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Author Topic: Snapshots from the Sinar booth at Photokina  (Read 14615 times)
ynp
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« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2008, 05:40:29 PM »
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There was the eVolution 75h on the p3. The camera was instaled on a very nice Foba motorized stand,operated from the CatureShop. (both , the stand and the 75h).
Yevgeny
p[quo name='Nicolas Flamel' date='Oct 8 2008, 12:57 AM' post='227534']
Hello, Thierry! If you do not mind I have some questions:

 I do not see the Evolution back in your listing. Did Sinar not have shown that one? Maybe because it is still not working properly and they still did not manage to establish Exposure support for the 75H??  


Best regards

Nico, Berlin
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thsinar
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« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2008, 07:32:38 PM »
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Dear Nico,

I did forget to list the station with the eVolution 75 H Sinarback: it WAS displayed. It was mounted on a Sinar p3 camera, together with the Schneider shutter, on a setup.

The eVolution 75 H is integrated and supported by Sinar eXposure 6.1.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: Nicolas Flamel
Hello, Thierry! If you do not mind I have some questions:

 I do not see the Evolution back in your listing. Did Sinar not have shown that one? Maybe because it is still not working properly and they still did not manage to establish Exposure support for the 75H??  


Best regards

Nico, Berlin
« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 07:33:55 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2008, 12:49:12 AM »
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Quote from: thsinar
Dear Nico,

I did forget to list the station with the eVolution 75 H Sinarback: it WAS displayed. It was mounted on a Sinar p3 camera, together with the Schneider shutter, on a setup.

The eVolution 75 H is integrated and supported by Sinar eXposure 6.1.

Best regards,
Thierry

Sorry, Thierry, I missed that one. I am a bit annoyed bebause Exposure is still not available for the Evolution amd my 54M. And Capture Shop is still not working properly sometimes (Shortcuts do not work, crashdown when quitting...)
I am still waiting for the centerfold problem with the 75H which occasionally occurs  to be solved. And I wait for more than one year now! What I do see is that Sinar celebrate themselves and their new products whilst the old ones not all work as they should.

Best regards

Nico
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eronald
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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2008, 04:32:48 AM »
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Too many products. Maybe Sinar should just concentrate on revving the Hy6 body, get a royalty from Leaf, design and market lenses, provide after sales service for the mechanics, and get out of the back business where everyone redesigns electronics and software around the same sensors.

Edmund

Quote from: Nicolas Flamel
Sorry, Thierry, I missed that one. I am a bit annoyed bebause Exposure is still not available for the Evolution amd my 54M. And Capture Shop is still not working properly sometimes (Shortcuts do not work, crashdown when quitting...)
I am still waiting for the centerfold problem with the 75H which occasionally occurs  to be solved. And I wait for more than one year now! What I do see is that Sinar celebrate themselves and their new products whilst the old ones not all work as they should.

Best regards

Nico
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« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2008, 05:27:58 AM »
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Quote from: eronald
Too many products. Maybe Sinar should just concentrate on revving the Hy6 body, get a royalty from Leaf, design and market lenses, provide after sales service for the mechanics, and get out of the back business where everyone redesigns electronics and software around the same sensors.

Edmund

If Nikon and Canon release their version of MF Camera late this or next year, it will be
hard to deal with current/available MF market based on what's left on the table....

Hasselblad and Phase hold the edge so far obviously because they're available on every corner
of the world at any time...

However, Hy6 is an excellent camera and I would make it available everywhere and to everyone.....
but to do that and not only reach every corner of the World.... to survive, Hy6 needs boost and PHASEONE could come handy!!!

Nothing against Leaf or Sinar since I own number of their systems too!!!
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 05:32:08 AM by Saša D. Karić » Logged
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« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2008, 06:21:47 AM »
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Dear Nico,

I am not sure what Sinar did celebrate or is celebrating.

Coming to your questions:

- I have informed that we have decided to release eXposure in 3 weeks, end of October: we wish to release BOTH Mac AND PC eXposure version 6.1 at the same time and all configurations have to be tested.

