Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Snapshots from the Sinar booth at Photokina  (Read 15091 times)
TMARK
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1841


« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2008, 02:28:23 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: foto-z
Rentals are not easy to find in most parts of the world, but more importantly I think a photographer has no hope of getting the most out of a MFDB without spending quite some time with it, experimenting with the files and workflow, and testing the capabilities. Who wants to be playing around with an unfamiliar back on an important job?

I see it here time and time again - people try out a demo MFDB for a few hours and have all sorts of problems with processing the files. MFDBs are not made that way - they need lots of user input and in return you get the highest quality and flexibility. If you want an 'auto everything' camera, MFDB is not for you.

Edited to add: This applies to fashion.  I know that other genres are different.

There is a benefit to owning, surely, but the type of production that requires and MFDB should have a budget for a tech and a retoucher.  The tech will tell you how to get the shot you want, while you can work with a retoucher who will develope the file to the look you want.  I'm not against ownership of a MFDB, I just want people to know its not important to making a good photograph, and more importantly, can actually be detrimental to acheiving a great photograph due to handling/iso/flexability issues.  An MFDB threatens a career as well, in that all that working calital is tied up in a back rather than in front of the camera.  You would do much better to produce some high end photography and shoot it with an RZ on Fuji 160C or a 5D/1ds/1ds2/1ds3/d2x and travel, go on look sees on another continent, shoot editorials on another continent.  That work will get you commercial jobs that pay more in three days than you made in your entire 20's.  Then buy a back, maybe.  It still doesn't make business sense to own.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 02:29:58 PM by TMARK » Logged
PdF
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 293



« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2008, 02:29:24 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: eronald
I'm sorry PDF - I meant they should drop the back side of things, stop releasing new backs. It simply doesn't make sense anymore to have different back models if more R&D s required for each.

Edmund
Thank you for this answer, Edmund : I totaly agree with your opinion.

PdF
Logged

PdF
froesner
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56


WWW
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2008, 02:40:16 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: paulmoorestudio
hey dr. R.. thanks for the world analysis but who asked??  I will spare you my thoughts on the French and their moral terra firma on which they stand and you try to not pontificate..
 I realize that Europeans have things so buttoned-up and civilized so I know I am asking a lot to just sit back and watch us flounder.. but do try to contain your vast knowledge and insight, stick to what this forum is about.

Paul

you are right about this forum not being another huffingtonpost.com - still you might agree that whenever something important happens in the US it ultimately has a strong effect on the rest of the world (Fannie / Freddie / Irak ...). So you may understand that Europeans have a hard time "sitting back"

Never mind

Frank
Logged
froesner
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56


WWW
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2008, 02:47:25 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: TMARK
Everyone should read bcooter's post quoted below.  Everyone thinking that a new back or camera system will better their photography should read the post.  Take everything you read on the web with a grain of salt. You have people on this board and all the other gear forums pushing their agenda one way or the other, which is different than sharing an opinion.  Its marketing, even if they don't work for a company.  They tell you how shitty the Canons are, how unworkable 1/125 sync is, how good photography can't be produced without a leaf shutter and at the minimum 31 megapixels.  When you see the work they produce with all this gear its technicaly good but really midling stuff.  Don't spend the money on a back if your book is lacking or you don't know how to light.  The difference between a 5D and a P30 aint that much.  If you need the quality of an MFDB for a job, rent.  If the budget doesn't allow for a big rental, well, the 5D2/5D/1ds/1ds2/1ds3/D1x etc will have to do.  And guess what?  If you shoot well and have a certain level of taste, your work will be well received.  A back and the whole system soaks up too much working capital. Spend the money on something that will improve your book.

TMARK & Bcooter - well said.

/Frank
Logged
Dean s24
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 18


WWW
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2008, 03:04:17 PM »
ReplyReply

I seem to remember that until now, all Sinar backs were adaptable to other camera manufacturers, and still are. Im no Phase or Hasselblad expert so correct me if i'm wrong but aren't or weren't they dedicated backs?
With reference to most of what you are saying, it boils down to Quality vs Money. I remember that most photographers bought their equipment based on the quality the equipment would produce and this is what created revenue, largely because people knew what quality was. now there is so much sacrifice in the digital market that everyone is debating about which camera system is better, when in fact it seems to be a justification of thier own equipment. My understanding is as it is the case where I'm from is that the client is uneducated or has a preference. Please dont get me wrong here, I am not slandering anyone but just saying the way i see it.

