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Author Topic: taking a step back from it all  (Read 4745 times)
woof75
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« on: September 26, 2008, 07:32:21 AM »
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I was going through some older landscapes yesterday shot with my P21 on a mamiya with the new Capture One 4 DB and I was really blown away by the image quality, just gorgeous. With all the fancy new announcements of all this new, expensive, untested equipment it's easy to get caught up with it all. Right now for cheaper than ever you can get rock solid digital backs that are performing better than ever because of the new software. It really is a great time for MF DB's just don't look at photokina for the good stuff, go for the tested stuff you know works, sure there's a couple of new bells and whistles but I have seen nothing that will improve image quality except for in massive prints. Another nice little benefit is those 18 mp files fly though a raw converter. I'm a very happy customer.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2008, 08:47:04 AM »
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I was going through some older landscapes yesterday shot with my P21 on a mamiya with the new Capture One 4 DB and I was really blown away by the image quality, just gorgeous. With all the fancy new announcements of all this new, expensive, untested equipment it's easy to get caught up with it all. Right now for cheaper than ever you can get rock solid digital backs that are performing better than ever because of the new software. It really is a great time for MF DB's just don't look at photokina for the good stuff, go for the tested stuff you know works, sure there's a couple of new bells and whistles but I have seen nothing that will improve image quality except for in massive prints. Another nice little benefit is those 18 mp files fly though a raw converter. I'm a very happy customer.
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When I joined Capture Integration I was blown away by how good of image quality you could get from an H25 (22 megapixel with no LCD from 2003). It had to be tethered, and the ISO range, long exposure, and speed were all pretty poor, but assuming you weren't concerned with those, then the H25 could create phenomenal images. There have been great advances since then, and now the P65+ will shoot to a CF card, capture almost three times the information, have less noise, more accurate color, more dynamic range, more flexibility in post, less moire, and can maintain speeds of 1 frame per second.

It's great to be nostalgic and looking forward to the future at the same time.  

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
[a href=\"http://www.captureintegration.com]Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer[/url]
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Snook
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« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2008, 08:53:42 AM »
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When I joined Capture Integration I was blown away by how good of image quality you could get from an H25 (22 megapixel with no LCD from 2003). It had to be tethered, and the ISO range, long exposure, and speed were all pretty poor, but assuming you weren't concerned with those, then the H25 could create phenomenal images. There have been great advances since then, and now the P65+ will shoot to a CF card, capture almost three times the information, have less noise, more accurate color, more dynamic range, more flexibility in post, less moire, and can maintain speeds of 1 frame per second.

It's great to be nostalgic and looking forward to the future at the same time. 

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
Personal Portfolio
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224598\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree with Woof and all this Megapixel race is a JOKE.
I bet Phase will sell VERY little P65's.
Why don't they try improving iso and the stupid LCD they sport. Come on now, How can the future still have the same lcd from the PAST.
2 Thumbs down for Phase...

Thank gosh where I live even a 5D is sufficient.
I just like the 30 meg for my own personal criteria....

With the future economy looking grim I think the sells of Expensive MFDB will also!
Good luck offloading those P65's...

Snook
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witz
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« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2008, 08:58:06 AM »
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The image quality has been there for a while.... here's a shot ( un-retouched ) from my old H20 on a very old hassy 2000fcm with a 50mm f2.8 wide open..... view here is full rez....



but.... the newer backs have some features and capabilities to allow one to do more and do it easier.

in fact... the only reason I upgraded from the h20 was because it would not work with the newer macbookpro without a firewire power supply.... the MBP's have less current out of the ports then the older powerbooks did......
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 08:59:09 AM by witz » Logged
Raphael
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« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2008, 09:05:42 AM »
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H20, very impressive indeed
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marcwilson
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« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2008, 10:50:32 AM »
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I've often looked at an H25 as a way into a medium format digital system, using both dslr and shift camera.
I work always on location, interior and exterior, and am tethered wherever possible, but feel for non 100% studio work its a bit risky not to have the lcd screen as backup in case the laptop goes down or location is just not laptopable.
Obviously no cf card not a huge problem as one could use an image bank.
Shame as the quality is obvious and the price really good!

If I worked 100% in studio then on a budget its a no brainer...I think.
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James R Russell
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« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2008, 10:57:27 AM »
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I was going through some older landscapes yesterday shot with my P21 on a mamiya with the new Capture One 4 DB and I was really blown away by the image quality, just gorgeous. With all the fancy new announcements of all this new, expensive, untested equipment it's easy to get caught up with it all. Right now for cheaper than ever you can get rock solid digital backs that are performing better than ever because of the new software. It really is a great time for MF DB's just don't look at photokina for the good stuff, go for the tested stuff you know works, sure there's a couple of new bells and whistles but I have seen nothing that will improve image quality except for in massive prints. Another nice little benefit is those 18 mp files fly though a raw converter. I'm a very happy customer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224579\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

To some extent I agree.   The P30 I briefly had worked just as well as the plus version.  Actually outside in bright light the lcd on the original p30 worked much better and the power draw on the back was less.

