation ?  YES
  Body Weigh = 1450 gramms or 3.2#  (with sliding adapter, which is part of the camera)
  Body Size: 27cm x 19m x 7cm / 10.6 in x 7.48 in x 2.76 in   
  Cost Estimate:  Retail:
  arTec with sliding back, focusing magnifier, mask, case:  10308
  Viewfinder:  N/A     (ground-glass with loupe/magnifer included)
  Digital back mounting plate:  yes, with the back
  Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/XL 35mm Lens:  $4,221
  Tripod Mount:  Included
  Total:  $14,529
   
Alpa SWA  Vertical Shift = 25 mm, RISE ONLY 
  Horizontal Shift - None! 
  Tilt:  None 
  Full Geared Operation 
  Body Weight:  770 gramms or 1.7# 
  Body Size: w: 7.1 inches, h: 4.72 inches , d: 1.85 inches 
  Cost Estimate:  Retail:
  SWA model with Phase cable hand grips  $4,522
  Viewfinder:  $1,372
  Digital back mounting plate:  $956
  Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/XL 35mm Lens:  $4,671
  Tripod Mount: 
  Total:  $11,521

Attached, I hope, is the actual spreadsheet in Excel/Mac format.

Now, this is offered in the spirit of sharing and not to start a verbal range war.  It is meant to
give a RELATIVE cost to features comparison.

All figures are subject to error and corrections, this is just my personal guideline to assist
me in defining the respective camera body/lens feature returns by company and model.

Thought someone might find it useful in their own quest,
Jack
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219941\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Best regards,
Thierry
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 06:48:39 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2008, 07:01:40 AM »
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Thierry,

Thanks for the corrections!

Jack Brady



Quote
hi Jack,

thanks for this, very helpful. Let me simply correct/add what is missing concerning the arTec (see below in bold).

And then, though I do a 100% agree with the statement, it does not come from myself, but from Rainer Viertlböck. But yes, I really think that it makes sense to keep this in mind.
Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219944\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2008, 08:00:50 AM »
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Dear Dustback,

I have listed the scope of delivery of each item, respectively bundle, above in my 1st post and
For the time being, the multishot Sinarbacks are not implemented, respectively there is no adapter for the eVolution 75 H yet. I can't give an ETA for this.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219939\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thierry,

I have the multishot back (with V mount) no 75H adapter is no problem but can I use it with the existing lenses and are they interchangeable with the ones you can use on the P3 (without having to remount lensboards and shutters etc..)?
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« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2008, 08:46:18 AM »
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Hi Thierry,

If you could enlighten me.

When the Artec was announced two months ago, only the Hy6/Afi mount was to be supported. Today we learn that the Hasselblad V mount will be supported, and that other mounts may be supported at some point of time in the future.

I acknowledge that Sinar is a relatively small company, and that resources must be allocated to more urgent tasks. But after the designers understood what Rainer wanted, and started work on it, didn't they take into account the feasibilty of supporting a particular mount? I ask because Rainer says "also it wasnt clear if this can be done technically." On this camera at least, there are no electronic interfaces, except for the cable to the lens. AFAIK, it's a simple mechanical interface that Sinar has been making for many years now. And what happens to all the Sinarback users with Contax and Mamiya mounts? They have to keep changing mounts every time they want to take some pictures with the Mamiya?

Cheers,
Kumar
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 08:46:55 AM by Kumar » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2008, 09:02:20 AM »
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Dear Dustback,

let me a couple of days to answer this precisely: I have to ask our product manager what can and what cannot be done.

But for sure: the current lenses for the p3 camera, the CPL (Copal shutter) would at least to get a focusing ring as well as adjusted to infinity. This is obviously also true for the same p3 lenses in CMV (Central Magnetic Shutter) and CAB (Automatic) mounts.

best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

I have the multishot back (with V mount) no 75H adapter is no problem but can I use it with the existing lenses and are they interchangeable with the ones you can use on the P3 (without having to remount lensboards and shutters etc..)?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=219954\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2008, 09:55:56 AM »
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Hi Kumar,

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Hi Thierry,

If you could enlighten me.
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I shall try.

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When the Artec was announced two months ago, only the Hy6/Afi mount was to be supported. Today we learn that the Hasselblad V mount will be supported, and that other mounts may be supported at some point of time in the future.
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At the date when I announced the Sinar arTec I said following, concerning backs in V and H mount (quote):

"Not yet planed"

In the meantime, the camera has been finished, starting to go in production, and the team dedicated to its design can now handle other issues.

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I acknowledge that Sinar is a relatively small company, and that resources must be allocated to more urgent tasks.
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Yes, this is a must, to set priorities and to concentrate then on these, and nothing else.

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But after the designers understood what Rainer wanted, and started work on it, didn't they take into account the feasibilty of supporting a particular mount?
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see above: it is one think to discuss around a table and then implement something. Priorities have to be set.

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I ask because Rainer says "also it wasnt clear if this can be done technically." On this camera at least, there are no electronic interfaces, except for the cable to the lens. AFAIK, it's a simple mechanical interface that Sinar has been making for many years now.
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Not only. There are other issues to look for, when it comes to feasibility, like if there is enough distance to have "infinity" focus.

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And what happens to all the Sinarback users with Contax and Mamiya mounts? They have to keep changing mounts every time they want to take some pictures with the Mamiya?

Cheers,
Kumar
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We won't announce something which is not yet decided and then checked out if feasible (or vice-versa).

Best regards,
Thierry
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 09:56:36 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
rainer_v
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« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2008, 10:39:37 AM »
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Hi Thierry,
And what happens to all the Sinarback users with Contax and Mamiya mounts? They have to keep changing mounts every time they want to take some pictures with the Mamiya?

Cheers,
Kumar
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this is what i do in any case ... and i dont see a great disadvantage here.
i use in germany  a sinar m and in spain ( where is my 2. point of live ) a contax. so i have to use different mounts quiet often. its not a big deal to change the mounts ( actually three screws ) and i`d prefer to change mounts than not to have the rotatable option, which wouldnt be possible with a contax mount in any case, as i suppose.
it would be more practical to work with the HY and the arctec with the same mount... but at the moment i wouldnt like to miss at least the M  ( maybe soon i will sell the contax system  .... ).
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 10:39:52 AM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
architecture photographer
munich / germany

www.tangential.de
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