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Question: If you had to start from scratch today, which MF system would you buy into today
Hasselblad H3D: Scandinavian precision rocks! - 38 (29%)
Sinar/Leaf Hy6/Afi: Swiss/German/Israelii precision rocks! - 46 (35.1%)
Phase One/Mamiya AFDIII: Danish/Japanese precision rocks! - 24 (18.3%)
Leica S2: German precision rocks! - 9 (6.9%)
Nikon MX: Japanese precision rocks! - 8 (6.1%)
You forgot my brand so I'll rock you! - 6 (4.6%)
Total Voters: 123

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Author Topic: If you had to do it all over ...  (Read 39851 times)
Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #100 on: October 06, 2008, 02:07:09 PM »
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Quote from: James R Russell
I like the idea of the Sinar all dng workflow, but does this cover the complete range of Sinar and new Sinar/Leaf (Leaner) backs, or will it just be to the 31mpx product?

Processing DNG files in the back itself is unique to the Sinar 65, but any Sinar back which is shooting tethered with Exposure software will save each image in DNG format as you shoot. At the end of the shoot you therefore already have a folder of DNGs and can process them in any number of ways according to preference. For example, I import the folder of DNGs straight into Lightroom and have a nice web gallery generated pretty quickly without converting anything first.
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Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
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« Reply #101 on: October 06, 2008, 02:08:16 PM »
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Quote from: James R Russell
RD is not elegant and not easy to batch out a lot of small jpegs, but for those special images it's amazing.

Interesting, you make me want to try it.
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Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
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« Reply #102 on: October 06, 2008, 02:16:03 PM »
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Quote from: eronald
From these answers, it looks like Phase is caught in a downwards trend. That is certainly unexpected.

Why so? It seems that almost everyone who gets into the M645 is lured in by the cheap used bodies and a few cheap used lenses. I can't remember anyone ever selecting the M due to the optics coming out on top in a group test, or build quality, ergonomics, finder options, etc. The new bodies are not cheap at all, neither are the used lenses so once the initial party on the used market is over, you're stuck with the most compromised system (imo). Not surprising therefore that this doesn't make many wishlists and the poll backs that up. (No offence intended to any M645 owners!)
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Nick-T
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« Reply #103 on: October 06, 2008, 02:32:33 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
So, in the real world, if you shot a job on Monday, and you came home on Monday night, and the client wanted to see Web Galleries of the job on Tuesday, what exactly is the workflow?

You have to take what you shot, tweak the RAWs to your color taste, and then batch everything from this native format to DNG first?

And then, you take all those DNGs and then you batch everything to JPG for web galleries to show the client?

There is no way to simply make a web gallery from the RAW files?

Thank you.

Here's what you do. Tweak your RAWS.
Select all, hit save, and from the output presets choose "JPG Fast preview"

I just tested it on a folder of 720 images. Phocus exported the preview files in 82 seconds.

Each preview is 1082X812px (from a 31MP back) and each preview exactly matches whatever tweaks were made to the raw file.

How's that?

Nick-T
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Dustbak
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« Reply #104 on: October 06, 2008, 02:37:00 PM »
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Quote from: Nick-T
Here's what you do. Tweak your RAWS.
Select all, hit save, and from the output presets choose "JPG Fast preview"

I just tested it on a folder of 720 images. Phocus exported the preview files in 82 seconds.

Each preview is 1082X812px (from a 31MP back) and each preview exactly matches whatever tweaks were made to the raw file.

How's that?

Nick-T

That'll work. After that you can have your machine process the files at its own pace. Maybe nice to share what machine you used? (I guess your 8-core MacPro).
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gwhitf
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« Reply #105 on: October 06, 2008, 02:49:17 PM »
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Quote from: Nick-T
Here's what you do. Tweak your RAWS.
Select all, hit save, and from the output presets choose "JPG Fast preview"

I just tested it on a folder of 720 images. Phocus exported the preview files in 82 seconds.

Each preview is 1082X812px (from a 31MP back) and each preview exactly matches whatever tweaks were made to the raw file.

How's that?

Nick-T

That's pretty good, Nick. So this is similar to PreviewConverter, that was inside of CaptureOne 3.78? It would blow thru them quickly too.

What happens if the client also wants FPO files too? I usually create FPOs at about 150dpi at about 9x12 inches. What would the workflow be then?