Neither really go over 400 iso that well, so other than slightly faster and more money, the p30 was a very good back.  Then again so is the p21+ and that' s getting close to Canon territory in price.




JR
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tho_mas
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« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2008, 11:41:42 AM »
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I agree with Woof and all this Megapixel race is a JOKE. (...)
Why don't they try improving iso and the stupid LCD they sport.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224599\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I honestly can't hear that anymore - not all are shooting people and fashion and have an art director standing behind them always telling what to do and asking to see every single image right after it was taken on a big LCD.
I do understand that this is very very essential for a lot of photographers. I really understand that!  But me I don't care about LCD, actually I need it to be sure that something was captured and to see the histogram. That's it. I donít care about the colors on any camera display (itís a joke!) nor the contrast nor the DOF. And the P+ display is good enough to judge about focussing. I don't want active cooling (the bigger the LCD the higher the temperature and the higher battery consumption is) and I love the very big knobs of the P-backs and the lean design. I donít want to bear around a Hy6 with that heavy back and monstrous lenses (though the quality of camera, back and lenses is beyond doubt terrific).
The P65+ is not a substitution for the 31MP Backs and actually I would agree that for a lot of jobs Phase should provide maybe one crop back model with 31MP and a bigger LCD and higher ISO. But I think working with a technical camera for architecture, landscape or for product shots in studio you definitely welcome the full frame chip, the higher resolution and you donít care that much about LCD as you manage it shooting tethered or entirely without any preview. In additionÖ what size a LCD must be to show a meaningfull image of a 60MP capture? 3íí? Itís a joke.

edit: and as to ISO - the binning of the P65+ is an improvement in ISO
« Last Edit: September 26, 2008, 11:43:56 AM by tho_mas » Logged
Snook
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« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2008, 12:05:23 PM »
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I honestly can't hear that anymore - not all are shooting people and fashion and have an art director standing behind them always telling what to do and asking to see every single image right after it was taken on a big LCD.
I do understand that this is very very essential for a lot of photographers. I really understand that!  But me I don't care about LCD, actually I need it to be sure that something was captured and to see the histogram. That's it. I donít care about the colors on any camera display (itís a joke!) nor the contrast nor the DOF. And the P+ display is good enough to judge about focussing. I don't want active cooling (the bigger the LCD the higher the temperature and the higher battery consumption is) and I love the very big knobs of the P-backs and the lean design. I donít want to bear around a Hy6 with that heavy back and monstrous lenses (though the quality of camera, back and lenses is beyond doubt terrific).
The P65+ is not a substitution for the 31MP Backs and actually I would agree that for a lot of jobs Phase should provide maybe one crop back model with 31MP and a bigger LCD and higher ISO. But I think working with a technical camera for architecture, landscape or for product shots in studio you definitely welcome the full frame chip, the higher resolution and you donít care that much about LCD as you manage it shooting tethered or entirely without any preview. In additionÖ what size a LCD must be to show a meaningfull image of a 60MP capture? 3íí? Itís a joke.

edit: and as to ISO - the binning of the P65+ is an improvement in ISO
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224672\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


First I do not just shoot fashion myself and many fashion images must be printed just as big as your Landscape/Technical camera pictures, so I do not see your point at all.
Second you are definitely not the Norm here for sure.
Thirdly thanks to you and maybe a couple dozen others Phase might sell some.
As far as the LCD... Funny how every other back maker keeps getting bigger and bigger and phase left that out.

I also do not care if a 2  ton truck can sit on my back or If can put it in a microwave either.Not too often I will be sitting inside a microwave taking pictures or under a 2 ton truck for that matter.
Maybe you take pictures of the tread of a 2 ton truck with your technical camera an may run the risk of it falling on your back..:+}
In any case I did not say that nobody wanted the P65 back.. I just doubt the sales are going to be through the roof either. UNLESS they lower there prices which have been stumped by hassleblad recently.

