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Author Topic: Check out the news section on the Leaf website  (Read 8472 times)
bradleygibson
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« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2008, 08:02:37 PM »
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As Thierry already commented, more information and details will be available soon and we believe that both companies as well as the photographers will benefit from this agreement.

Yair
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Sounds interesting--I think this could be a very good thing.

The AFi-II 10 (aside from the unweildly name) is really compelling.  I'll be glad to see more tilt-screen and possibly internally rotating sensor-based offerings on the market.

Looking forward to seeing the fruits of this effort!

-Brad
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 09:08:19 PM by bradleygibson » Logged

AndreNapier
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« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2008, 08:29:07 PM »
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Huh?

I don't get it.  Didn't Leaf already have the Hy6, AFI, Rollei (whew) camera?

What's changed other than sharing costs.



JR
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James
This whole upgrade and alliances is very confusing.
When I wrote my comment I was under the impression that quoting Yair I will be able to upgrade A75s to AptusII7 for $7000,
and then just buy a Rollei/Sinar camera body and put the back on it.
I am not intending to spend another 30K upgrade for camera/Db that does not offer any better sensor nor improved ISO nor faster shooting nor real wi-fi. All the improvements are too minor to justify this kind of money. Beside next year there will be another Leaf upgrade for a mere 30K for AFi3 that will offer 3 point focusing.  I reached the end of the line with Leaf. I am seriously looking at Hasselblad as it seem that they seriously want me as a client.
Andre
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James R Russell
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« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2008, 11:28:34 PM »
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Sounds interesting--I think this could be a very good thing.


-Brad
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I don't think it's a bad thing, or a good thing.  Other than I find it somewhat intersting.   It really is kind of like reading Toyota will sell GM some motors in a joint owned factory . . . except at least when GM and Toyota write a press release they're fairly clear on what they are going to do.

Once again, I just don't understand medium format and their marketing.  It's confusing at best and for a segment that seems to be fighting for market share, I think before i would add anything that even got close to confusion I would make sure the deal is signed, dotted, passed through legal and then distributed to the potential customers with how it will exactly effect and benifit them.

I know I joke about the medium format guys meeting in some undisclosed location to plan the future of photography but at some point I guess they do, other than the location is Cologne.

Still, I guess it makes no difference what logo is on the front of the camera as long as it works, but I thoght photokina was suppose to be a place to show new euqipment, not just pdfs.

Maybe it's both.

The really strange thing is one month ago it seemed Sinar and Leaf were diehard competitors both fighting turf wars, now I guess they're partners of some type.

Same with Leica and Phase, you would think that both offering 30mpx cameras they would be after the same market, but now they are alligned, though once again whatever that means nobody knows.

Actually the only clear message in medium format right now is Hasselblad.  They list their lineup, they list their prices, they list their lenses ready to purchase and they've lowered thier prices.

Then again who knows, maybe in 2 days Hasselblad will form an alliance with Contax.  After all Contax is sitll around  . . . right?

JR
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 11:35:03 PM by James R Russell » Logged

Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2008, 11:29:20 PM »
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Speculation 5

Sinar are great engineers - ie builders of mechanical devices - the whole digital thing never really worked for them

Leaf have no engineering skill - they are an electronics company -

Sinar backs will fade away and Leaf will get an increased R+D budget to try and keep up with blad (and phase)

Sinar of course have wierd distribution and marketing too - they need help on that front from someone vaguely competent like Leaf


SMM
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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uaiomex
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« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2008, 11:47:14 PM »
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Under this diagram it looks like a perfect marriage.
They only need to hire a superb marketing agency to work it out. Nasa maybe?  China Space agency?

It only took for Hassellad that Walter Schirra take it into orbit, to become the most desirable and prestigious camera on earth.
Marketing trick or maybe indeed it was purchased by Schirra's own will from a camera shop in Houston. God knows.

