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Author Topic: New HP z3200 printer  (Read 26527 times)
William Morse
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« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2008, 04:40:27 PM »
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Hi George-

Not sure how much more specific I can be. I haven't printed with any of the printers you listed, with either the 3100 or the 3200.

But to reiterate. Ilford GFS has bronzing (bad) on the 3100, does not on the 3200 (with increased GE). Innova Fiba glossy the same, but somewhat less of a problem with the 3100. Harmon gloss the same. HP paper that I've used on both include the Satin Pro and the ID gloss. Both have a very little bronzing on the z3100, none on the 3200.

For me, the big news is that the GFS, which I like alot, is not useable IMO with my 3100, but looks great from the 3200. Also, as I have reported elsewhere, I like the new HP Baryte (wish they'd spell it like normal people!) alot for both color and B&W.

HTH,

Bill

Quote from: georgek
Hi Bill,

Can you please specify the papers you're talking about? I've been using Epson Premium Luster, Epson Semi Gloss, Epson Gloss and Hahnemuehle Fine Art Baryta with my Z3100ps GP and I haven't seen any bronzing...

Best regards
George
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circuit
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« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2008, 05:12:37 PM »
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Quote from: William Morse
Hi Claire-

yes, I have been printing on gloss media with both the z3100 and z3200. Media have included Ilford GFS. Innova fibagloss (several varieties), Hp papers, and others.

With the 3100, some papers were good, others not so. the GFS showed alot of bronzing. The harmon Gloss FB AL showed bronzing, and some surface marks. with the 3200, I have printed on GFS, the new HP baryte paper, and the Innovas. I have seen no marks on any of these papers, although if you are concerned, I would definately try a test on your papers before buying.

In addition to the marks, bronzing was still a problem on many papers with the 3100. The biggest change, for me, after the improved reds, of the 3200 was the ability to vary the amount of GE on the gloss papers. I found that after upping the GE, I was able to print well without bronzing on all of the papers that failed that test on the z3100.

I'm glad they took back the 3100. Did they say how much more, if any, you would have to pay for the 3200?

Hope this helps,

Bill

Thanks for your reply Bill. It was helpful. I am testing a Z3200 tomorrow and certainly will be trying the HP Premium ID Gloss and Satin papers. I will post results to the group. I sincerely hope the star-wheel marks become a non-issue with this new version; the other improvements you mention sound substantial and encouraging.
Cheers.
Claire
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William Morse
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« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2008, 06:02:56 PM »
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Hi Claire-

I would not base your tests solely on the ID papers, as they are thinner and less likely to show marks, and since they are HP papers, they are less likely to show Bronzing and the other image problems. If you can, try to test at least one of the 3rd party Fine-Art papers, like from innova, GFS, or Hahnemuhle. If you do, try to get them to make a new paper type, and increase the GE a little more than the default.

Let us know what you find out.

Bill

Quote from: circuit
Thanks for your reply Bill. It was helpful. I am testing a Z3200 tomorrow and certainly will be trying the HP Premium ID Gloss and Satin papers. I will post results to the group. I sincerely hope the star-wheel marks become a non-issue with this new version; the other improvements you mention sound substantial and encouraging.
Cheers.
Claire
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marty m
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« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2008, 10:32:18 PM »
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Quote from: William Morse
Nice "discovery"! As the printers were not even announced until less than a month ago, clearly anyone who has one has been testing it! Sheesh! I have to say, I resent your attitude. I would OTOH agree that anyone who recieves a free printer should definately disclose that, as it gives us more info. . .Marty, you've clearly got a big axe of your own to grind; it would be helpful if instead of running other members comments down, you clearly state your own opinion of the various options available to us.
Wlliam:

Whose posting did you read and respond to?  You seriously need to read these postings more carefully, and not just tear off a response that doesn't speak to the points that are made.  Because you certainly did not respond to what I wrote.  Here is what I said about you:  "William Morse, to his credit, voluntarily disclosed in a different thread that he received the Z3200 on a free loan from HP, and I commend him for doing so.  Anyone else who is singing the virtues of the Z3200, and did not purchase the printer with their own hard-earned cash, should do the same."