- as said, eXposure 6.1 does support the eVolution 75H.

Best regards,
Thierry



Quote from: Nicolas Flamel
Sorry, Thierry, I missed that one. I am a bit annoyed bebause Exposure is still not available for the Evolution amd my 54M. And Capture Shop is still not working properly sometimes (Shortcuts do not work, crashdown when quitting...)
I am still waiting for the centerfold problem with the 75H which occasionally occurs  to be solved. And I wait for more than one year now! What I do see is that Sinar celebrate themselves and their new products whilst the old ones not all work as they should.

Best regards

Nico
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2008, 08:45:27 AM »
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Quote from: eronald
Too many products. Maybe Sinar should just concentrate on revving the Hy6 body, get a royalty from Leaf, design and market lenses, provide after sales service for the mechanics, and get out of the back business where everyone redesigns electronics and software around the same sensors.

Edmund
I don't agree with you, Edmund.

People like to use the same material for a long time. Then could it be valuable for some works. It's impossible to buy new platforms every year.

The Hy6 is a very good material (I've tried it), but unusable for my job. I only work with a tecnical camera in 4 (or 16) shots mode. I would appreciate a best return of Sinar for this kind of material.

Sinar promised, two years ago, versions of eXposure for 54H and 43H backs. Whe are still waiting... They said they are too busy with the H6 !

PdF
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« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2008, 08:56:56 AM »
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Quote from: eronald
Too many products. Maybe Sinar should just concentrate on revving the Hy6 body, get a royalty from Leaf, design and market lenses, provide after sales service for the mechanics, and get out of the back business where everyone redesigns electronics and software around the same sensors.

A marriage made in Heaven:

1. Using CaptureOne software (the best).
2. Using Hy6 camera (very good).
3. Using Phase backs (with better LCD?).
4. USA presence (needed by Sinar).

I would welcome that.

I just don't see it happening, in this radically shrinking economy. Not enough volume. Like it or not, it's quickly becoming a 5DII world out there. I even heard my Dentist talking about the Canon recently. You KNOW it's bad when talk turns from Leica/Sinar to Canon. But with Universal Health Care coming soon, the Dentists will be back in business. Trust me, the entire country of Denmark and Sweden are banking on Obama.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 09:21:53 AM by gwhitf » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2008, 10:44:13 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
A marriage made in Heaven:

1. Using CaptureOne software (the best).
2. Using Hy6 camera (very good).
3. Using Phase backs (with better LCD?).
4. USA presence (needed by Sinar).

I would welcome that.

I just don't see it happening, in this radically shrinking economy. Not enough volume. Like it or not, it's quickly becoming a 5DII world out there. I even heard my Dentist talking about the Canon recently. You KNOW it's bad when talk turns from Leica/Sinar to Canon. But with Universal Health Care coming soon, the Dentists will be back in business. Trust me, the entire country of Denmark and Sweden are banking on Obama.


Be careful.  every time someone mentions a 5d, these forums go into catatonic fits about the loss of quality, the loss of standards, the low professionalism that the photography industry has sunk to.

Of course most of the people that soap box this aren't shooting large projects with millions of dollars, euros and pounds on the line in production and media.

Of course every professional photographer in the world will probably have a 5d Mark II in their bag in 3 months and if Nikon or Canon makes a medium format camera you can bet those will also sell off the shelf in record numbers.

Like it or not if you go into most studios in NY today, if medium format is being used it's probably on a Hasselblad camera with a Phase back, maybe a 1/3 to 1/4 using a Leaf or Hasselblad back.  You would have to search very hard to find someone using a Sinar and even further still to find someone using a mamiya 645, regardless if it's versions I, II, or III.

Once they go outside it usually with a Hasselblad camera or a Canon.  

These are the photographers that use the rental system and they really don't care or know anything about digital other than what the rental tech hands them.  Also these are the photographers that are producing the best work in the world, but even the best work in the world is getting hit hard on budget today.