I live in South Africa where Photography and media is so minuscule compared to the US and Europe and we have a really small studio in comparison to other professional photographers in our city, yet the clients that leave us for photographers with a better name (through referrals and marketing), the client comes straight back because the other photographers could not give them the quality. We make our money! With regards to software, the Sinar software is probably the easiest to use because it is not an image manipulation tool in the sense that it does not allow you to add effects as you would in Photoshop. what would be the use of Photoshop then. Captureshop an eXposure allows the photographer to capture what the camera sees not what the photographer knows the client wants to see. If we are comparing film to digital here, since when did Ilford or Agfa allow you to decide whether to export your image with a preset!

Bottom line is that it boils down to quality, people can still see quality even if they are ignorant. Us as informed photographers know when software is compensating for camera shortfalls and lastly we all have our own preference of out-put.

Quote from: bcooter
The whole hy6 system being limited to two brands of backs is just insane.  Prior to digital, nobody would have ever made an expensive film camera that only worked with Ilford and Agfa film.
Logged

[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%']Dean Elliott[/span]
[span style='color:orange']dean@s24.co.za[/span]
[span style='color:orange']www.s24.co.za[/span]
paulmoorestudio
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 240


WWW
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2008, 03:08:00 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: froesner
Paul

you are right about this forum not being another huffingtonpost.com - still you might agree that whenever something important happens in the US it ultimately has a strong effect on the rest of the world (Fannie / Freddie / Irak ...). So you may understand that Europeans have a hard time "sitting back"

Never mind

Frank


yes we are all connected on some levels..and on that note, some good news for the americans.. the dollar getting stronger against the euro - should make it a small bit easier for me get that euro equipment I know I shouldn't want.. but do.

I had 2.5  of the last 3 years in europe and all the while I just sat there and listened to all the anti american dribble that gets put out there.. cause I was in their country, I would just let them spew..I guess now being back in the states, I don't have the stomach for it.  



Logged

froesner
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56


WWW
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2008, 03:11:19 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: paulmoorestudio
yes we are all connected on some levels..and on that note, some good news for the americans.. the dollar getting stronger against the euro - should make it a small bit easier for me get that euro equipment I know I shouldn't want.. but do.

I had 2.5  of the last 3 years in europe and all the while I just sat there and listened to all the anti american dribble that gets put out there.. cause I was in their country, I would just let them spew..I guess now being back in the states, I don't have the stomach for it.
No worries Paul,

not every European is anti american as well as not every american behaves as if they do not care about the rest of the planet

cheers

F.
Logged
froesner
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 56


WWW
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2008, 03:13:27 PM »
ReplyReply

... and I like your "Urban Landscape" portfolio

/F
Logged
Graham Mitchell
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2282



WWW
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2008, 03:25:58 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: TMARK
but the type of production that requires and MFDB should have a budget for a tech and a retoucher.

Wow, not in my world. I wish
Logged

Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
bcooter
Guest
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2008, 03:51:57 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: foto-z
Rentals are not easy to find in most parts of the world, but more importantly I think a photographer has no hope of getting the most out of a MFDB without spending quite some time with it, experimenting with the files and workflow, and testing the capabilities. Who wants to be playing around with an unfamiliar back on an important job?

I see it here time and time again - people try out a demo MFDB for a few hours and have all sorts of problems with processing the files. MFDBs are not made that way - they need lots of user input and in return you get the highest quality and flexibility. If you want an 'auto everything' camera, MFDB is not for you.


What you say is true and works for you, but I doubt if your Sinar's intended market, given that you are shopping for used lenses and still use a 6008.  If Sinar relies on your money they will go broke.

There is nothing wrong with your process and you should be commended if your making the photographs you want.

There is nothing wrong with buying any camera, lens, or digital back if you can afford it and it makes you feel good, but don't think a Sinar, Hasselblad, Phase, or Leaf is going to make anyone a better photographer.

There is nothing wrong with Sinar other than they are nowhere in the world of New York advertising and editorial and that may rub Theirry the wrong way, but Theirry needs to walk through the Piers and stick his nose into all of the studios and see how big a presence Sinar has.

As far as where money is allocated Theirry should talk to the digital lab or the box and just see how much they charge to work an image.  Then I think a lot of people here would understand where the real pixels meet the paper and it's not from the sensor, or the "pure" nature of capture shop.  It's from a team of three people working 8 hours each in photoshop for one image.

What gwhfithw (whatever) says makes sense in that he attempted to talk to someone at Sinar and buy a camera.  He sees it at Photokina and he wants to talk about buying it.

Then, all of a sudden it makes no sense because the camera can't be purchased now so it's off his radar.  All the makers should think about that the next time they start constructing displays for Photokina.  