And do you have any idea why people report sluggishness with Phocus? Do YOU think it would run on a MacBookPro?

Thanks.
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shelby_lewis
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« Reply #106 on: October 06, 2008, 02:55:14 PM »
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Quote from: AndreNapier
I am a bit troubled here reading my colleges posts about 5dII on order. Four here, two there etc. For a God sake this is still 5D. It is not a solution nor wholly grail of photography. Two months down the road you guys will be dumping them on eBay. Everybody around you is going to own one. There is a lot of ways to save money on equipment. Light is just a light so if you know how to use it the cheapest brand will do.
When I go to car mechanic I do not care if he uses Craftsmen tools or cheap knockoffs as long as he manages to tighten the screws. But you know what? He does.
I have spent hundreds of hours trying to convince myself that DSLR are good enough. I tried Canons with the best Leica glass, every possible option went through my hands. If I still carry big, heavy and old Rz with A75s it is because there is a reason. The reason is not to impress anybody, the reason is not to get paid more or land more jobs, the reason is not because clients appreciate the difference. The reason is very simple - I love and I am proud of what I do and I want to make the best images I am capable to make. If this was just a job than 5D would be just perfect. But if this was just a job I would not be writing about it right now.
If I had to do it again I would hire someone to give me a Leaf DB with full frame Rz sensor. I will be OK if it stops working here and there as my wife made it her profession to entertain and distract clients, ADs and talent in those dire situations.
Http://AndreNapier.com

I wanna be like Andre when I grow up  

Actually, I just started a thread on another "pro" forum speaking about MF and all the buzz... and how, for someone like me, it's exciting to see a glimmer of hope that it will be a tad more accessible monetarily. I swear I CAN see the difference between the 5D's and company.

Was there any interest in the thread. Nope.

If I had it all to do over again... I'd have started with a Rollei 6008 (maybe an RZ) and an Aptus of sorts ... but, I started with a 5D  

Oh well.
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alastairbird
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« Reply #107 on: October 06, 2008, 03:06:54 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
That's pretty good, Nick. So this is similar to PreviewConverter, that was inside of CaptureOne 3.78? It would blow thru them quickly too.

What happens if the client also wants FPO files too? I usually create FPOs at about 150dpi at about 9x12 inches. What would the workflow be then?

And do you have any idea why people report sluggishness with Phocus? Do YOU think it would run on a MacBookPro?

Thanks.

I'm running a test right now on my MBP - stock - 2.3 with 2GB of RAM and it's processing my 39MP files to 9x12 jpegs at 300dpi at the rate of 1 per minute.  And it's using ALL the resources to do it.  However, the computer would be faster with more RAM, faster HD, etc...  It's somewhat sluggish, but not too bad...
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Nick-T
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« Reply #108 on: October 06, 2008, 03:09:10 PM »
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Quote from: Dustbak
That'll work. After that you can have your machine process the files at its own pace. Maybe nice to share what machine you used? (I guess your 8-core MacPro).

Yep on the 8 core, should be much the same speed on a laptop as the previews are embedded.


Quote from: gwhitf
That's pretty good, Nick. So this is similar to PreviewConverter, that was inside of CaptureOne 3.78? It would blow thru them quickly too.

What happens if the client also wants FPO files too? I usually create FPOs at about 150dpi at about 9x12 inches. What would the workflow be then?

And do you have any idea why people report sluggishness with Phocus? Do YOU think it would run on a MacBookPro?

Thanks.

I'm not a C1 user so can't answer your first.
For FPO you are going to have to process the RAWS no doubt about it. I created a preset ( 150 ppi fit image height 30cm) and it took 9 seconds to process on the 8 core (again 31 MP files).

Phocus runs fine on a Macbookpro in my experience though processing times will be slower (a mate reports 40 secs for a 39MP on his current Macbookpro).

Nick-T
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James R Russell
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« Reply #109 on: October 06, 2008, 03:09:43 PM »
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Quote from: shelby_lewis
I wanna be like Andre when I grow up  

Actually, I just started a thread on another "pro" forum speaking about MF and all the buzz... and how, for someone like me, it's exciting to see a glimmer of hope that it will be a tad more accessible monetarily. I swear I CAN see the difference between the 5D's and company.

Was there any interest in the thread. Nope.