Look at the background videos of every Vogue, Vanity Fare or Elle production and all you see are Canon and Hasselblad cameras.   No wonder Hasselblad wants part of that camera back business and if they keep dropping their prices, they're going to get it.

I don't look for medium format to die, but I do know that if the prices keep going up and projects become more limited, or budget restricted, then that goes all the way down the line to the tech who will also have to find ways to lower their overhead.  If Mamiya thinks any digital tech house is going to scrap their H1's and H2's  and  pay $4,000 for Mamiya lenses, or double that for Leica lenses,  then somebody is reading the wrong tea leaves.

Maybe not their backs, but Hasselblad cameras are the standard in the medium format world.  Now, Hasselblad has addressed costs, everybody else hasn't.    The only thing Hasselblad hasn't done is give a digital tech a reason to throw away their phase backs, because Hasselblad still has the same low iso, same sensors, even worse software than Phase one, so why change until the Phase backs wear out.

We can make all the wish lists we want, phase software, HY6 cameras, Hasselblad prices, but until any of this equipment is in the rental houses and digital tech firms it's all irrelevant.

Until Sinar has their software working, gets more presence in the rental world and finds a way not to take 2 years to make a cable release that camera will also be irrelevant.

Unless Phase wakes up and realizes that $41,000 digital backs, even with a free Mamiya won't fly in the new world economy, then they are trying very hard to make that brand irrelevant also.

Leaf and Sinar can make all the back room deals they want but rather than offer Sinar a deal on the new Leaf back, Leaf would be a lot better off offering the customer the same discount.

The whole hy6 system being limited to two brands of backs is just insane.  Prior to digital, nobody would have ever made an expensive film camera that only worked with Ilford and Agfa film.

That would have never cleared committee.

These forums are full of self interest.  Hasselblad lovers, Hasselblad haters, dealers, techs, manufacturer reps, seminar givers, lighting instructors and all of them want us to absolutely believe we can't make a photograph without spending another $15,000 for a new camera upgrade that doesn't do anything that much different than the previous model.

Today, it's all about money and getting the job done in the most efficient way possible.
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thsinar
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« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2008, 11:42:51 AM »
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Dear bcooter,

With all due respect, let me correct some points:

Quote from: bcooter
Until Sinar has their software working, gets more presence in the rental world and finds a way not to take 2 years to make a cable release that camera will also be irrelevant.
The software (eXposure) IS working and out: not all backs are integrated, but nevertheless you should try it out before bashing it down.

Quote from: bcooter
Leaf and Sinar can make all the back room deals they want but rather than offer Sinar a deal on the new Leaf back, Leaf would be a lot better off offering the customer the same discount.
Sinar DOES AS WELL have something to offer in this cooperation: read the press release carefully.

Quote from: bcooter
The whole hy6 system being limited to two brands of backs is just insane.  Prior to digital, nobody would have ever made an expensive film camera that only worked with Ilford and Agfa film.
I doubt the fault can be given to Sinar (understand Jenoptik) on this one.

Quote from: bcooter
These forums are full of self interest.  Hasselblad lovers, Hasselblad haters, dealers, techs, manufacturer reps, seminar givers, lighting instructors and all of them want us to absolutely believe we can't make a photograph without spending another $15,000 for a new camera upgrade that doesn't do anything that much different than the previous model.

Today, it's all about money and getting the job done in the most efficient way possible.
Your own opinion ("... manufacturer reps ... want us to believe ...") , I have heard different ones: as for myself, if I would have to act like this, I would not spend one minute on any forum, but rather go out, demonstrate and sell.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2008, 12:04:44 PM »
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Quote from: PdF
I don't agree with you, Edmund.

People like to use the same material for a long time. Then could it be valuable for some works. It's impossible to buy new platforms every year.

The Hy6 is a very good material (I've tried it), but unusable for my job. I only work with a tecnical camera in 4 (or 16) shots mode. I would appreciate a best return of Sinar for this kind of material.

Sinar promised, two years ago, versions of eXposure for 54H and 43H backs. Whe are still waiting... They said they are too busy with the H6 !

