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Author Topic: Post photokina, New Canon Glass  (Read 10322 times)
mike.online
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« on: September 29, 2008, 08:15:08 AM »
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Curious, Canon only introduced two new lenses this year, and only one of them L-series (iirc). I was waiting until after the show to find out what to buy, to see if there were to be new options available. Seems like there is not much changing in the line-up though, so I figure its still pretty safe to buy lenses now, without fear of something new and awesome coming out.

Specifically I'm going to be buying a 70-200L f2.8 IS.

And I also want the 24-70L f/2.8. I was secretly hoping that Canon would release an IS version of the 24-70L f2.8, but it appears not.

Are these reasonable assumptions, and reasonable purchases? I'm going to be upgrading to the new 5DMkII (90% sure, at least) so these new lenses will replace my 28-135mm-EFS f/3.5-5.6 IS USM.

comments, suggestions ?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 11:00:30 AM by mike.online » Logged

BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2008, 08:23:20 AM »
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And I also want the 24-70L IS f/2.8. I was secretly hoping that Canon would release an IS version of the 24-70L f2.8, but it appears not.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225484\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

As of now, there is no reason to think that it is technically possible to design a pro 2.8 trans-standard zoom with IS/VR. Nobody has managed to do it.

It would seem that Sony is probably doing the right thing with the body IS in their full frame A900... no problem even with bright lenses whose internal elements must be heavy and large, and therefore difficult to move quickly enough for efficient stabilization.

Cheers,
Bernard
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fike
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« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2008, 10:50:53 AM »
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As of now, there is no reason to think that it is technically possible to design a pro 2.8 trans-standard zoom with IS/VR. Nobody has managed to do it.

It would seem that Sony is probably doing the right thing with the body IS in their full frame A900... no problem even with bright lenses whose internal elements must be heavy and large, and therefore difficult to move quickly enough for efficient stabilization.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I hadn't noticed that all the IS lenses were f/3.5-4 or higher.  Interesting tradeoff.  I have noticed that my 24-70 is very heavy for its relatively small zoom range.  Hadn't thought about trying to dynamically adjust for shaking the camera in a lens that heavy.

Time will tell on the Lens IS versus body IS debate.  I tend to prefer the body from a cost effectiveness point of view.
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maxgruzen
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« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2008, 10:57:21 AM »
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As of now, there is no reason to think that it is technically possible to design a pro 2.8 trans-standard zoom with IS/VR. Nobody has managed to do it.

It would seem that Sony is probably doing the right thing with the body IS in their full frame A900... no problem even with bright lenses whose internal elements must be heavy and large, and therefore difficult to move quickly enough for efficient stabilization.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, I know this doesn't really count, but the EFS 17-55 meets that description and boy is it sharp. I had it but didn't like it and sold it.
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mike.online
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« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2008, 11:03:52 AM »
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As of now, there is no reason to think that it is technically possible to design a pro 2.8 trans-standard zoom with IS/VR. Nobody has managed to do it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

thanks!

I did not know there is a technical limitation at fast focal lengths- interesting. Do you know why?
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mike.online
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« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2008, 11:06:43 AM »
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Given the new ISO capabilities (i.e. clear at 3200), I have a feeling that IS wouldn't be as big of a deal in the 24-70L since you get more than two stops (which the IS affords) from the added iso range (as opposed to the previous generation cameras which have so much noise at 3200 that they are pretty useless).
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Tony Beach
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« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2008, 12:31:20 PM »
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As of now, there is no reason to think that it is technically possible to design a pro 2.8 trans-standard zoom with IS/VR. Nobody has managed to do it.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225487\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not sure why that would be the case since my Nikkor 70-200/2.8 has big elements and VR.