Eduardo



 
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Speculation 5

Sinar are great engineers - ie builders of mechanical devices - the whole digital thing never really worked for them

Leaf have no engineering skill - they are an electronics company -

Sinar backs will fade away and Leaf will get an increased R+D budget to try and keep up with blad (and phase)

Sinar of course have wierd distribution and marketing too - they need help on that front from someone vaguely competent like Leaf
SMM
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bradleygibson
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« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2008, 12:06:24 AM »
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EPd, Interesting speculation--particularly #2...  (#1's interesting too-I wouldn't have thought of that).

In any case, on a rare occasion or two I am privy to some of these strategic alliances in this industry (but not this one).  And from my experience I can say that because these alliances can be so broad, it can be next to impossible to guess with any certainty what each party hopes to gain, why they might want it, or what each actually gains.

As a guy who is relatively new to MF, and has been through a Hassy V, Mamiya, Hassy H and now has a Sinar (and who looked very closely at Leaf and Contax), I can say that each company definitely has its strengths.

Between Sinar and Leaf, I would say that Leaf has the superior workflow.  I would also say that the Jenoptik/Sinar camp are being very responsive to their customers and innovating (for example the Hy6 project, revolving backs, arTec, Hy6-65 and so on).

One way this could play out (particularly with scenario #2 in mind) is to allow each to play to their strengths and create an even stronger whole.  For example, I doubt that Sinar's 50+ Mpxl offering would have also offered a tilt screen without this agreement (not saying that it will now either, but some earlier messages seem to point toward that possibility).

Given Hasselblad's aggressive moves and the Phase/Mamiya+Phase/Leica collaboration in such a small market, I think Sinar & Leaf will benefit each other, gain efficiency and boost their competitiveness.

I'm cautiously optimistic about this one--it has a lot of interesting potential--certainly for me as a Hy6 (aka AFi aka Rolleiflex ) owner.

-Brad
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 12:11:02 AM by bradleygibson » Logged

EricWHiss
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« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2008, 12:52:32 AM »
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How's that called where the people see the storm coming and lash all their boats together to avoid drifting off or sinking?      Mostly kidding.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 12:54:52 AM by EricWHiss » Logged

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robert zimmerman
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« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2008, 02:05:17 AM »
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It all sounds rather silly to me. Three brands already share the same camera; Rolleiflex, Sinar and Leaf. Now the are shareing the digital end...
It would seem like the most reasonable thing to do would be to merge the companies and put all power they have into DROPPING PRICES and competing with Hasselblad.

All this strategic alliance bull does is give one the feeling that things are going in the wrong direction and these companies are grabbing straws.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 02:05:40 AM by kipling » Logged
Carl Glover
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« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2008, 02:35:34 AM »
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A word of reassurance: Hy6 (AFi) sells well enough to have F&H produce at their maximum capacity and they are now contracting new workers to assist. Number of Hy6 cameras that are shipped each month is about double of the best sales figures they ever had for the Rolleiflex 6008.

I'm not surprised. The Hy6 is a great camera. I have found it to work on an almost instinctive level which makes my life a lot simpler when out in the field - the ergonomics are very well thought out.
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jing q
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« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2008, 03:03:31 AM »
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I think this means that they're all going to send their accessories to the same factory to have their logos stamped.
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robert zimmerman
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« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2008, 03:11:54 AM »
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A word of reassurance: Hy6 (AFi) sells well enough to have F&H produce at their maximum capacity and they are now contracting new workers to assist. Number of Hy6 cameras that are shipped each month is about double of the best sales figures they ever had for the Rolleiflex 6008.
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It's all relative. Given that Rollei never sold on a substancial level and that F&H all but disapeared before the Hy6, I'd say it's a good thing and nice to hear. But, the question is what are they trying to achieve? I suspect a substancial portion of the professional camera market. And if so, why not end all the waisted revenue and energie and make it one camera plattform, one brand, one software, one line of digital componentents, one lens line, one marketing campaign, one world wide network of dealers and support and use the revenue they save to lower the prices. It would be a win win situation for everyone.