PdF

I'm sorry PDF - I meant they should drop the back side of things, stop releasing new backs. It simply doesn't make sense anymore to have different back models if more R&D s required for each.

Edmund
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« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2008, 12:18:18 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
A marriage made in Heaven:

1. Using CaptureOne software (the best).
2. Using Hy6 camera (very good).
3. Using Phase backs (with better LCD?).
4. USA presence (needed by Sinar).

I would welcome that.

I just don't see it happening, in this radically shrinking economy. Not enough volume. Like it or not, it's quickly becoming a 5DII world out there. I even heard my Dentist talking about the Canon recently. You KNOW it's bad when talk turns from Leica/Sinar to Canon. But with Universal Health Care coming soon, the Dentists will be back in business. Trust me, the entire country of Denmark and Sweden are banking on Obama.

I don't know about Denmark or Sweden, but when President Bush took office the world had a functioning economy and no major war. Now he's leaving office, there are two major wars, one in Afghanistan and one in Irak, with US airstrikes in a third country, Pakistan, on an everyday basis. Turkey, a NATO member, is now fighting an insurgency based in Iraqi Kurdistan but attacking inside Turkey, and armed with US weapons, which the US claims are misappropriated. America is frightened of terror attacks and with occasional reports of torture by US soldiers and contractors in black holes like Guantanamo, America has lost the moral high ground it could unreservedly claim in the year 2000. And the economy is in tatters, with high oil prices, major bank failures and house foreclosures by the hundreds of thousands. No one can say that Mr. Bush is responsible, but he sure has been unlucky. No wonder that observers in foreign countries hope that a new president, any new president, be it Obama or McCain will bring better management and better luck to a most deserving country. And better economic circumstances to the rest of the world. No politics involved - the guy has done a really bad job let's just hope he can be replaced before the damage gets too bad.

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 12:23:14 PM by eronald » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2008, 12:19:18 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Of course most of the people that soap box this aren't shooting large projects with millions of dollars, euros and pounds on the line in production and media.

Big Cooter,

Hall of Fame post. You live in the real world.

Yet, of course, Thierry fights every word you say.

That's why Sinar is where they're at.
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« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2008, 12:28:58 PM »
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gwhift,

Quote from: gwhitf
Yet, of course, Thierry fights every word you say.
Am not in war, even less fighting, simply spending my time to correct some either purposely or by mistake wrong information (about Sinar).


Quote from: gwhitf
That's why Sinar is where they're at.
And where is Sinar?

Best regards,
Thierry
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« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2008, 12:49:06 PM »
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Quote from: eronald
Too many products. Maybe Sinar should just concentrate on revving the Hy6 body, get a royalty from Leaf, design and market lenses, provide after sales service for the mechanics, and get out of the back business where everyone redesigns electronics and software around the same sensors.

Edmund

Why on earth would they do that? The latest eSprit 65 back is the most advanced medium format back yet made. If that is a sign of things to come from Sinar, maybe some of the other players should hang up their gloves. The fact that they don't have the biggest market share now is no indication of what could happen in the future, or the quality of their products now.
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« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2008, 01:06:16 PM »
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Quote from: Saša D. Karić
If Nikon and Canon release their version of MF Camera late this or next year, it will be
hard to deal with current/available MF market based on what's left on the table....

Why on earth do people keep assuming that Canikon will be able to take over the MF market just like that? Unlike all the other platforms, they will have no exisiting lenses, so they would need to launch a new platform with at least 5 or 6 lenses to begin with, and everything would have to be bought new (this is the problem Leica has with the S2). This already puts them at a massive disadvantage compared to the existing players. Then there is the issue of lens quality - how many people out there would trust Canon to make a wide angle lens that is sharp from corner to corner on a large sensor? You must be kidding. (Leica glass, on the other hand, will be taken very seriously). Or the 'per pixel' quality? They've never made a sensor to match the sheer IQ of even a 3 year old MFDB. They have a LOT to prove. If they feel that the whole industry will move to larger sensors then perhaps they will do it but I doubt the system will be anything to get excited about, and it won't be cheap. Not for many years at least.