I didn't criticize you, I COMMENDED you.  So before you respond, read the comments more carefully.

As to your other point -- that you agree that anyone who receives a free printer either temporarily or permanently should disclose that.  My point exactly.  No one has done so except for you. In addition, you are flatly asserting that anyone who already has the printer clearly received it for testing, and I assume that means for free either on a temporary or permanent basis.  Well, that means there are others who have NOT disclosed that.  I call that a conflict of interest.  They need to follow your example, and openly state their arrangement with HP.  See my comments above that they are not in a position to respond with indignation, because unlike you, they did not honestly disclose their arrangement with HP.

Finally, I did not say that your views aren't legitimate or sincere.  In point of fact, I said this:  "At the outset, let me note that a person who receives free equipment might have sincere and positive comments."  My main point that you ignored was this, and is about the unstated and sharply negative reviews from those who receive free equipment, and that will likely never be posted here:  "But a less important and not publicly known individual could get cut off from free merchandise in a nanosecond after posting a sharply critical review. It is silly and just plain naive to try to tell us that is not the case. Such a person is far more likely to only share an extremely critical review on a private basis with HP and never post it here. Again, that person won't bite the hand that feeds them.  And that would result in a skewed set of publicly posted positive reviews in this or any other forum. Which is why, for HP, this is a great way to ensure positive comments in reviews and on this forum. Providing merchandise for free -- either permanently or on a semi-permanent "loan" -- will do wonders with regards to guaranteeing rave reviews."

Finally, you asked what my own views are on HP.  My views on HP have already been stated on this forum.  If you  want to know my views, just search on past postings.  For the record, I paid for my printer, and I am not employed in any business related to photography or graphic arts.  No conflict of interest in my case.  Out of deference to my fellow forum members, there is no reason to repeat all of that here.

BUT FOR THOSE WHO ARE CONSIDERING THE PURCHASE OF A Z3200 I WILL BRIEFLY REPEAT TWO POINTS:

(1)  Based upon the TOTALITY of all comments posted on this forum in the last two years about Epson, Canon and HP, it is quite clear that Epson has far superior customer and tech support.  HP receives many more complaints, and there are many more reports of problems with tech and customer support.  There are far fewer negative reports about Epson.  (And also fewer about Canon, specifically in the last year, as Canon appears to have improved in that regard, based on reports on this forum.)

Do NOT take my word for it -- and do NOT consider isolated or anecdotal comments from the HP fan club who will defend their purchase (or their free printer) until the end of time.  

READ ALL OF THE POSTINGS -- ALL OF THE POSTINGS -- AND JUDGE FOR YOURSELF.

For that matter, just scan the topics and subject headings.  They speak for themselves and pretty well tell the story of all the problems with HP and their tech/customer support.

For starters, read the reports on the new firmware, and how the version for Windows wasn't posted, and Windows users had to download the Mac version.  That alone speaks poorly for HP and is pretty remarkable.  That has been happening for weeks, with endless complaints in this forum. Even more noteworthy, the new firmware allegedly caused serious hardware failures on early models of the Z3100.  If those reports are accurate, and the hardware failure is not a coincidence (unlikely since it happened to two individuals and involved the same exact part) then that constitutes a text book case of incompetent tech support, since the firmware allegedly damaged the printer itself.

(2)  In the case of the combined purchase of the Z3100 and the APS, and even after taking into account free paper or rebates, HP cut the price by an astonishing $800 in the first three months.  Given that the economy is facing a down turn, it is likely that sales of consumer equipment will suffer.  If past experience is a guide, HP may cut the price by $800 or more in the first three to six months.  My advice is to not buy a Z3200 immediately, and wait at least six months to see if HP cuts the price dramatically after only three months as HP did previously. Unless, of course, money is no object -- and you have money to burn.

Waiting patiently will also allow you to read the reviews of the new Epson printer when it is released.  We only have a few isolated reports on the performance of that printer.  The new Epson is likely to be superior to either the 3100 or the 3200 based on early reports, but there haven't been any side-by-side comparisons that I'm aware of.  It also might sell for about the same price, but at that price not include a spectro.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 12:38:41 AM by marty m » Logged
neil snape
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« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2008, 12:09:06 AM »
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Quote from: georgek
Hi Bill,

Can you please specify the papers you're talking about? I've been using Epson Premium Luster, Epson Semi Gloss, Epson Gloss and Hahnemuehle Fine Art Baryta with my Z3100ps GP and I haven't seen any bronzing...