Just name the whole plattform Rolleiflex X1. Leaf and Sinar sell it together. Period.
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rainer_v
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« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2008, 05:05:14 AM »
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i think this marriage is very positive.

i was wondering the last days,- more so after the 5dmks and the S2 announcements,- how this mf thing will go on,- more and more player in a market who will have increasing pressure from the lower end.
i think lower prices are nice for us, as long the companies survive. digital studio and architecture shooters even really NEED the mf systems, together with cameras and lenses as you only find in the mf segment. there is no offer in the mass market, from canon and nikon ( and hasselblad? ) . from the bigger players come only compromises ( as mediocre or submediocres shift lenses ) but no hiend solutions.
phase  still seem to look hand-wringing for a camera system. they couldnt join in th hy6 deal, but they knew they need urgently a camera system, as sinar/leaf and hasselblad have.
its obviously that the mamiya cooperation is not working very well, and i doubt that leica will bring the solution for phase. ( contax? sems so that kyocere still is not willed to give the brand free again,- and although its a very nice system and all who use it like it,- its not on par with a modern system either. there should have to be created a new camera as well, if the brand could be reactivated. )

sinar and leaf were working together in the beginning days of digital, so they have a longer history together. i see many fields where they could exchange their technologies and save a lot of money, than to invent the wheel separate and to compete.
both together can form a really strong company, probably the best in the market. offering  cameras for studio (P, sinar m ) , architecture ( arctec ) , fashion ( hy6-afi )
and backs as the new sinar 30 mp, the afi7 and e75 and the leaf 60 mp back.
they really have all, including a big distributor network.

this cooperation can work fine, as i believe.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 05:05:46 AM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2008, 06:51:22 AM »
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Rainer/Thierry,

Rainer - I appreciate your confidence in the undefined strategic alliance, but to my thinking we have four  iterations of the same tool - Hasselblad, Leaf, Sinar, Phase.  Take each and you'll find advantages and disadvantages.  

When price is on a relatively level plane between competitors, the purchase decision is made by the individuals ability to mold their thinking/workflow to the approach that best fits with their mindset and workplace needs.

What we now have with the new Hasselblad strategy is a SUBSTANTIAL differential in price from the new level that Hasselblad has taken the initive to establish compared to Leaf/Sinar/Phase pricing tier.  Hasselblad has a distinct advantage over Leaf/Sinar/Phase at this moment.  

Until Leaf, Sinar and Phase "get competitive" on price, few will base a purchase decision on "strategic alliance" issues, particularly those who are in touch with what is going on in the economy.

I would have suggested to Leaf/Sinar/Phase that a direct action be taken to meet, or if possible go beyond, the price level that Hasselblad has now set rather than tossing into the market a press release that frankly says very little for the perspective buyer to base a purchase decision on.

In todays market where all players offer "adequate" solutions, it's now going to become decisions based on  economics/cost of purchase.  All of the players have gear/support/marketing that is "adequate".  Any good photographer has the ability to make ANY of the current system work.  As Rainer' success illustrates, he's earned a handsome living "working around" the prior iterations of equipment we had to choose from.  With arTec he states he no longer has to "work around", but at what cost in dollars is that worth to each of us?  Some gear is better in one area but then they loose it in another - the purchase decision is all about compromise.  

The current situation reminds me of the challenges I faced in the computer industry - on pushing new chip sets/hardware/software into the market when the equipments level of sophistication has reached a level that is defined by many users as "good enough to do the job".  At that point it become an issue of value for the dollar, and you had better be in right budget zone of your consumer if you want to sell product!

The longer Leaf/Sinar/Phase wait to adjust their prices the more time Hasselblad has to "imprint" on the market mindset that they are the top dog who is sensitive to the buyers economic situation.

Leaf/Sinar/Phase do have the distinct advantage over the H3DII logic of digital back - use it only on a Hassie!  Many of us want an open digital back to move to an Alpa, Cambo, or what every for what ever reason we may individually have.  Maybe just the sensation of "freedom" to choose what front end we want to mate up with our expensive digital back component.  

In short, my advice to Leaf/Sinar/Phase is to wake up and get your prices in line first, then market the hell out of having an open system.  I could give a flip less about undefined strategic alliances,

Respectfully submitted for your consideration.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 02:21:51 PM by Lust4Life » Logged

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