I also usually look at the Histogram but sure is ugly looking at some grainy/ pixelated image on the LCD.
Also about the art directors comment.. yeh comes with the territory, they are breed of their own. But hard to come up with a good answer when they say they worked with Joe Schmoe last week and he had a beautiful 3" incher if you know what I mean. And It was easy to see the images.
Even the Images that come in through C-1 are pretty blurry and never give ANY client , even me, that warm feeling that the images is Clear!
Whats' with all the fuzzy previews in C-1 with DB?? Never had that with my Canons on the same software. So LCD or not they do not even look great when in C-1..
Like you said they are different wants and needs, But I just cannot believe the LCD is so shitty for such an expensive Back.

Snook
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tho_mas
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« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2008, 12:10:26 PM »
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As far as the LCD... Funny how every other back maker keeps getting bigger and bigger and phase left that out.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224675\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
yes... bigger with the entire back and smaller with the knobs.
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woof75
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« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2008, 03:15:45 PM »
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When I joined Capture Integration I was blown away by how good of image quality you could get from an H25 (22 megapixel with no LCD from 2003). It had to be tethered, and the ISO range, long exposure, and speed were all pretty poor, but assuming you weren't concerned with those, then the H25 could create phenomenal images. There have been great advances since then, and now the P65+ will shoot to a CF card, capture almost three times the information, have less noise, more accurate color, more dynamic range, more flexibility in post, less moire, and can maintain speeds of 1 frame per second.

It's great to be nostalgic and looking forward to the future at the same time. 

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
Personal Portfolio
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224598\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What can a P65+ do that my P21 can't do though? (bearing in mind I don't do prints bigger than 11*14). I'm not being nostalgic, just realistic.
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James R Russell
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« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2008, 04:12:45 PM »
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What can a P65+ do that my P21 can't do though? (bearing in mind I don't do prints bigger than 11*14). I'm not being nostalgic, just realistic.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=224717\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Anyone who looks at a photograph and asked how many megapixels is looking at the wrong thing.

I understand why the db makers want more, some for moire, some because they have to diferentiate themselves from the dslrs, but regardless of the make there is a lot of reasons to shoot a db, but megapixels is about #4 on the list.

It's shame they feel compelled to market that way.

JR
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Leonardo Barreto
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« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2008, 04:43:50 PM »
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I have a P25 and Mamiya AFD (not the AFD II) plus 150mm,8mm,45mm,150mm

I have not seen anything that I need to have and plan to continue shooting with what I have since it takes good images. I got my back with 2 years of use (in really good shape) 2 years ago, --so we are talking about, in dog-computer years of 28 years-- but I don't care...

This set up is faster than my RZ or SINAR. Just remember what it took to load a roll of 120 film on the RZ after only s handful of exposures ! then you had to change the film magazine for the POLAROID and wait a minute for the "preview" that was not zoomable,-- no histogram --

My AFD-P25 shoots from the computer and sends a large image to my monitor, who cares about LCD !

I know that one day I will go check eBay and will find that the back that I paid 14k is now worth nothing, but if it continues to shoot I will continue using it...



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Anyone who looks at a photograph and asked how many megapixels is looking at the wrong thing.

I understand why the db makers want more, some for moire, some because they have to diferentiate themselves from the dslrs, but regardless of the make there is a lot of reasons to shoot a db, but megapixels is about #4 on the list.

It's shame they feel compelled to market that way.

JR
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amsp
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« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2008, 04:46:52 PM »
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I agree with the OP, my P25 blows me away every time I use it and have never felt the need for higher resolution. The files from these backs can be blown up to incredible proportions without falling apart, unlike small format files. I still applaud the advancements all the back-makers are doing though, and I'm sure there are plenty of buyers for the latest & greatest.
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JohnBrew
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« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2008, 07:39:12 PM »
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go for the tested stuff you know works,

Same reason many of us still use film  
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Snook
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« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2008, 07:58:59 PM »
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Same reason many of us still use film 
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Film... what is that??
:+}
you have lost the boat by now for sure...:+}
Snook
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Jonathan H
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« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2008, 09:15:50 PM »
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Today, I nearly got a P20 on a Hassy 500CM with a couple lenses for under $3K - some lucky bastard managed to sneak it out from under me.  Would have a been a nice initial jump into MFDB's!  

Oh well, back to my 5D.  ::sigh::
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Leonardo Barreto
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« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2008, 03:40:42 PM »
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The P25 has almost no moving parts and the casing is made of pure metal. The LCD is not so important since this is a machine made to be connected, so I can hold ground until the replacement would cost me 3K or something...

I would like the equivalent to the MICRO 4/3 with a 645 sensor with Digitar type non retrofocus lenses half the size of "normal" ones...

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Today, I nearly got a P20 on a Hassy 500CM with a couple lenses for under $3K - some lucky bastard managed to sneak it out from under me.  Would have a been a nice initial jump into MFDB's! 

Oh well, back to my 5D.  ::sigh::
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