FWIW, I told my brother to turn off image stabilization on his P&S camera and that resulted in fewer blurry shots.  At the shorter focal lengths subject motion is a bigger issue than camera shake and the value of putting IS or VR in these mid range zooms is questionable in my opinion.
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mahleu
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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2008, 12:50:30 PM »
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At the shorter focal lengths subject motion is a bigger issue than camera shake and the value of putting IS or VR in these mid range zooms is questionable in my opinion.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225561\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Depends what you shoot and what conditions it's in. If you just want sharp night cityscapes or any inanimate object it would be wonderful.
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Tony Beach
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2008, 01:43:07 PM »
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Depends what you shoot and what conditions it's in. If you just want sharp night cityscapes or any inanimate object it would be wonderful.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225564\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you are really serious about those things, you use a tripod.  The entire point of IS and VR is that you use them in places where a tripod is not practical, and that usually involves crowded places populated with people moving around too fast for slow shutter speeds.  Here's my point:  take away the people, animals, wind, the tripod, and shutter speeds that are simply too slow for IS to be efficacious, and you are left with only a marginally useful feature.
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mahleu
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2008, 01:49:50 PM »
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If you are really serious about those things, you use a tripod. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225574\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Unfortunately not everyone is really serious all the time. If i'm out with my camera and it gets dark and I see something I like i'd rather be able to capture it without having to ramp my iso right up or balance my camera on something.
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tony Rosca
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2008, 02:00:44 PM »
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Canon did introduced the 200mm L and 800mmL IS this year .I was hoping for a new 100-400mmL IS at Photokina or something in that range.. Also I don't think they will do anything with 24-70mm f2.8 because they replace it with 24-105 IS.
I read some post about Zeiss lenses for Canon which will be interesting.
But I understand your dilemma with the lenses because it is always hard to decide what to buy to best fit your needs
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Tony Beach
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« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2008, 02:14:50 PM »
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Unfortunately not everyone is really serious all the time.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225577\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Look if you are serious and you are out with your camera, you are using a tripod and MLU even during the day.  I know because I have seen the effects of vibration even at reasonably fast shutter speeds (anything under about 1/250).  That raises yet another reason to not to include IS in a shorter focal length pro lens-- take away seriousness and you are left with less demanding user's needs.  Slower amateur lenses do have IS, and they weigh less and cost less too, both of which are serious considerations for someone who just wants a lens to take snapshots with.  If the feature only adds real value for something like 10% of its users, then it hardly makes sense to charge the other 90% of its users a premium to have it.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 02:16:51 PM by Tony Beach » Logged
mahleu
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« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2008, 02:24:06 PM »
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Look if you are serious and you are out with your camera, you are using a tripod and MLU even during the day. I know because I have seen the effects of vibration even at reasonably fast shutter speeds (anything under about 1/250). That raises yet another reason to not to include IS in a shorter focal length pro lens-- take away seriousness and you are left with less demanding user's needs. Slower amateur lenses do have IS, and they weigh less and cost less too, both of which are serious considerations for someone who just wants a lens to take snapshots with. If the feature only adds real value for something like 10% of its users, then it hardly makes sense to charge the other 90% of its users a premium to have it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225586\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If you say so.

Canon still sells IS and non-IS versions of both the 70-200s and there are customers for both. There's no reason why they couldn't do the same with the standard zoom so that the 90% don't have to worry.

I presume you don't shoot from moving vehicles very often? A tripod on an overpass or even in strong wind will quiver. A monopod and IS make a mean versatile combination that isn't heavy to carry all day and doesn't trip people up.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2008, 02:41:29 PM by mahleu » Logged

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mike.online
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« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2008, 03:03:31 PM »
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Canon did introduced the 200mm L and 800mmL IS this year .I was hoping for a new 100-400mmL IS at Photokina or something in that range.. Also I don't think they will do anything with 24-70mm f2.8 because they replace it with 24-105 IS.
I read some post about Zeiss lenses for Canon which will be interesting.
But I understand your dilemma with the lenses because it is always hard to decide what to buy to best fit your needs
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225580\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is true, I had forgotten about those two lenses! I'm pretty much decided on the 70-200 f/2.8, but am still on the fence about the 24-70 and the 24-105L IS f/4. I've rented the 24-105L before, for events and I like it. However, its hard to tell the difference (for me at least) with it to the 28-135 IS EF-S.

Am I missing another combination of lenses that will cover a wide range of focal lengths, and still be pro quality? Lenses are built to suit certain needs.... I think we had covered that- ad nauseum. So who uses the 24-70L vs the 24-105L ?

As far as I can figure, the 24-70 is sharper (true?), has IS, and shallower DOF (because I think with the new ISO capabilities, the lenses are pretty much the same speed...). Whereas the 24-105 has a wider focal length (making it better for events) and IS (again, the ISO capabilities are making the speed a smaller issue). Is this a fair comparison to make?

I've read the lens articles between the two, but still am at a loss of which one to choose. Originally the f/2.8 sounded more attractive, but is it no longer a matter of being a faster lens, to me. The shallower DOF and zoom potential seem to be the only differences.