If I had it all to do over again... I'd have started with a Rollei 6008 (maybe an RZ) and an Aptus of sorts ... but, I started with a 5D  

Oh well.

I don 't now what you shoot, or where you want your career to go, but it your starting out, or moving up stream your better off investing in what goes on in front of the lens, i.e. props, stylists, talent, locations, etc. than you are spending an extra $20,000 to $35,000 on the camera.

In fact better retouching, (I mean really, really good retouching) is the great equalizer when it comes to the look.

If you want a Rollei, buy it,like it, use it, enjoy it, but don't think it's going to change your career anywhere close to what I just mentioned.

JR
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shelby_lewis
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« Reply #110 on: October 06, 2008, 03:19:16 PM »
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Quote from: James R Russell
I don 't now what you shoot, or where you want your career to go, but it your starting out, or moving up stream your better off investing in what goes on in front of the lens, i.e. props, stylists, talent, locations, etc. than you are spending an extra $20,000 to $35,000 on the camera.

In fact better retouching, (I mean really, really good retouching) is the great equalizer when it comes to the look.

If you want a Rollei, buy it,like it, use it, enjoy it, but don't think it's going to change your career anywhere close to what I just mentioned.

JR

James... glad you know what's best for me   (actually I do appreciate your insights, just giving you a hard time)

I'm a generalist... but slowly becoming a specialist on the "people" side of the biz. However, I am trained as an architect (and musician!), so I'm in a bit of an identity crisis presently. I'm also only a 3/4-time professional ( I spend 3-4 hours in a design office every morning).

As much as stylists and all, just having the time to pound the pavement would be beneficial... but I'm late to the game and the economy means I'll probably be a part-timer for a while. For me, it's about the slower work process. We're all a bit different here... and my years as a musician trained me to be able to make good decisions on the fly, but over and over again my best work surfaces when I'm slower, more deliberate, and focused.

My post was more about my artistic bent than it was about running a successful biz as a fashion shooter.

Thus the rollei reference. I've blown through WAY too much digital "film" with all the convenience my canons have brought me.
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Nick-T
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« Reply #111 on: October 06, 2008, 03:23:25 PM »
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Quote from: jimgolden
the only time DAC has really done much for me is w/ the HCD28 - it took a some distortion out, but I could have done it in PS as well.

Hi Jim
Got to disagree with you here (having spent 6 days showing people DAC corrections at Photokina).
First off you CANNOT duplicate DAC corrections  elsewhere, sure you can emulate them but the corrections will not be any where near as accurate. DAC corrections are unique in that they use data passed back from the camera to perform accurate corrections, quite different from adjusting a slider 'til it "looks" right.

The distortion corrections are complex enough with a fixed lens, with the HTS they are really complex, I'd defy anyone to fix tilt induced distortion in PS easily.

Don't forget DAC also removes vignetting (should you wish to) and chromatic aberration. Again you could fix this in PS but why would you (especially if you have 100 images to do).

Nick-T
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tho_mas
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« Reply #112 on: October 06, 2008, 03:45:40 PM »
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Quote from: Nick-T
The distortion corrections are complex enough with a fixed lens, with the HTS they are really complex, I'd defy anyone to fix tilt induced distortion in PS easily.
I think this is a very, very strong tool in the software. Wow!... if it works perfect. I've seen C1 V4 pro at Photokina and there is a tool to correct lens distortion. But a rudimentary tool for simple distortions. But maybe there will be an upgrade in 2018.
What I'd like to know about the corrections in the Hasselblad just for interest: does it squeeze the images and crop the edges so that you end up in a slightly smaller file or does it expand the edges so that you end up with the original resolution?
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Murray Fredericks
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« Reply #113 on: October 06, 2008, 04:14:20 PM »
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Quote from: Nick-T
(having spent 6 days showing people DAC corrections at Photokina).

Nick-T


Sorry Guys,

what's DAC?

Murray
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design_freak
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« Reply #114 on: October 06, 2008, 04:25:23 PM »
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Quote from: Murray Fredericks
Sorry Guys,

what's DAC?