Strike when the iron is hot.

Before you say that this comment is only U.S. centric, it's not, it's New York centric and like it or not New York is the capital of all advertising and editorial.  In all truth, I am sure there are more non U.S. born photographers trolling the streets than there are natives.  New York in the world of photography is the largest melting pot of anywhere on the planet and I don't think New York really believes that it is connected to anything but New York.

What I wrote is not to sabotage Sinar or medium format.   I wrote this  to sound the wake up call.  It is also not to say anything bad about the Hy6 it looks like a good camera but I know if the real truth be told F+H would jump through hoops to have a Phase One mount for their camera.  We all know they would sell many more cameras, lenses and accessories and with more resource, that cable release would probably only take two months instead of two years.

Out of this years Photokina the only real announcements that is relevant to what you can buy today is Hasselblad's price cuts.   Think about that for a moment and tell me who has the head start in the brave new world.




Logged
gwhitf
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 820


« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2008, 04:19:12 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: bcooter
Strike when the iron is hot.

Big Old Cooter speaks the truth.

B.O.C. lives in the world of advertising and money-making and demanding clients.

B.O.C. is not a Weekend Warrior.

By the time that Hy6 and 65 back are shipping in volume, there'll already be someone else, on the next streetcorner, waving THEIR flag, saying "We've got something new; it'll be here in four months!"

On and on and on; moving on to the next Shell Game.
Logged
bcooter
Guest
« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2008, 05:04:08 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: gwhitf
Big Old Cooter speaks the truth.

B.O.C. lives in the world of advertising and money-making and demanding clients.

B.O.C. is not a Weekend Warrior.

By the time that Hy6 and 65 back are shipping in volume, there'll already be someone else, on the next streetcorner, waving THEIR flag, saying "We've got something new; it'll be here in four months!"

On and on and on; moving on to the next Shell Game.

Other than Lehman Bros. nobody could dream up the world of medium format.  

A small and contracting market that keeps raising prices and limiting options, because they keep raising prices and limiting options.

Right now everybody's e-mail box is filing up with announcements of buy a p65+ today and receive a p45+ until you get your new P65+.   Now if this works, Lehman Bros. missed the boat because think about that idea.  Buy some stock today for full price, but less value than they are worth and we will give your better stocks sometime later, at a time of our choosing and to top it off we hope the new stocks are as good as the old ones.

Why not just buy a used P45, save yourself 20 grand and shoot some photos.  No client will know the difference and with that extra 20,000 you can shoot something really amazing.

Better still, why not just spend 41,000 on your portfolio (photography, not stock) and get some big paying jobs.

Hasselblad gets it, at least they get some of it.   Canon really gets it.  They give you a camera for 1/2 the price of the previous one and throw in video.  Yes I know, photographers don't care about video. Of course we all know that will change when the client says, either give us video or we get someone else.  Then that 3,000 dollar 5d2 will not only look like a good idea, it will pay for itself in the first 30 minutes of use.

And I almost forgot.  Real photographers don't care about little cameras.  It takes an RZ with some kind of adpapter to shoot a good photograph, that is until the rz jams or the previews turn green then out comes the Canon to finish the job.

Sure it takes a big camera, but someone needs to ask the world's most famous living photographer, Ms. Leibowitz what she works with and ask her assistants how many times she has tossed a big digital camera across the room.



Logged
eronald
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4026



« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2008, 06:15:38 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: bcooter
Out of this years Photokina the only real announcements that is relevant to what you can buy today is Hasselblad's price cuts.   Think about that for a moment and tell me who has the head start in the brave new world.

Question: WHo has the headstart ?
Answer: Canon, Nikon.
Proof Derivation: The $2.5K needed to buy a 5D MarkII or a D700 or the $1.5K for a Mark1 can be charged to an average credit card.

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 06:16:59 PM by eronald » Logged
tho_mas
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1696


« Reply #53 on: October 08, 2008, 06:25:10 PM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: foto-z
Hasselblad and Phase got an early lead with past products (deservedly so), but they haven't done anything interesting lately if you ask me.
As far as I followed what have been said here on the forum especially by high volume photographers Sinar adressed a lot of demands (...here on the forum).
So the package really seems to be very, very well equipped.
But honestly I can't see any invention DB wise. In camera DNG and JPEG is probably extremely useful for a lot of photographers and this is obviously a good step in usability.
But basically the other players can/could provide this by a free firmware update.
LCD... yes, if one really needs it and decides to switch the plattform for the LCD of Sinars DB that's certainly a vaild reason.
And I do not doubt at all that IQ is phenomenal.
And the Hy6... actually the Hy6 is the attraction from my point of view. If I would have enough money to spend in photo stuff I'd buy it just because of the 45° finder... because of the finder at all.