Best regards
George
With the mentioned papers, I doubt you'd see any problems, other than the Hahnemuhle if you don't use GE.
With all the other Barytas, if you don't use GE you will see some bronzing and gloss diff in varying amounts if you don't use GE.
They did not change anything in the grey inks so other than the interplay of the new red, there will still be quality problems on non OEM papers. Yet, big disclaimer here: take a close look at your third party paper stand if you have a chance and you'll see problems with your other favourite brands of printers too.

What HP needs is have someone to collect all the papers in the top selling spots and analyse them with a trained look at what they can do>then post it. Just saying this xxx paper works for me is simply not enough.

I did just this for one paper. Not even close to taking it as far as I would have liked to, yet it still took many many hours of testing, and a lot of ink. So with this you might also realise that the sum of the amount of testing to do so would be very important for any person  to this type of report.
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dkeyes
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« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2008, 12:54:53 PM »
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Quote from: marty m
(2)  In the case of the combined purchase of the Z3100 and the APS, and even after taking into account free paper or rebates, HP cut the price by an astonishing $800 in the first three months.  Given that the economy is facing a down turn, it is likely that sales of consumer equipment will suffer.  If past experience is a guide, HP may cut the price by $800 or more in the first three to six months.  My advice is to not buy a Z3200 immediately, and wait at least six months to see if HP cuts the price dramatically after only three months as HP did previously. Unless, of course, money is no object -- and you have money to burn.

Waiting patiently will also allow you to read the reviews of the new Epson printer when it is released.  We only have a few isolated reports on the performance of that printer.  The new Epson is likely to be superior to either the 3100 or the 3200 based on early reports, but there haven't been any side-by-side comparisons that I'm aware of.  It also might sell for about the same price, but at that price not include a spectro.

Waiting to buy is always good advice but HP's price drop in the past is not unique. Bottom line, buy something new when you need it (can't do without it). It applies to computers, cars, digital camers, cell phones, TVs, printers and many other products. A 10-15% discount or more after the first 3-6 months of a new product is the norm, not the exception. The slower the product is moving (like a new competitor in a new market segment), the quicker/deeper the discount. (Have you seen car prices recently?) My opinion, not based on tallying posts or searching the net, is based on 20 years as a graphic designer working with marketing depts. who have operated just as I have mentioned.

Also beware of the myth that newer is better. I believe the printer technology is so good now that we are already seeing diminishing returns on image quality vs. time spent to improve that quality. Saying a new printer is likely to be superior in IQ to another, at this stage in the technology is too strong a word for all but very specific examples of images on specific papers for each printer. Reliability, support and results on your favorite papers are probably the most important decisions to make (as many have posted about).
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hsmeets
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« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2008, 01:59:18 PM »
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Marty,

about your remark #1:
A logical explination can be that, for an unknown reason, this forum is visited relatively much more by people that have HP printers then ownwers of Epson or Canon's. Another reason could be that HP buyers are more vocal about things they don't like and Canon buyers are too shy to speak up :-).

The point a want to make is: you can't never judge product quality based on what people vent on a forum, it's allways biased, statistical unsound, for reason we cannot control.

about your remark #2:
in such a modus one can wait forever, or just wait for the next update, perhaps the Z3300 (just kidd'n   ), It's a personal choice, when I bought my printer I payed 2100 euro's, today, 8 months later it can be had for less then 1400 euro's. I knew this would likely happen, but I could also have died yesterday and I would have missed out on the fun I had last few months....

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hsmeets
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« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2008, 02:06:32 PM »
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Quote from: dkeyes
...snip... I believe the printer technology is so good now that we are already seeing diminishing returns on image quality vs. time spent to improve that quality. Saying a new printer is likely to be superior in IQ to another, at this stage in the technology is too strong a word for all but very specific examples of images on specific papers for each printer. Reliability, support and results on your favorite papers are probably the most important decisions to make (as many have posted about).