Quote from: Saša D. Karić
Hasselblad and Phase hold the edge so far obviously because they're available on every corner of the world at any time...

Hmmm, there isn't a Hasselblad dealer or a Phase dealer in this country at all. Not all the world is like NY! Why does a dealer have to be next door anyway? I got my back couriered overnight from Germany. No big deal.

Quote from: Saša D. Karić
to survive, Hy6 needs boost and PHASEONE could come handy!!!

I doubt the Hy6 needs Phase at all. Look at the recent poll of which platform people would buy into if given the choice today, and the Hy6 leads the poll. Hasselblad and Phase got an early lead with past products (deservedly so), but they haven't done anything interesting lately if you ask me.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 01:36:03 PM by foto-z » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2008, 01:20:49 PM »
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Everyone should read bcooter's post quoted below.  Everyone thinking that a new back or camera system will better their photography should read the post.  Take everything you read on the web with a grain of salt. You have people on this board and all the other gear forums pushing their agenda one way or the other, which is different than sharing an opinion.  Its marketing, even if they don't work for a company.  They tell you how shitty the Canons are, how unworkable 1/125 sync is, how good photography can't be produced without a leaf shutter and at the minimum 31 megapixels.  When you see the work they produce with all this gear its technicaly good but really midling stuff.  Don't spend the money on a back if your book is lacking or you don't know how to light.  The difference between a 5D and a P30 aint that much.  If you need the quality of an MFDB for a job, rent.  If the budget doesn't allow for a big rental, well, the 5D2/5D/1ds/1ds2/1ds3/D1x etc will have to do.  And guess what?  If you shoot well and have a certain level of taste, your work will be well received.  A back and the whole system soaks up too much working capital. Spend the money on something that will improve your book.




Quote from: bcooter
Be careful.  every time someone mentions a 5d, these forums go into catatonic fits about the loss of quality, the loss of standards, the low professionalism that the photography industry has sunk to.

Of course most of the people that soap box this aren't shooting large projects with millions of dollars, euros and pounds on the line in production and media.

Of course every professional photographer in the world will probably have a 5d Mark II in their bag in 3 months and if Nikon or Canon makes a medium format camera you can bet those will also sell off the shelf in record numbers.

Like it or not if you go into most studios in NY today, if medium format is being used it's probably on a Hasselblad camera with a Phase back, maybe a 1/3 to 1/4 using a Leaf or Hasselblad back.  You would have to search very hard to find someone using a Sinar and even further still to find someone using a mamiya 645, regardless if it's versions I, II, or III.

Once they go outside it usually with a Hasselblad camera or a Canon.  

These are the photographers that use the rental system and they really don't care or know anything about digital other than what the rental tech hands them.  Also these are the photographers that are producing the best work in the world, but even the best work in the world is getting hit hard on budget today.

Look at the background videos of every Vogue, Vanity Fare or Elle production and all you see are Canon and Hasselblad cameras.   No wonder Hasselblad wants part of that camera back business and if they keep dropping their prices, they're going to get it.

I don't look for medium format to die, but I do know that if the prices keep going up and projects become more limited, or budget restricted, then that goes all the way down the line to the tech who will also have to find ways to lower their overhead.  If Mamiya thinks any digital tech house is going to scrap their H1's and H2's  and  pay $4,000 for Mamiya lenses, or double that for Leica lenses,  then somebody is reading the wrong tea leaves.

Maybe not their backs, but Hasselblad cameras are the standard in the medium format world.  Now, Hasselblad has addressed costs, everybody else hasn't.    The only thing Hasselblad hasn't done is give a digital tech a reason to throw away their phase backs, because Hasselblad still has the same low iso, same sensors, even worse software than Phase one, so why change until the Phase backs wear out.

We can make all the wish lists we want, phase software, HY6 cameras, Hasselblad prices, but until any of this equipment is in the rental houses and digital tech firms it's all irrelevant.