Maybe then the 24-70L is a studio lens and the 24-105L is more of an everyday, walk about lens?
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Tim Gray
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« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2008, 03:08:04 PM »
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Maybe then the 24-70L is a studio lens and the 24-105L is more of an everyday, walk about lens?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225602\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I use the 24-105 as my walking around lens, but for mission critical I fall back on the 24-70 (I use a tripod and mlu/remote generally in any event).
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Tony Beach
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« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2008, 03:26:31 PM »
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Canon still sells IS and non-IS versions of both the 70-200s and there are customers for both. There's no reason why they couldn't do the same with the standard zoom so that the 90% don't have to worry.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

There's a big difference between shooting at longer focal lengths and at shorter focal lengths, and the efficacy of IS at longer versus shorter focal lengths is significantly diminished.

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I presume you don't shoot from moving vehicles very often? A tripod on an overpass or even in strong wind will quiver.


Shooting from moving vehicles is the antithesis of serious photography -- I refer to it as "drive-by photography."  Unstable ground is a problem, but keep in mind that as soon as you give up the tripod and MLU you are compromising acuity and raising a serious question about why you bother to purchase an expensive lens.  As for wind and tripod stability, weigh down your tripod.

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A monopod and IS make a mean versatile combination that isn't heavy to carry all day and doesn't trip people up.


Going back to the point I raised in my previous reply, you have that option with slower lenses.

Look, once you start compromising shooting discipline then the value of toting around an expensive and heavy lens diminishes and it simply makes more sense to carry a smaller and less expensive lens for those applications.  Sure you can find narrow situations where it would be advantageous to have IS on a pro lens -- after all, every bit of image quality counts -- but as those situations become more and more narrow the reasons to invest in R&D, manufacture, and distribution of those lenses becomes less and less and the smaller market creates a push towards higher prices which negatively feeds back and drives the market down further and the price up further (the companies need to recover their investment, so they consequently have to charge more).

So the question is:  How much would you pay for IS on that lens?  If it were a cheap fix, then it would be on all the lenses.  I believe the difference on my Nikkor 70-200/2.8 is about $500 compared to the previous non-VR 80-200/2.8, and the Nikkor 16-85 costs about $250 more than the Nikkor 18-70 that it replaced; the additional costs of VR for many consumer lenses is significantly less though.  Also, would you give up some image quality for IS?  Again, that option is already available with slower lenses, and ultimately the availability or lack thereof of products is based on market forces.
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mike.online
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« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2008, 03:33:00 PM »
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ho hum. another thread, another pissing contest.


Anyways, to see what I mean about the articles on these lenses, I would point to Bill Caulfeild-Browne and Michael R.'s article.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...es/28-105.shtml

I agree with what Micheal is saying about them, so it basically leaves me to evaluate the DOF and zoom. I'm leaning towards the 24-105mmL IS I think.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2008, 07:07:52 PM »
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Not sure why that would be the case since my Nikkor 70-200/2.8 has big elements and VR.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225561\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

True, there are indeed many longer lenses with IS/VR, but not a single short bright lens, right?

I am not saying it is impossible, just that as of now I have not seen a single example. Since having both a very wide aperture and VR would open new applications, I would think that both Nikon and Canon would be interested in releasing such lenses (24-70 f2.8, 85 mm f1.2/f1.4,...) but it has just not happened yet.

It could be weight related, but my guess is that it might have to do with the shape/position/size of the elements that would have to be moved to enable stabilization.

It could be interesting to compare the size of the smallest element in these various lenses. I have not checked, but I would think that the size of the smallest elements around the middle of the lens (where it is possible to physically locate the VR/IS element) in these lenses is typically larger than it is with longer designs. Indeed, there is less space to enable the convergence of the light rays while preserving high enough an image quality.

Again, this is not backed up by firm facts, just trying to guess.

Cheers,
Bernard
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madmanchan
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« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2008, 10:55:25 PM »
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Mostly a question of priorities and market demand IMO.
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budjames
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« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2008, 05:20:38 AM »
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I have both lenses, the 24-70f2.8L and the 24-105 f4 IS. I use these lenses on my 40D (used to have a 20D) and my new 1DsMkIII (used to have a 1DsMkII). I have done any formal tests, I just shoot a lot of pictures in various settings - landscape, kid sports, horse races, vacations etc.

The 24-105 has become my "standard" lens. It's more compact, lighter and does not have the obnoxiously large lens hood like the 24-70. The IS is a nice touch and it works well. I still use a tripod for my landscape photos.

You can see some images shot with the 24-105 lens on my web site.

If I could only have one of these, I definitely would take the 24-105 over the 24-70.

Cheers.
Bud
« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 05:20:54 AM by budjames » Logged

Bud James
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