O so true!

I visited Photokina and at the Innova booth they showed the same photo printed on different printers Epson 11-something, Canon 6100 and HP Z3200, okay the prints looked different but was one better then the other? My Very Humble Opinion: NO, not at all, at best it's a matter of taste.

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neil snape
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« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2008, 02:19:23 PM »
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Quote from: hsmeets
O so true!

I visited Photokina and at the Innova booth they showed the same photo printed on different printers Epson 11-something, Canon 6100 and HP Z3200, okay the prints looked different but was one better then the other? My Very Humble Opinion: NO, not at all, at best it's a matter of taste.


Innova had a Z3200 a Canon 6100, Epson 7900, and x8800 series too.

Agreed on most prints they would be similar , as they should be, at long as everything is working as expected.

At the time of release of the Canon and HP pigment printers the improvements were going to be small over the next releases. This has proven true for printers. Where big advances are made are in media. They definitely show huge differences between brands and types like never before.
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Roscolo
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« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2008, 02:45:51 PM »
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If the z3100's are drastically marked down to make way for the z3200, if I were buying today, I would jump on one of those z3100's. The z3200 doesn't look to be drastically different from the z3100, more just a tweak to go from excellent to just a bit better than excellent. YMMV.

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Geoff Wittig
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« Reply #50 on: October 14, 2008, 05:32:56 PM »
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Quote from: dkeyes
Also beware of the myth that newer is better. I believe the printer technology is so good now that we are already seeing diminishing returns on image quality vs. time spent to improve that quality. Saying a new printer is likely to be superior in IQ to another, at this stage in the technology is too strong a word for all but very specific examples of images on specific papers for each printer. Reliability, support and results on your favorite papers are probably the most important decisions to make (as many have posted about).


Exactly so. We're now at the point where image quality is so very high with wide format printers from all 3 of the big players that it's essentially pixel peeping on paper. You can expend an awful lot of time, money and effort exploring every new paper offering or inkset in search of printing nirvana (I know; I've tried!). Or, you can settle on an optimal media combination that really works for your images, and get to work producing your art. It's no different from folks back in the darkroom days spending endless hours on test strips and evaluating different developer/film combinations to optimize the grain/sharpness balance. Sooner or later you have to move on to productive printing, or you're just playing around.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
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Gerryb
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« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2008, 09:38:57 AM »
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Hi Guys, this is my first posting,so I hope I have it right!

I am considering purchasing a Z3100 or the new Z3200. I noticed that some of the prices mentioned here are as low as 1400 euro's for the Z3100. Can you tell me where this offer is available? I live in Dublin,Ireland.

thanks,

Gerry

Quote from: hsmeets
Marty,

about your remark #1:
A logical explination can be that, for an unknown reason, this forum is visited relatively much more by people that have HP printers then ownwers of Epson or Canon's. Another reason could be that HP buyers are more vocal about things they don't like and Canon buyers are too shy to speak up :-).

The point a want to make is: you can't never judge product quality based on what people vent on a forum, it's allways biased, statistical unsound, for reason we cannot control.

about your remark #2:
in such a modus one can wait forever, or just wait for the next update, perhaps the Z3300 (just kidd'n   ), It's a personal choice, when I bought my printer I payed 2100 euro's, today, 8 months later it can be had for less then 1400 euro's. I knew this would likely happen, but I could also have died yesterday and I would have missed out on the fun I had last few months....
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hsmeets
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« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2008, 10:35:16 AM »
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Quote from: Gerryb
Hi Guys, this is my first posting,so I hope I have it right!