Until Sinar has their software working, gets more presence in the rental world and finds a way not to take 2 years to make a cable release that camera will also be irrelevant.

Unless Phase wakes up and realizes that $41,000 digital backs, even with a free Mamiya won't fly in the new world economy, then they are trying very hard to make that brand irrelevant also.

Leaf and Sinar can make all the back room deals they want but rather than offer Sinar a deal on the new Leaf back, Leaf would be a lot better off offering the customer the same discount.

The whole hy6 system being limited to two brands of backs is just insane.  Prior to digital, nobody would have ever made an expensive film camera that only worked with Ilford and Agfa film.

That would have never cleared committee.

These forums are full of self interest.  Hasselblad lovers, Hasselblad haters, dealers, techs, manufacturer reps, seminar givers, lighting instructors and all of them want us to absolutely believe we can't make a photograph without spending another $15,000 for a new camera upgrade that doesn't do anything that much different than the previous model.

Today, it's all about money and getting the job done in the most efficient way possible.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 01:25:08 PM by TMARK » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2008, 01:33:47 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Maybe not their backs, but Hasselblad cameras are the standard in the medium format world.

Standards can change, and quickly. It wasn't so long ago that the Hass H platform didn't even exist.

Quote from: bcooter
We can make all the wish lists we want, phase software, HY6 cameras, Hasselblad prices, but until any of this equipment is in the rental houses and digital tech firms it's all irrelevant.

A very US-centric point of view. I have yet to meet a photographer in Europe who rents his camera. They might exist but they are an insignificant minority. NY might be different, but even in the US not every city has a pro rental shop with MFDBs.

Quote from: bcooter
Until Sinar has their software working, gets more presence in the rental world and finds a way not to take 2 years to make a cable release that camera will also be irrelevant.

Sinar Exposure works fine, thanks. I used Capture One for years too, and I shave no preference for either. They both just work.

The cable release was up to F&H to produce, not Sinar.


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« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2008, 01:42:57 PM »
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Quote from: TMARK
If you need the quality of an MFDB for a job, rent.

Rentals are not easy to find in most parts of the world, but more importantly I think a photographer has no hope of getting the most out of a MFDB without spending quite some time with it, experimenting with the files and workflow, and testing the capabilities. Who wants to be playing around with an unfamiliar back on an important job?

I see it here time and time again - people try out a demo MFDB for a few hours and have all sorts of problems with processing the files. MFDBs are not made that way - they need lots of user input and in return you get the highest quality and flexibility. If you want an 'auto everything' camera, MFDB is not for you.
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« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2008, 02:02:35 PM »
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Quote from: eronald
I don't know about Denmark or Sweden, but when President Bush took office the world had a functioning economy and no major war. Now he's leaving office, there are two major wars, one in Afghanistan and one in Irak, with US airstrikes in a third country, Pakistan, on an everyday basis. Turkey, a NATO member, is now fighting an insurgency based in Iraqi Kurdistan but attacking inside Turkey, and armed with US weapons, which the US claims are misappropriated. America is frightened of terror attacks and with occasional reports of torture by US soldiers and contractors in black holes like Guantanamo, America has lost the moral high ground it could unreservedly claim in the year 2000. And the economy is in tatters, with high oil prices, major bank failures and house foreclosures by the hundreds of thousands. No one can say that Mr. Bush is responsible, but he sure has been unlucky. No wonder that observers in foreign countries hope that a new president, any new president, be it Obama or McCain will bring better management and better luck to a most deserving country. And better economic circumstances to the rest of the world. No politics involved - the guy has done a really bad job let's just hope he can be replaced before the damage gets too bad.

Edmund

hey dr. R.. thanks for the world analysis but who asked??  I will spare you my thoughts on the French and their moral terra firma on which they stand and you try to not pontificate..
 I realize that Europeans have things so buttoned-up and civilized so I know I am asking a lot to just sit back and watch us flounder.. but do try to contain your vast knowledge and insight, stick to what this forum is about.
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