Murray

Digital Apo Correction (digital lens corrections)
We can remove: color aberration, distortion, vignetting

Phocus
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Best regards,
DF

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WORK HARD AND BE NICE TO PEOPLE
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gwhitf
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« Reply #115 on: October 06, 2008, 09:43:23 PM »
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Quote from: thsinar
SINAR BRON IMAGING REGIONAL SALES MANAGERS

Thierry,

I rolled the dice today and called MIKE FLUITT and talked to him. Honestly, there was no listed dealer for my state, so I thought it might be illegal for me to buy an Hy6 and a 65, but I risked breaking the law and called him. He's a very nice guy, and was pretty forthcoming with details. He recommended to call either Fotocare in NY, or Dodd Camera in Cleveland, for rental/demo information. I didn't proceed any further though, since the 65 back is not out yet -- to me, that's the only Sinar game in town.

But I just wanted to report back that, yes, there are humans in the United States that deal in Sinar cameras. (I was not sure).

For the record, I give you a lot of grief, but you come here into a situation with a lot of (frustrated) history in MediumFormat Land. I give you credit for staying in the hot kitchen; you hold your own very well.

Promise me this though -- promise me that you'll have this full Hy6/65 system out, tweaked, and shipping in volume before you announce another camera/back, OK? Get one thing right before you move on to the next, please. A lot of Medium Format marketing feels like a Manhattan sidewalk Shell Game -- you think you've got your solution spotted, and then it changes to the next option, and thus, you never buy anything. Always waiting for the next announced product -- and never buying anything.
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thsinar
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« Reply #116 on: October 06, 2008, 10:12:25 PM »
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Dear gwhift (your name is so complicated!),

 

Quote from: gwhitf
Thierry,

I rolled the dice today and called MIKE FLUITT and talked to him. Honestly, there was no listed dealer for my state, so I thought it might be illegal for me to buy an Hy6 and a 65, but I risked breaking the law and called him. He's a very nice guy, and was pretty forthcoming with details. He recommended to call either Fotocare in NY, or Dodd Camera in Cleveland, for rental/demo information. I didn't proceed any further though, since the 65 back is not out yet -- to me, that's the only Sinar game in town.

But I just wanted to report back that, yes, there are humans in the United States that deal in Sinar cameras. (I was not sure).

For the record, I give you a lot of grief, but you come here into a situation with a lot of (frustrated) history in MediumFormat Land. I give you credit for staying in the hot kitchen; you hold your own very well.
Well noted, thanks!

Quote from: gwhitf
Promise me this though -- promise me that you'll have this full Hy6/65 system out, tweaked, and shipping in volume before you announce another camera/back, OK? Get one thing right before you move on to the next, please. A lot of Medium Format marketing feels like a Manhattan sidewalk Shell Game -- you think you've got your solution spotted, and then it changes to the next option, and thus, you never buy anything. Always waiting for the next announced product -- and never buying anything.
I guess it will be so, out before any new announcement, and working. I suppose your remark is not only aimed at Sinar, isn't it? It reminds me when I wanted to buy my first Mac, it took me 2 1/2 years.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Saša D. Karić
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« Reply #117 on: October 06, 2008, 10:20:48 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Thierry,

I rolled the dice today and called MIKE FLUITT and talked to him. Honestly, there was no listed dealer for my state, so I thought it might be illegal for me to buy an Hy6 and a 65, but I risked breaking the law and called him. He's a very nice guy, and was pretty forthcoming with details. He recommended to call either Fotocare in NY, or Dodd Camera in Cleveland, for rental/demo information. I didn't proceed any further though, since the 65 back is not out yet -- to me, that's the only Sinar game in town.

Jeff at Fotocare in NY sell's Hasselblad and Sinar, you can test both before purchase...

I may end up with Hy6 LEAF or SINAR System sooner than I thought!
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Saša D. Karić
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« Reply #118 on: October 06, 2008, 10:27:52 PM »
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Thierry, is there a place/office in Europe, Russia or Asia where one from North America can rent Sinar Hy6 models
purely for testing purposes before they become available in every authorized North American store?


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thsinar
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« Reply #119 on: October 06, 2008, 10:49:44 PM »
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Dear Saša,

yes, sure there are, in Europe and Asia (I would have to ask my colleague concerning Russia). I am not sure why you would rent a Hy6 camera system in these plaes if you are in North America and when these systems are available from our distributor there SBI or who can tell you where to rent?

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: Saša D. Karić
Thierry, is there a place/office in Europe, Russia or Asia where one from North America can rent Sinar Hy6 models
purely for testing purposes before they become available in every authorized North American store?
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Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
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