I am considering purchasing a Z3100 or the new Z3200. I noticed that some of the prices mentioned here are as low as 1400 euro's for the Z3100. Can you tell me where this offer is available? I live in Dublin,Ireland.

thanks,

Gerry

Gerry,

sorry that I seem to have implied I bought a Z3100, it was a Canon iPF5100 (17") I bought here in the Netherlands, currently going as low as 1400,--  The Canon 6100 (24") trade for round and about 2500,--

www.fotokonijnenberg.nl / www.kamera-express.nl

I have no further affiliation with both shops other than beeing a customer.
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« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2008, 02:13:28 PM »
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Hey All,
   We have had a Z3200 in the office for a little while now and I'm quite impressed. I'm going to be posting a review on our website sometime next week. I'll cut to the chase and say that in one sense the updates are minor, and yet at the same time they have a non trivial impact on the printer as a whole. Almost all of the issues associated with the Z3100 have been addressed. The modification of the Red is fairly drastic, comparing 9880 prints to the Z3200 the differences are quite noticeable. I've actually done some testing of the Epson 7900 too and while I'm going to hold of an real comparison's of the color gamut until Epson finalizes the shipping firmware/drivers the Z3200 looks like it's going to be a strong performer. So far looks like the star wheel marks are a non issue. One of the main differences is the degree of control offered in the "media set" creation, the option to have star wheels "up" or "down" as well as controlling the amount of ink and gloss enhancer is a real improvement and should allow better results on a wider range of 3rd party medias. I don't know if this was answered but the Chromatic Red comes with a new print head as well so sorry no easy way to switch out the Z3100 inks with the newer inks....trust me it was the first thing i thought of. Any way, I'll post a link when the review is up, hopefully the Epson 7900 review will follow a week or so later.
   Oh and I'm sorry to have to agree with bold blue type but I have to completely disagree that Epson has "far superior" support. I've worked with Epson and HP closely for years and they both have their problems. I also might suggest that a good reseller (any good reseller) should be able to solve many problems before going to the OEM, and if needed will help to expedite and resolve problems as they arise. That said I wont let HP totally them off the hook, or Epson either, where they do have problems. HP's wait times can be quite frustrating. That said their onsite support has been consistently strong, and if you get to the right level of support they are usually quite helpful. Over all though it has not been my experience that Epson offers drastically better support. Just my opinion.

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Julian Mussi

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chris anderson
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« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2008, 05:45:32 PM »
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do you still have to remove the print heads occasinally, to clean them to prevent them from dripping blobs on prints?
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« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2008, 05:47:02 PM »
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I've never had that happen yet.
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alan a
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« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2008, 07:58:10 PM »
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Quote from: Mussi_Spectraflow
I've actually done some testing of the Epson 7900 too and while I'm going to hold of an real comparison's of the color gamut until Epson finalizes the shipping firmware/drivers the Z3200 looks like it's going to be a strong performer. Any way, I'll post a link when the review is up, hopefully the Epson 7900 review will follow a week or so later.
   Oh and I'm sorry to have to agree with bold blue type but I have to completely disagree that Epson has "far superior" support. Just my opinion.
It would be really helpful if you included a really candid and forthright comparison of the two printers.  There are always many glowing reviews that are posted, each one focusing on why this particular printer or camera is the greatest known to mankind.  What we, the consumers, really need is an honest comparison of the different models.  

UPDATE ON POST -- I have deleted my long list of questions and moved them to a new thread that specifically compares the two printers.  Neil Snape suggested that I should have started a new topic.  Neil is correct, so I did so.  I apologize for any confusion that doing so may cause.

I hope you won't just post two gushing reviews for both.  One review, that candidly covers both printers and their relative strengths and weaknesses, would be a very valuable service.

And thanks for the response on Epson versus HP on customer service.  But I think Marty has a point.  Others have noted that forums tend to include reports of problems more than positive experiences.  OK, those with gripes may complain louder, and Marty may have over done it with bold and blue.

But Marty, to his credit, didn't ask us to believe him, or to agree only with his own opinion.  He urged us to look at all of the postings in this forum and we should judge for ourselves.  I did that, and my impression is that he has a point, as there are more complaints and reported problems about HP than about Epson.  The fact that those with positive experiences may not post is not really the point.  I accept that those who have no problems -- with either HP or Epson -- don't post here.  But those who post with problems do it more frequently with HP than Epson.  Based on my own quick review of the postings -- I accepted Marty's challenge and judged for myself -- that appears to be true even if you don't count any of Marty's postings.

So let me go back to my request.  The HP Z3200 may sell for about the same price as the new Epson 7900.  The HP has a spectro built in at that price and Epson does not.  But I already own a separate spectro.  So, considering the reports on the forum about HP, I want to know how the Epson 7900 actually compares to the HP Z3200 as a mechanical unit, how it handles paper, how it loads, how fact it prints, and how the color gamut and quality of the prints compares.