But the "inventions" - from my point of view - are Hasselblads integrated lens correction (a: great tool, b: great time saver) and the binning of the P65+ (though limited in use by now).
I believe we will hear a lot more about binnging. The new Sony A900 provides binning as well and can shoot at a quarter of the generic resolution.
And as improvements on this level are upgradable by firmware... you don't have to buy a new back for an increase in speed, ISO, dynamic range or other chip related features.
Basically you can have different speeds, ISO and file sizes all in one DB and upgrades will be made by updates.
I don't know whether the P65+ really has the capability to do that yet (and if not it's more than ever too expensive). But I think that's what will happen in the near future.
In the long term - even with regard to costs - by all means I think this is something interessing.
At least more interessting than in camera DNG (but to be honest ... someone first must clear up for me what the advantage of DNG really is).


Logged
thsinar
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2066


WWW
« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2008, 09:01:15 PM »
ReplyReply

bcooter,

let me first make a "disclaimer", for you and some others who may feel that I am taking it too seriously:

- I am not at all feeling rubbed the wrong way, nor do I take it personally, or am I mad/angry/upset/heated up when one thinks differently then myself and express it.
- I am too much enjoying my daughters and family since back from 2 stressful weeks at Photokina for knowing very well what is important and what is less.
- I do however claim for the right of answer when my name or Sinar's name is cited, like a person/company has the right of answer when being cited in a newspaper, for whatever reason.
- My opinion(s) on a subject do(es) engage only myself and are by no means intended to convince anybody that I am right.
- I am able to change my mind, when I am confronted with the truth and/or given the right arguments: it's long ago that I was 20 with the mindset to change the world.


Quote from: bcooter
There is nothing wrong with Sinar other than they are nowhere in the world of New York advertising and editorial and that may rub Theirry the wrong way, but Theirry needs to walk through the Piers and stick his nose into all of the studios and see how big a presence Sinar has.
I would not say the contrary, just repeat that we are trying to improve things and that things have changed already to a certain extend. In any case, you won't see me walking through the "Piers" in NYC. I am sticking my nose in enough studios in other parts of the world. I leave this job to others responsible for it. All I can (and do), is to forward such "suggestions".

Quote from: bcooter
As far as where money is allocated Theirry should talk to the digital lab or the box and just see how much they charge to work an image.  Then I think a lot of people here would understand where the real pixels meet the paper and it's not from the sensor, or the "pure" nature of capture shop.  It's from a team of three people working 8 hours each in photoshop for one image.
Quality of the data provided to the digital lab does have a significant influence on the retouching hours.

Quote from: bcooter
What gwhfithw (whatever) says makes sense in that he attempted to talk to someone at Sinar and buy a camera.  He sees it at Photokina and he wants to talk about buying it.
Then, all of a sudden it makes no sense because the camera can't be purchased now so it's off his radar.  All the makers should think about that the next time they start constructing displays for Photokina.  
Strike when the iron is hot.
In which way(s) is it a shame to show a product which is 2 or 3 weeks away from being delivered? I can't understand this argument. The camera system in question could be demonstrated and tested at Photokina and even ordered, if one really wanted (though I would as always suggest to make testings elsewhere than at the booth of an exhibition).

Quote from: bcooter
Before you say that this comment is only U.S. centric, it's not, it's New York centric and like it or not New York is the capital of all advertising and editorial.  In all truth, I am sure there are more non U.S. born photographers trolling the streets than there are natives.  New York in the world of photography is the largest melting pot of anywhere on the planet and I don't think New York really believes that it is connected to anything but New York.
It is somehow "US centric", and don't take it wrong, but yes, there is another world outside the US and NYC, however the USA/NYC an important place are.

Quote from: bcooter
What I wrote is not to sabotage Sinar or medium format.   I wrote this  to sound the wake up call.  It is also not to say anything bad about the Hy6 it looks like a good camera but I know if the real truth be told F+H would jump through hoops to have a Phase One mount for their camera.  We all know they would sell many more cameras, lenses and accessories and with more resource, that cable release would probably only take two months instead of two years.
F&H does not owe the camera, are only manufacturers of it and do not have the word to tell which mount the camera can have. If more would be sold is possibly true, but still pure speculation  for other reasons than market share.

