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Author Topic: Hasselblad at Photokina  (Read 40684 times)
carstenw
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« Reply #120 on: October 02, 2008, 01:56:16 AM »
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Or, Adorama'a web site to compare the Hasselblad and latest Mamiya D lens prices for a three lens kit---28, 45-90 zoom, and 150---to go with the 80mm "kit" lens. Interesting. $11,290 for the Hasselblad lenses v. $14,182 for the Mamiya lenses. The Mamiya prices are 25% higher.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226147\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sure, if you deliberately choose lenses of differing spec. The Mamiya lens is in each case better here (f/2.8 vs f.4, zoom wider on the wide end, etc.). However, if you do this fairly, spec-for-spec, then the story is different:

35/3.5: H: 3440 M: 1379
120/4: H: 3615 M: 2044
210/4: H: 3280 M: 1599

Totals: Hasselblad: 10335 Mamiya: 5022

So if you don't deliberately go looking for Mamiya lenses which are uncharacteristically expensive to match weaker-spec Hasselblad lenses, you come up with the fact that Hasselblad is twice as expensive.
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flashfredrikson
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« Reply #121 on: October 02, 2008, 02:04:59 AM »
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This comparison is just not right, don't forget hassi lenses are leaf shutter ones... so maybe you should wait for mamiya to get their's out. Hm, might take a while...

Anyway, I like the price drops, but I also know a couple of peole who already have the P65s on order, and I guess every good tech has to and will buy some of those.
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mcfoto
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« Reply #122 on: October 02, 2008, 02:16:33 AM »
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Hi
Here is my 2cents worth. Yes Hasselblad drops the price on the basic kit, good for them!
     But, why would you come out with a $7000.00 USD lens ( 35-90 ) that is designed for up to the H3D11-50.  Will it work  for the H3D-60? Will be cropped in the camera? This just confuses me, why would you design a new lens that is not designed for the latest & greatest?
     Are you committed to the latest chip size or the previous 36x48mm?

Denis
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Denis Montalbetti
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carstenw
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« Reply #123 on: October 02, 2008, 03:29:04 AM »
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This comparison is just not right, don't forget hassi lenses are leaf shutter ones... so maybe you should wait for mamiya to get their's out. Hm, might take a while...

Anyway, I like the price drops, but I also know a couple of peole who already have the P65s on order, and I guess every good tech has to and will buy some of those.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226263\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Right, if you need leaf shutter lenses, then there is no point in the comparison at all. I am not sure that there is in any case, but the original comparison was quite flawed.
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thsinar
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« Reply #124 on: October 02, 2008, 04:04:16 AM »
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The best of the day!

 


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It cost me more to get rid of my used wife than she cost in the first place!!!
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Thierry Hagenauer
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michele
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« Reply #125 on: October 02, 2008, 04:26:56 AM »
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And what about the difference between a digital lens and an analogic lens? Remember that all the H series lenses are digital lenses, made for a digital sensor. Mamiya has few lenses made for digital and are more expensive than Hasselblad ones...
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Nemo
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« Reply #126 on: October 02, 2008, 04:44:31 AM »
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Do you remember the Pentax 645D? I think it was an error to stop that camera project. Maybe the 645 format is too large for moderate prices, but a MF system that complements the APS-C based cameras of Pentax is a good idea.

 http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/P...First-Look-.htm

.
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heinrichvoelkel
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« Reply #127 on: October 02, 2008, 05:16:04 AM »
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Do you remember the Pentax 645D? I think it was an error to stop that camera project. Maybe the 645 format is too large for moderate prices, but a MF system that complements the APS-C based cameras of Pentax is a good idea.

 http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/P...First-Look-.htm

.
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From a Photokina roundup by Thom:

"Apparently there will be no FX Pentax; the K20D and K200D will get generational changes in mid-2009, and the 645D is back on the development board (what's with the "everyone wants to be in MF trend?")."

Whole article is an interesting read: [a href=\"http://www.bythom.com/photokina2008.htm]http://www.bythom.com/photokina2008.htm[/url]

Especially the part about the economy and how camera companies can survive the recession...with regards to Hasselblad even more interesting read
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 05:17:09 AM by heinrichvoelkel » Logged
Nemo
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« Reply #128 on: October 02, 2008, 05:52:15 AM »
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Thanks!!!!

Really interesting !!!!!


R.
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James R Russell
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« Reply #129 on: October 02, 2008, 09:20:09 AM »
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From a Photokina roundup by Thom:

"Apparently there will be no FX Pentax; the K20D and K200D will get generational changes in mid-2009, and the 645D is back on the development board (what's with the "everyone wants to be in MF trend?")."

Whole article is an interesting read: http://www.bythom.com/photokina2008.htm

Especially the part about the economy and how camera companies can survive the recession...with regards to Hasselblad even more interesting read
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226284\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I think Hasselblad's price cuts are because they see the future.  Don't think that Pentax, Nikon or Canon don't see a tough economy as the right time to use their investment dollars to move into other territory and now with the complete acceptance of digital it makes sense to see an easy to use $10,000 medium format camera.  (maybe even less than $10,000).

I believe had there been an under $10,000 digital back that worked as well as a 1ds a lot of those RZ's and V's that are sitting on shelves would have gotten a more use, but nobody except Kodak attempted to come out with a really affordable medium format back and Kodak being Kodak stopped development before they really got it right.

I guess Mamiya made a stab at it with the ZD but it seemed to be too little too late.

Anyway, a medium format back that is as well thought out as a Canon or Nikon dslr and has a lower price point will open up a whole new market and knowing the Japanese, by the time they introduce it, it will probably also shoot video and self levitate.

And don't think the Japanese will worry about having to place these cameras in only specialty dealers to sell them.  They'll be right there sitting next to their dlsrs in every camera store in the world.

If the current medium format makers on going to compete, they're either going to have to drop prices or offer much, much, much more usability.  Probably a little bit of both.


JR
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 09:22:14 AM by James R Russell » Logged

eronald
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« Reply #130 on: October 02, 2008, 09:34:17 AM »
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And don't think the Japanese will worry about having to place these cameras in only specialty dealers to sell them.  They'll be right there sitting next to their dlsrs in every camera store in the world.

If the current medium format makers on going to compete, they're either going to have to drop prices or offer much, much, much more usability.  Probably a little bit of both.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226332\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That is what I like about Hasselbald's new approach, and what Leica are saying: Their stuff will be off-the-shelf, available in any major camera shop. Which also means forget about al the backup issues, anything that fails daytime in any major city can just be replaced from stock.

Edmund
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
Nemo
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« Reply #131 on: October 02, 2008, 10:18:53 AM »
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I
I believe had there been an under $10,000 digital back that worked as well as a 1ds a lot of those RZ's and V's that are sitting on shelves would have gotten a more use, but nobody except Kodak attempted to come out with a really affordable medium format back and Kodak being Kodak stopped development before they really got it right.

Absolutely right...
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James R Russell
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« Reply #132 on: October 02, 2008, 11:24:12 AM »
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That is what I like about Hasselbald's new approach, and what Leica are saying: Their stuff will be off-the-shelf, available in any major camera shop. Which also means forget about al the backup issues, anything that fails daytime in any major city can just be replaced from stock.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226334\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Producing and shooting good photography, especially for commerce is difficult.  Shooting very good photography is more than difficult and great photography is either luck or divine intervention.

Buying and using professional cameras should be easy.  Actually, given the price it should be the easiest thing we do and in the 35mm world it is.  For 6 years Canon has offered a professional camera that worked as easy, if not easier than a film camera.  The 1ds was ground breaking.  It took Nikon 6 years just to get to an even field.    

I like quality products and the europeans give a tactile feel to their goods that the Japanese sometimes don't.  I like specialty products that are different than what the consumer uses.

I love the look and feel of my Contax,  only I wished it worked as easily as the Canons or Nikons, had high iso and a great lcd.

Then again when it comes to making photographs, it really is all about the photograph, not the camera and though the p30 gives better image quality, by the time an image goes through a lot of post production it's very hard to tell what image was shot with what camera.  High iso is the great leveler and at 800, 1600 iso medium format starts to go backwards.  Having a good lcd, even if you work tethered 90% of the time has more usability than anyone can know.

Try pointing most of the current medium format camera lcd's at a client and ask them if they would bet a few hundred thousand dollars that the photo they see on those lcd's are correct, the highlghts don't blow, the detail is sharp?

I find a lot of this talk  and complaint about lower prices interesting, same with the brand loyalty that runs through all the blogs.  It's nice that someone likes their camera and is proud of the purchase.   It's nice to have new things, but as a working professional I have to look at these as tools more than luxury items.

Regardless, the moment the Japanese really get into medium format, you know things will definitely change.   Medium format from that point on will become a no excuse format.  You know the lcd's will be detailed, the in camera image processing fast, the build quality rock solid and the iso will be as adaptable as Tom Hanks.

And also at that point I bet the discussion becomes more about photography and less about megpaixels.  

I don't see anything lately, including the Hasselblad price cuts as negative towards the industry, at least from my side of the industry.  In fact I see this level of competition good, because in my profession I compete on a minute  by minute basis and I know that drives me and others to be better, so given  the world I compete in I find it hard to pull out the violins and start playing a sad song for the medium format makers, just because one of them lowered their prices.    I'd feel different if the current backs gave me more of what I needed.

I'd feel different if the current medium format cameras were more impressive to my clients or the new ones were offering something I couldn't live without.  No client knows the name, HY6, AFI or Phase.  They do know Hasselbad, Nikon, Leica, Rollei  and Canon.

Sure,  somebody will buy a 60mpx back, probably the rental houses and use those numbers as the fear buy for their non digital savvy clients, saying you must use the largest, you must use the best, though I believe those days are coming to an end.  Does anybody believe a client leaves the studio remembering that the camera had 60 or 39, 33 or 31 or 22 million pixels?

To me Leica, has the chance to fill a void between the Japanese cameras and the current medium format offerings, because they have the bling factor and are known to make great glass.

The problem is they announced something a year before they made it and you can buy it.  In a year, everything can and will change, look at the Canon 5d2 and how it effected the Red Scarlet.  In a year the Leica could be a full year behind and if they run the same medium format business model as what we're use to, they will be 6 months later than that.

In the film days, Kodak was large and to put it polite arrogant.  Any question about price, or issues was responded to by saying, "you pros are just a small market with little profit for us".  Then Fuji came in and the world changed and Kodak lost business hand over fist and never recovered the domination they once had.

Current medium format makers would do themselves a service and take note.    Sure they aren't going to like having to lower prices and give real needed innovation but as a photographer most of us don't like carrying 350 lbs of computer carts, backups, drives and the fact we've become our own processing labs.  The market dictated those changes and we had to evolve.

Same with the camera makers.




JR
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 01:51:26 PM by James R Russell » Logged

Streetshooter
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« Reply #133 on: October 02, 2008, 12:38:28 PM »
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i just don't think that the one company that will be left after pricing everybody out of the market will listen more to its customers then the 4 that are around now....

so i guess regardless, we will never get clean high iso and a useable screen with DMF....
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You know I wouldn't bet on that. Nikon might just do it, and soon too. At one time they didn't listen to their customers and they paid the price. Now they do and are producing the goods.

Maybe that's why Hasselblad lowered their prices, they know what's coming around the bend. I've said many times before that all the MFDB makers should have sold their old backs real cheap to get customers hooked into their systems. What did they do ?  They controlled the supply of their used backs to keep their prices high.

I suppose the market will decide the fate of the MFDB makers.
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hcubell
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« Reply #134 on: October 02, 2008, 03:08:09 PM »
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Hi
Here is my 2cents worth. Yes Hasselblad drops the price on the basic kit, good for them!
     But, why would you come out with a $7000.00 USD lens ( 35-90 ) that is designed for up to the H3D11-50.  Will it work  for the H3D-60? Will be cropped in the camera? This just confuses me, why would you design a new lens that is not designed for the latest & greatest?
     Are you committed to the latest chip size or the previous 36x48mm?

Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226264\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Interesting question. For now, it seems like Hasselblad is committed to both. So, just like you now have the choice of sensor size between the 31mp sensor and the 39mp sensor, you will have a choice of 31, 39mp, 50 and 60mp sensors in the same body. I see no reason why the availability of the 60mp full frame chip makes the 31, 39 and 50 mp chips suddenly unattractive. To the contrary, at $22K new for the H3DII-39, I think that is the sweet spot in the lineup with plenty of resolution for most applications and considerably less expensive than the H3DII-60.
I have no idea whether the 28mm HCD lens and the new HCD 35-90 zoom can be used with the 60mp chip, and if so, with what effect. Anyone know?
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samuel_js
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« Reply #135 on: October 02, 2008, 04:00:58 PM »
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Interesting question. For now, it seems like Hasselblad is committed to both. So, just like you now have the choice of sensor size between the 31mp sensor and the 39mp sensor, you will have a choice of 31, 39mp, 50 and 60mp sensors in the same body. I see no reason why the availability of the 60mp full frame chip makes the 31, 39 and 50 mp chips suddenly unattractive. To the contrary, at $22K new for the H3DII-39, I think that is the sweet spot in the lineup with plenty of resolution for most applications and considerably less expensive than the H3DII-60.
I have no idea whether the 28mm HCD lens and the new HCD 35-90 zoom can be used with the 60mp chip, and if so, with what effect. Anyone know?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=226413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I supose the sensor will be cropped. I bit less resolution.
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Mike W
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« Reply #136 on: October 03, 2008, 11:36:57 AM »
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this is just incredible:

The H3DII-60 will feature a 60 megapixel sensor that provides 94% full-frame, 645 coverage. We feel that its important to emphasize the 94% coverage, because, although we hear the phrase 'full-frame' being used quite frequently, no manufacturer has yet achieved true medium format full-frame.

(from the hasselblad photokina page)

And this from the camera-maker that marketed 48mm chips to be full-frame.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #137 on: October 03, 2008, 04:09:28 PM »
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Quote from: Mike W
this is just incredible:

The H3DII-60 will feature a 60 megapixel sensor that provides 94% full-frame, 645 coverage. We feel that its important to emphasize the 94% coverage, because, although we hear the phrase 'full-frame' being used quite frequently, no manufacturer has yet achieved true medium format full-frame.

(from the hasselblad photokina page)

And this from the camera-maker that marketed 48mm chips to be full-frame.

It looks like a new marketing VP is on board...

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
James R Russell
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« Reply #138 on: October 03, 2008, 11:16:00 PM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
It looks like a new marketing VP is on board...

Cheers,
Bernard


In all fairness Hasselblad is not the only company to use the "full frame" quote for 36x48mm.  Leaf did it for a while, probably every dealer said something to that effect so in regards to film formats, only three current companies make (and sell now) real film full frame single shot cameras and that is Nikon, Canon and Sony.

All of this talk is rather silly, on another thread somebody is talking about Hasselblad's 28mm lens is actually 28point something, something something.

Just step back two feet and your good.

I'm sure the Leica will be "full frame" super 35 or whatever marketing thinks resonates.  I don't get it, there are about 2 dozen reasons to buy a camera but an extra 8mm on a sensor or .8999 on a lens really isn't that important.

This is just marketing speak to get us to buy something new and who can keep track.  In medium format what do we have now . . . very nearly full frame, nearly full frame, super wide full frame except for the top part, close to full frame, less than full frame, square but much smaller than full frame?

Nearly all have the same iso, close to the same characteristics, bit depth and mount on versions of old or reworked legacy film cameras with a price differential of $40,000 to $10,000 for the camera back.

Actually it's all pretty funny.

JR
« Last Edit: October 03, 2008, 11:20:15 PM by James R Russell » Logged

froesner
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« Reply #139 on: October 04, 2008, 02:50:30 AM »
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Quote from: James R Russell
All of this talk is rather silly, on another thread somebody is talking about Hasselblad's 28mm lens is actually 28point something, something something.

JR

That must be my post you are talking about James ... and I thought I put enough numbers behind the 28point (I used "Hasselblad 28.8967856 mm") so that it would clearly be seen as ironic.  In fact I was trying to make the same point as you - referring to someone who mentioned that the 28mm actually is a 29mm ... but I failed obviously    

/Frank


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