An honest comparison would be a great service for all of us.  Again, based on your past postings and technical expertise, I think Julian is the best person to provide it.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 07:39:51 AM by alan a » Logged
Mussi_Spectraflow
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« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2008, 08:06:26 PM »
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Quote from: kaelaria
I've never had that happen yet.
Yeah had two Z3100's in the office for over a year and never had that happen either. One customer did have that problem on the first set of heads which were found to be defective and were replaced. hmmm actually now that you mention it I do recall seeing a bit of ink dropped on a print once...I ust went back and reviewed a bunch of past prints and in one of the old ones there are two small drops of ink, maybe this is what you saw. I think this happened after the printer had been off for some time, and I haven't noticed this since (in many hundreds of prints). I think you have some defective heads or something else is amiss, I would call HP support or your reseller and have that addressed. This is not part of the normal upkeep.
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Julian Mussi

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« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2008, 08:45:05 PM »
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Alan,
    I posted a review of the Z3100 when it came out and all of your issues were covered. Not sure where this can currently be found, our website is being overhauled this weekend. This review while not a complete rewrite will be a overhaul of the Z3100 review. It will also be updated with comparisons and the conclusions will be revised to account for industry wide changes. I have my biases like any reviewer. but I have owned both Epson's and HP's both personally and professionally, and I have relationships with members of their sales and tech teams and know very good people on both sides. I don't have as close a relationship with Canon in the print arena, I can only judge on my limited experience, and so tend to keep my mouth shut. Any way, what I'm trying to say is that if I say something glowing about a product it's because I think it's great, not because it has a sticker on it that says Epson or HP. And dont worry if I think something is a bad idea (like sticking the roll feed on the back of a printer) I'll say it. I will however make these two separate reviews, too much info, and the 7990 is still not finalized so gamut projections are hard to nail down. I will make references to the competition in each review so I think you'll get what your looking for. Also, Marty, don't mean to come down too hard on you. I know some people have had awful experiences with HP, not trying to deny that. It's just with such a large organization the quality of the tech support varies by department, year, and product. If you do have a problem by all means make yourself heard, it is true that people do monitor the forums from time to time and they listen to the complains, and do try and address them. I just still cant agree that Epson overall is that much better, but again just my opinion. One last note, the Z3200 was perhaps one of the most radically different printers that HP had released to this date and that is what most of the discussions centered around. The Epson's line has more or less seen a careful evolution since the 7/9600 was released and so a lot of the bugs have been worked out and now they are a fairly stable and known entity. I will say that the strength of a product can potentially be gauged by how often you have to call tech support in the first place, in that respect I think that Epson's professional line is very strong.
Also if anyone has any additional info they would like please let me know by Monday and I'll try and address it. Please PM me if you want to discuss offline as well.
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Julian Mussi

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alan a
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« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2008, 10:49:32 PM »
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Quote from: Mussi_Spectraflow
Alan,
 Any way, what I'm trying to say is that if I say something glowing about a product it's because I think it's great, not because it has a sticker on it that says Epson or HP. And dont worry if I think something is a bad idea (like sticking the roll feed on the back of a printer) I'll say it. I will however make these two separate reviews, too much info, and the 7990 is still not finalized so gamut projections are hard to nail down. I will make references to the competition in each review so I think you'll get what your looking for.
I didn't mean to suggest anything critical with regards to you, and apologize if you took it that way.  What I was trying to say is that I hoped you wouldn't just write two reviews that focus on the positive aspects of the two printers without making any comparisons, because that is not nearly as useful.  There will be plenty of positive reviews of the two printers, and the reviews will praise their many positive features.  But that still leaves those of us who are considering which one to buy at a loss.

Here is the bottom line. You have both printers.  Very few people have both.  You can compare both.  Even fewer are qualified to compare both.  You are.

So I am hoping you do just that, for those  of us who are looking at both.  If you can make comparisons in both reviews, and comment on how one compares to the other, that would be great.  If that is based on beta drivers, I still think it is fair to do so, with that stated stipulation.

Thanks very much.
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