Best regards,
Thierry
« Last Edit: October 09, 2008, 02:19:08 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
thsinar
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2066


WWW
« Reply #55 on: October 08, 2008, 09:17:48 PM »
ReplyReply

Dear tho_mas,

Quote from: tho_mas
But basically the other players can/could provide this by a free firmware update.
Not so, it needs a little more than just a firmware update: an internal QuadCore image processor for on-board processing of the files, among others.

Best regards,
Thierry
Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
rainer_v
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1130


WWW
« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2008, 01:45:11 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: thsinar
Dear tho_mas,


Not so, it needs a little more than just a firmware update: an internal QuadCore image processor for on-board processing of the files, among others.

Best regards,
Thierry
funny if some people think that the  mf market persists only ( or by majority ) from fashion photographers,
furter even mostly from US fashion photographers and finally only from US/  NY fashion photographers.

somehow egocentric. could it be?
that some NY guys think that there is no world outside NY and there is no world outside fashion
doesnt mean that the rest of the world agrees.
Logged

rainer viertlböck
architecture photographer
munich / germany

www.tangential.de
eronald
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4026



« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2008, 03:23:27 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: rainer_v
funny if some people think that the  mf market persists only ( or by majority ) from fashion photographers,
furter even mostly from US fashion photographers and finally only from US/  NY fashion photographers.

somehow egocentric. could it be?
that some NY guys think that there is no world outside NY and there is no world outside fashion
doesnt mean that the rest of the world agrees.


Actually the Japanese marriage photography market is probably large enough by itself to  support at least one MF body.

But at the moment film is still hanging on by its fingernails, and with it the MF film processing chain, and only when everybody has agreed that Fuji has sucked the last drop of blood out of that market will the Japanese camera manufacturers provide an alternative technology. That point will have arrived when Fuji start to market an own-branded DIGITAL MF solution in Japan.

Edmund
Logged
tho_mas
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1696


« Reply #58 on: October 09, 2008, 04:39:51 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: thsinar
Not so, it needs a little more than just a firmware update: an internal QuadCore image processor for on-board processing of the files, among others.
Ah okay?! So I was wrong with it. Thank you!
Logged
Saša D. Karić
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 40


WWW
« Reply #59 on: October 09, 2008, 09:55:20 AM »
ReplyReply

Quote from: foto-z
Why on earth do people keep assuming that Canikon will be able to take over the MF market just like that?

Obviously both (Nikon/Canon) have  Worldwide Network that could put in shame any MF company including Hasselblad,
so don't tell me they don't deserve at least the benefit of the doubt...

Quote from: foto-z
Unlike all the other platforms, they will have no exisiting lenses,

Why would they have existing lenses, I hope hat's not the law?

Quote from: foto-z
so they would need to launch a new platform with at least 5 or 6 lenses to begin with, and everything would have to be bought new

I thought all this time we are talking about the new platform that Nikon/Canon are and if they are about to release....  therefore, of course
at the beginning everything would have to be purchased new... but the price of the new equipment will probably be equal or less to second
hand Rollei, Hassy even some future old Mamiya lenses....

Is the quality going to be there? Both of us based on our expirience/trust with Canon at least can probably agree and say no or not sure....

However there should be some hope left...


Quote from: foto-z
(this is the problem Leica has with the S2).

You can't compare Leica to Nikon/Canon business wise for the obvious reasons!!!

Leica has other problems not publicly known (don't ask).... However if they do succeed, I'll be there to show my support and buy few...


Quote from: foto-z
This already puts them at a massive disadvantage compared to the existing players.

Not true as far as I'm concerned, but of course time will tell!!!

Quote from: foto-z
Then there is the issue of lens quality - how many people out there would trust Canon to make a wide angle lens that is sharp from corner to corner on a large sensor? You must be kidding.

You know my answer on this one already.... Listen, don't be loud with Canon and silent with Nikon who is an excelent WA performer  
as I said give them the benefit of the doubt....

Quote from: foto-z
(Leica glass, on the other hand, will be taken very seriously).
 

If you mean as far as the quality of their lenses? Yes I agree, everything else... I can only hope for!!!

Quote from: foto-z
Or the 'per pixel' quality? They've never made a sensor to match the sheer IQ of even a 3 year old MFDB. They have a LOT to prove. If they feel that the whole industry will move to larger sensors then perhaps they will do it but I doubt the system will be anything to get excited about, and it won't be cheap. Not for many years at least.

True... yet I own Leaf, Sinar, Hassy and Phase and still use them!!!

I don't personally expect any excitement in better quality although I hope they would come up with smaller size... even smaller lenses, something like Mamiya 7!!!

How cheap it will be, not sure... but probably cheaper than than any MF or Leica for sure!!!

Logged
Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad