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Author Topic: Hasselblad at Photokina  (Read 40707 times)
SeanBK
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« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2008, 01:25:52 PM »
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I really don't want to get sucked into this debate, but I'll add one thought.......

.......And who's going to come to your studio and help out when something goes wrong, and where are you going to get a loaner when you have a raft load of expensive models and a pissed off art director breathing down your neck, and your back goes south on a Friday afternoon?

Michael
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 Now I heard it all. Because of your "sky is falling" rhetoric, we the hard working photographers should pay automatically extra money to Phase, because they charge us more, that means they MUST be able to service the back better than Hasselblad, who makes the backs, the cameras, full line of lenses. Really you should read your own diatribe. You really do so well in so..o many other aspect of photography, as J.Russell aptly pointed it, so why,...why?  
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jecxz
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« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2008, 01:44:37 PM »
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Dear Michael,

This is what ruins your website for me. You clearly are biased, it is obvious to many, and what's worse is that it's essentially over how much Hasselblad is charging!

So, if you want to keep the integrity of your forum, unbiased as it should be, then cut it out and be honest with yourself: you expected the royal treatment from Hasselblad - free or discounted upgrades, etc... and Phase gave it to you instead and now you bitch and complain that you did not get it from Hasselblad. You paint Hasselblad in a negative light every chance you get.

I wouldn't care to say this to anyone else, but someone has to tell you what I am saying: your bias really turns some people off—it is not like you—meaning your other articles have a level of honesty I appreciate, except when it comes to Hasselblad.

You’ve worked hard to create a great website, don’t ruin it—and that’s not just my opinion. But how you run your forum is up to you, I'm only saying this in the hopes you could improve.

If you continue to be angry over cost, cloaked in the notion that you are “telling it like it is,” then people will move to other forums, like Nick’s or elsewhere, where they get an unbiased perspective.

You’re a big boy; I think you can take the reality in this entire post. Time to get a grip and move on. Let it go.

Kind regards,
Derek Jecxz
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hcubell
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« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2008, 01:52:38 PM »
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I really don't want to get sucked into this debate, but I'll add one thought.

Talk to a VAR who sells MF digital backs, and ask them about the cost of sales and support, and the margins that they need to provide these. Things aren't as simple as they might appear.

A box seller might do OK with 5-10% margin. Unless a VAR makes at least 20 points, and preferably more, they aren't going to stay in business long, and then where will you buy your back from?

And who's going to come to your studio and help out when something goes wrong, and where are you going to get a loaner when you have a raft load of expensive models and a pissed off art director breathing down your neck, and your back goes south on a Friday afternoon?

Michael
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The issue you raise above is a fair one, but it is totally out of line to assert that Hasselblad acted out of "desperation" or was running a "fire sale". You know the import of those words, and I would just add that (i) you do not know what Hasselblad's sales, cash flow and recovery of R&D costs look like,  (ii) Hasselblad's introduction of new products appears to reflect a confidence about the future, not a sense of desperation, and (iii) maybe Hasselblad has actually listened to all of the complaints on this board over the years about the exorbitant cost of MFDBs compared to high MP offerings from Canon, Nikon and now Sony and concluded that Hasselblad had to and COULD do something to narrow that price gap. To be candid, if it had been Phase rather than Hasselblad that cut prices so dramatically, they would probably have received the LL Good Guy Award for 2008 and nobody would have been questioning their motives.
Lost in all of this is that Hasselblad is uniquely positioned to dramatically cut prices because it is the only medium format digital player that is an integrated manufacturer of the cameras and the backs. The prices charged for Phase/Mamiya cameras and lenses have to provide a profit to two companies. Sinar's Hy6 has to provide a profit to F&H and Sinar. Same with Leaf's AFI. In fact, with the new AFI 10 type camera that Sinar will sell, there are three companies with a hand in the till demanding a piece of the action.
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jecxz
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« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2008, 02:05:55 PM »
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Michael,

To further hcubell's point, what you probably don't want to acknowledge is that while Hasselblad has all the R&D costs of body / viewfinder / firmware / battery / integration design / testing / trouble shooting / engineering costs / software / etc...,  they don't make all the profits when you buy a different company's back. This is a straight loss for them.

Hasselblad finally said enough, they're spending the most while they're supporting all the others, keeping to open standards they don't profit from - they woke up and shut the free ride down.

Had they not, reality is, they'd probably not have any new products, or worse, they'd be out of business and we'd all be screwed.

But you just complain when it all boils down to you wanting a discount or free ride. All this costs a great deal of money to develop--they deserve to make the most profit from it.

I know this makes sense to you, I just hope you open your eyes to it finally.

Derek
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Dustbak
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« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2008, 02:20:27 PM »
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It obviously is somewhat of a marketing slogan as if you shop around most dealers will discount, even prior to this annoucement.

Still, from an end users standpoint I think this Hasselblad annoucement is more than just a discount, it is new think in the world of medium format digital and maybe, just maybe digital cameras will go back to being sold the way film cameras were, where you walked into a camera store and bought a camera.

No secret handshakes, no having to know who is the one or two authorized dealers in your area and probably a lot less haggeling on price and no more dealing with an upgrade system that makes it financially unattractive to keep your old back and buy a new one. 

It's not just that this allows for backups but allows you to own even different backs or different cameras and backs, as you can come closer to affording to keep your current back and camera and buy a new blad without breaking the bank.

(never underestimate the need for backups).

I really dislike the upgrade system because once in, it's very expensive to make a change and if you use something like the Contax, your back down the list as to when you get your upgrade, sometimes way down the lists.

Let's face it even two h3dII-31's (did I write this correctly and if I did what a mouthfull), costs just slightly more than where one 22mpx back was a few years ago and this includes two bodies and two lens.

The only thing that would make me feel better about this is if the Hasselblad (and all the backs) would work on any camera, because with more options and lower prices medium format would grow rather than contract.

From a professional standpoint, it probably shouldn't matter what non professionals buy, but if the Hasselblad becomes more available (and given the fact the name has the bling factor) I think they will sell a lot more cameras which means more R+D for the line which means more options for the professional.

Let's be realistitic, if Canon and Nikon didin't have the consumer business to amortize their development a D3 or 1ds3 would probably be double the costs, have single point autofocus and top out at 800 iso,  if they existed at all.

So I see all of this a good thing, not a negative and it might just be the slap in the face that medium format needs to become more consumer friendly.

Given all of this, I'm probably not Hasselblad's or any medium format companies target market as what I presntly use is paid for and works and until medium format gets cleaner higher iso, (if they ever do) I probably won't buy another medium format back of any brand again, but if I was starting fresh, the blad would be the first on my list.

The prices are good and the lens line is not only extensive and buyable in most markets and there are rentals of the H lenses in just about every city.   Also Hasselblad has that 2.2 100mm which is perfect for about 75% of what I shoot.

The only two things I think Hasselblad should address is getting their software out faster and with more information (well, I guess this holds true for all medium format companies) and they should make the H series camera back fit on the V system because there is a lot of V-systems still in use and this would give even more usability.

Regardless of any of this, I wish them the best of success with this strategy because I think this is good for all of us.

JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225774\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You have exactly said what I meant to say only much clearer
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pss
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« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2008, 02:30:18 PM »
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hasselblad has made some decisions in the last couple of years that have made some people (even some owners) pretty upset, by closing their system they have put themselves up against all other MF companies...maybe they were just a couple of years ahead and smelled the end early and made their drastic decision based on how they thought it would all turn out.....

i don't think anyone is really upset with a healthy price competition, free markets drive prices down which in turn should be great for the consumer....

BUT slashing prices to corner the market or simply drive the competition into the ground only means good news in the short run.....hasselblads price drop either means they are desperate or they (and really all the others) have completely overcharged for their product...either way this is NOT good for the market in the long run....

of course price is a major buying factor, but it is not the only one and if i was buying right now, i would still not go with hasselblad and in the big picture (a complete kit) 2, 3 or even 4000$ more or less would not make a difference to me in deciding which camera i will work with every day for the next couple of years.....


if price is an issue, wait fo rthe 5Dii
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thsinar
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« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2008, 02:35:36 PM »
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Dear Howard,

I wanted actually to keep out of this discussion, but am forced in it by your remarks below. It is a little more complicated than presented here. Many other factors do have an influence on price. You don't have any idea about the real costs and margins of such cameras, nor do you have an idea about the costs and margins of digital backs. Jumping that quickly to the conclusion that a Sinar Hy6 camera is automatically more expensive because there are 2 companies involved in its manufacturing and marketing is going a bit fast. In fact you should compare the price of an Hy6 with standard lens with any other brand and you would see that it is not true.

Concerning the AFi 10, it is the same: you don't have any idea or what prices will be, nor what margins those backs will carry. Let's wait and see what the prices for this new 56 MPx digital back will be, being it with the Leaf or with the Sinar name.

Best regards,
Thierry

PS:

- you are certainly right when saying that everybody has to earn some money out of the business.

- there are only 2 (not 3) companies "having a hand in it".

Quote
... Sinar's Hy6 has to provide a profit to F&H and Sinar. Same with Leaf's AFI. In fact, with the new AFI 10 type camera that Sinar will sell, there are three companies with a hand in the till demanding a piece of the action.
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« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 02:40:21 PM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2008, 02:44:29 PM »
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.....hasselblads price drop either means they are desperate or they (and really all the others) have completely overcharged for their product...either way this is NOT good for the market in the long run....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225820\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

More probably, both of the above are true.
 
The cameras themselves, and their lenses should be no more expensive to make than the old film MF cameras. Please don't dispute this, the Mamiya and the Contax *are* old MF cameras, and they work decently with digibacks.

Hence the price of the MF digitals  was initially due to sensor costs which have now fallen considerably.

Hasselblad are smart, they are passing on the savings to the consumer. In fact it is fascinating to watch how hard they work to obsolete their own product.

Edmund
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jing q
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« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2008, 02:59:38 PM »
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all I can say is that I am very very happy that hasselblad dropped their prices.
given the chance to start all over again I would probably go with a hasselblad.
Hopefully the other camera manufacturers buck up on this

Imagine if hasselblad came up with a V style H camera! doing everything the Hy6/AFi can do,using their H lenses.
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BrianSmith
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« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2008, 03:11:12 PM »
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hasselblads price drop either means they are desperate or they (and really all the others) have completely overcharged for their product...either way this is NOT good for the market in the long run....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225820\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Huh???

Everything digital gets better AND CHEAPER over time.

Until now, MFDBs were the exception.

This can only be GOOD for the market.

And it's about time.
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jing q
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« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2008, 03:14:46 PM »
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Huh???

Everything digital gets better AND CHEAPER over time.

Until now, MFDBs were the exception.

This can only be GOOD for the market.

And it's about time.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225831\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

my sentiments exactly
If the MFDB makers can't get it right at a good price, don't worry, sooner or later canon or nikon will foray into that megapixel range, or they will release a new lens/camera system.
The joys of japanese competition.
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James R Russell
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« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2008, 03:34:23 PM »
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my sentiments exactly
If the MFDB makers can't get it right at a good price, don't worry, sooner or later canon or nikon will foray into that megapixel range, or they will release a new lens/camera system.
The joys of japanese competition.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225832\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

We are close to the point, if we are not already there, where clients just see digital capture as it's all good and professional.  Nobody usually mentions file sizes, or dr or anything like that.

Color, stability of software, lack of artifacts or moire can be mentioned, but I haven't had a conversation with a client about the file size or brand/make of a digital camera in a long long time.

I also think that we are close to the leveling of the brands.

When I bought my Phase backs, (for my style of work and workflow) I believe they were better than anything else and maybe in some areas still have advantage for me, (once again depending on what you shoot), but not having worked a new Hasselblad or Leaf or Sinar I can't say that one is actually better than the other, though from what I hear and read, they all seem pretty close.

The point of all this is I like the idea of buy it, learn it, use it, sell it if something better comes along, or buy the next one just because it has a different look in the file or the glass or the camera operation.

I see nothing about that sceanrio that limits medium format, in fact I think it will grow the format.

I have Nikons, Canons, Leica and Phase and switch between them all the time, sometimes on the same project, sometimes because each one (and the lenses) will give me a different look.

Michael does that, so do many other photographers.  Nothing new about owning different systems, even in the same format.

Lower prices makes this easier to do.

JR
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SeanBK
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« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2008, 03:37:42 PM »
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my sentiments exactly
If the MFDB makers can't get it right at a good price, don't worry, sooner or later canon or nikon will foray into that megapixel range, or they will release a new lens/camera system.
The joys of japanese competition.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225832\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
 Ditto, as ultimately we & the clients will ask, Nikon/Canon gives me comparable pixels/clarity, while MF gives me that illusive look that everyone is talking @, but will my market can really appreciate or even notice it? So why should I pay for it.
   Look at the enormous bells & whistles PS CS4 is bringing, with blending of the focus,.... so a simple camera will do.
   I say, Halleluah! that I have lived long enough to see the price drop for MF camera & never mind that there is someone proclaiming & holding "The end is near" banner.
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shelby_lewis
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« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2008, 04:10:50 PM »
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Michael,

With all due respect I'm not against the dealer system, though if a photographer has their s^%t together they should have backups and know what to  do.

From the professional side, especially in the large markets, a lot of photographers have moved into the world of not really knowing their equipment, (not  just cameras) and rely on a room full of "specialists" to do everything.

This is exactly why I commend 'blad for doing what they've done... that is to begin to simplify the needs of the photographer in respect to support networks via the possibility of actually owning your own backup (through lower pricing). Right now it's all stupidly excessive.

I'm an architect, and I can tell you that the "room full of specialists" has caused considerable problems in the design field when not managed well... namely bloat. Engineers and consultants are very important... and I liken the digital tech/rental house to them... but in the end if one isn't careful, you end up being the "trigger puller" and not much more. The tech sets up the camera, the tech sets up the tether, the tech does this, the tech does that... the tech/rental house has the backup equipment... and on it goes.

.. the art director rules the concept, so what are we photographers left doing? Executing.

Shit, I show up to a wedding with everything (35mm) in at least duplicate... so why should having a backup for the mf shooter be so tied to a "support network".

If lower prices mean that we as photographers are actually able to buy our own backups and run the show with peace of mind, then the "boat anchor" effect of all the peripheral personnel (tech/rental house/VA Reseller, to name a few) needed to run a MF digital shoot will be lightened considerably... especially on location.

Why worry that Mr. xxxxxxx (VA Reseller) is even available on a friday night at the big shoot when your cam goes down, when you can just walk over to the pelican case and pick your backup up and start shooting again?
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JeffVo
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« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2008, 04:16:23 PM »
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I dont chime in often, but today I feel compelled to get onto the field from the sidelines.  I am neither a big fan nor a hater of Michael.  But, I do appreciate his site as one of the few places on the web that provides such a wealth of information through both the LL site and these forums.  Many voices are heard about the industry and I think that in the "dark" world of MFD it is very much welcomed.  However, It is HIS site, and he can feel free just as the NYT or any other outlet  to Call it as he sees it.  Period.  I hold a similar opinion to him in that I don't like what Hasselblad has done.  The truth is that even with the Intro of the HY6 and the "New" Phamiya the H1/2 is still the best overall camera for a Digital back.   A Leaf rep some time before Hass "closed" the H system told me that 85% of their backs were made for the H.  As much as I like the H Camera (and its not without many faults) I very much Dislike their backs.  Granted I haven't seen the newest toys in action, but the package of software (phocus sucks) and back are still fall far behind Phase.  So for many people be they leaf, or phase etc, the thought of New lenses and bodies not working with their "H" back is disheartening.  But we've gone through all of this before.  No, a bigger issue is at hand.   Right now MFD reminds me of the Drum Scanner market right before its demise.   There was some vibrance in the Drum industry (as there is now in MFD) and then it was gone. I dont think a single drum company exist today.  Imacon (Hass) came in with its Virtual Drum (CCD not real PMT drum tech) and huge flat beds invaded the market.  They did more for less and where much easier to live with.  Were/are they better than a drum.  No.  Now there are still many very old drum scanners doing their job, but they are breed that nears extinction.  To me this Photokina marks the begging of the end.  Lets look at the facts:  Canon obsoleted its 1dsIII in LESS than a year (anybody want to buy mine?) with a camera that cost a fraction (5d2) and that THEY claim is superior in image quality.  Amazing.  More amazing the 1ds3 has quality if shot under the right conditions that rivals or exceeds the big boys.  Is it better in IQ? No.  But guess what: neither were the big flat bed scanners or virtual drums, but they killed the Drum.  The 5d2 and the 1ds4 which will most likely come out next year will seal the deal, and HD video will be the icing.  I promise.  3 years on from 39mp and the best we have 60mp?  Sure frame rates seem great, little better hi iso (surely no match for Canon) and a little better LCD?  But that is it? And, they are asking the same or more money.  The P30 P21 and 45's of the world lumber on with no improvement or replacement.  No innovation.  Now talk of RED making the ultimate combo cam next year.  I have talked with 4 owners of P45's and not one has a desire to upgrade at the going rate.  These are shooters at the top of their fields. None of their demanding clients has asked for bigger files.   To me the lower price is a preemptive strike on the next round of Canon and Nikon.  If the rumors are even half true of what is in the pipe from Japan then the end is near for MFD unless the do more than drop prices a bit and add MP....
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hcubell
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« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2008, 04:41:14 PM »
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Dear Howard,

I wanted actually to keep out of this discussion, but am forced in it by your remarks below. It is a little more complicated than presented here. Many other factors do have an influence on price. You don't have any idea about the real costs and margins of such cameras, nor do you have an idea about the costs and margins of digital backs. Jumping that quickly to the conclusion that a Sinar Hy6 camera is automatically more expensive because there are 2 companies involved in its manufacturing and marketing is going a bit fast. In fact you should compare the price of an Hy6 with standard lens with any other brand and you would see that it is not true.

Concerning the AFi 10, it is the same: you don't have any idea or what prices will be, nor what margins those backs will carry. Let's wait and see what the prices for this new 56 MPx digital back will be, being it with the Leaf or with the Sinar name.

Best regards,
Thierry

PS:

- you are certainly right when saying that everybody has to earn some money out of the business.

- there are only 2 (not 3) companies "having a hand in it".
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225821\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You are correct, Thierry, I do not have any financial data as to the internal costs and profit margins of the MFDB players. However, simple financial logic leads me to the conclusion that the more players in the manufacturing/distribution chain, each of whom is demanding its own nice profit margin, the higher the ultimate selling price to the consumer. No doubt there are other reasons for differences in the ultimate selling price, but vertical integration does tend to reduce prices(assuming no monopoly, and the only player that has ever been even close to a monopoly is Phase One).
The price in the US for a H3DII-39 with a 90 deg. finder and 80mm lens is now $22,000. What is the price of a Hy6 with a 90 degree finder, 80mm lens, with and without the revolving adapter?
In the case of the Sinar version of the Hy6 with the AFI 10 back, are there not three players that will be looking for a profit on the product, F&H, Leaf and Sinar?

Best regards, Howard
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thsinar
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« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2008, 04:58:07 PM »
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Howard,

no, F&H is not part of the Leaf - Sinar partnership: putting any back on the camera will not change the price of the Hy6 camera body. But I understand what you mean: a Hy6 "standalone" (analog) does not cost more than a H camera body standalone, even if F&H is partner for the Hy6 camera body.

As for the Sinar Hy6 - e75 LV, the recommended list price is Euro 24'300.-, without trade-in/upgrade, which usually is about Euro 5'000.-to 7'000.-, depending on the back traded-in, currently.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
In the case of the Sinar version of the Hy6 with the AFI 10 back, are there not three players that will be looking for a profit on the product, F&H, Leaf and Sinar?

Best regards, Howard
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2008, 05:14:05 PM »
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Dealer Support is overrated imho.......do you need support for that 1DS??? if you know your equip like james said 9 times out of 10 you will not need it.  if I have a question i'm coming to this forum or somewhere similar on the web to get an answer from real-life users.......if i need something last minute i'm probably calling fotocare or trec or similar rental....places that are used to dealing with such or i'm smart enough to be prepared and i already have a 1ds or 2nd back as backup(or 5dII now)....or god forbid an rz and some 120. duh!

i think what hassy is doing is rad.....they are competing w/ canon....everyone complains about MFDB not being easy, costing too much, voodoo pricing, etc....  hassy is solving all of those problems and people are still complaining about them doing it....the only question mark i really see with them is phocus..

if i actually enjoyed using the h series as a cam i'd be lookin pretty hard at an h3d but ergonomics on that thing are horrendous if you wanna shoot all day long hand holding especially vertical, honestly my preference is still towards a v mount back that I can swap between my rz and 500cm..... that rz and 500 are like my babies.....if leafs new screen is good enough i think i'll be going that route otherwise, used aptus 22 or 54s here i come....for under 10k mind you.  i used to think phase cause of stability and C1 but that puny screen in the field...no way.


I think phase is being left in the dust personally, they have not done anything lately to improve usability in terms of physically interacting w/ the back...and c1 4pro is how late??..still waiting on leaf shutter lenses......sinar and leaf both updated lcds' added the ability of rotation, etc...... that is what's going to sell me on a back at this point b/c those canons are just tooooooo easy....make your back as easy and stable to use as those canon's and you will have a ton of sales imho regardless of price.
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hcubell
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« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2008, 05:17:01 PM »
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Howard,

As for the Sinar Hy6 - e75 LV, the recommended list price is Euro 24'300.-, without trade-in/upgrade, which usually is about Euro 5'000.-to 7'000.-, depending on the back traded-in, currently.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=225861\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

On the Calumet Photo website, the Sinar Hy6 75R is listed at US $38,000. Say the 90 deg. finder is $1,500. All in, the price is US $ 39,500. The Hasselblad H3DII-39 is US 22,000. That seems to me to be a pretty steep price difference.
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H1/A75 Guy
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« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2008, 06:18:56 PM »
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.....if leafs new screen is good enough i think i'll be going that route otherwise, used aptus 22 or 54s here i come....for under 10k mind you.
And LC v.11.2 is ready for you now..

David
« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 06:19:58 PM by H1/A75 Guy » Logged
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