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Question: If you had to start from scratch today, which MF system would you buy into today
Hasselblad H3D: Scandinavian precision rocks! - 38 (29%)
Sinar/Leaf Hy6/Afi: Swiss/German/Israelii precision rocks! - 46 (35.1%)
Phase One/Mamiya AFDIII: Danish/Japanese precision rocks! - 24 (18.3%)
Leica S2: German precision rocks! - 9 (6.9%)
Nikon MX: Japanese precision rocks! - 8 (6.1%)
You forgot my brand so I'll rock you! - 6 (4.6%)
Total Voters: 123

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Saša D. Karić
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« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2008, 10:23:30 AM »
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Thierry how about that black colour, is that happening anytime soon?
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eronald
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« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2008, 04:49:43 PM »
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From these answers, it looks like Phase is caught in a downwards trend. That is certainly unexpected.

Edmund
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rethmeier
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« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2008, 06:06:56 PM »
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I'm very happy with my Sinar Hy6/75LVr combo.

I even like the color scheme!  

However I'm looking forward to their 35 mm lens and the wide sensor to fully optimize the lenses.

Andre,if you want a name change for your Sinar/Leaf  Hy6/Afi ,all you have to do replace the viewfinders with the Rolleiflex ones.

Cheers,

Willem.
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Willem Rethmeier
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James R Russell
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« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2008, 06:08:25 PM »
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Quote from: eronald
From these answers, it looks like Phase is caught in a downwards trend. That is certainly unexpected.

Edmund


Edmund,

These type of polls are kind of like what you do if you won the lottery.  

It's different when it comes time to really write the check.

I do think all of medium format needs to think hard about pricing, but when push comes to shove and it's time to get to work, I'd probably buy just what I've got now, including the Contax,  as I know it works, I know the software, I know it's stable and unless anything really remarkable comes out, I wouldn't do anything different.

I do think that Phase hurt themself by being late on V4 pro.  Not that you can't work with 3.78, it's still the most stable and usable tethering software I've tried but there is just some good faith lost when something as important as software is late and until now, Phase had that as a major plus.

JR

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eronald
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« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2008, 06:21:47 PM »
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James,

I agree with you. In fact, I think the results of the poll reflects the perception of quality people now have of the MF solutions presently manufactured. That's exactly what you mean by "What you'd buy if you win the lottery". And perception of quality is exactly what first time buyers use as a criterion.  I think Phase would be up there at the front of the poll if their technology were perceived as superior. Sic transit gloria mundi.

Edmund

Quote from: James R Russell
Edmund,

These type of polls are kind of like what you do if you won the lottery.  

It's different when it comes time to really write the check.

I do think all of medium format needs to think hard about pricing, but when push comes to shove and it's time to get to work, I'd probably buy just what I've got now, including the Contax,  as I know it works, I know the software, I know it's stable and unless anything really remarkable comes out, I wouldn't do anything different.

I do think that Phase hurt themself by being late on V4 pro.  Not that you can't work with 3.78, it's still the most stable and usable tethering software I've tried but there is just some good faith lost when something as important as software is late and until now, Phase had that as a major plus.

JR
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James R Russell
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« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2008, 06:39:34 PM »
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Quote from: eronald
James,

I agree with you. In fact, I think the results of the poll reflects the perception of quality people now have of the MF solutions presently manufactured. That's exactly what you mean by "What you'd buy if you win the lottery". And perception of quality is exactly what first time buyers use as a criterion.  I think Phase would be up there at the front of the poll if their technology were perceived as superior. Sic transit gloria mundi.

Edmund


When you work day in and day out Phase is probably considered the most stable and not just by the owners, who tend to be brand loyal, but just about every rental house will have the same opinion.

I'm not pushing phase, they have thier own set of issues, (let's not talk about lcds) and the functionality of the back menu is fairly non intuitive, especially now in the world on iphones and ipod touches where you visually just punch in what you see.

In fact that little nikon d-90 is much more intuitive than any medium format back I've used, just checking focus is push and watch.

Still, your poll reflects buying a back and camera from the same company and also combines Leaf and Sinar into one brand, which I am not sure is the case.  You also list a mythical Nikon MX and until we see it, knows that it tethers, etc. etc., it's just a thought.

It also doesn't take into account if rentals are available or for that matter how we really use these things.

I'd bet, and I don't know the numbers that Leaf and Phase probably still sell as many backs in H-mounts as they do their own new cameras, (I don't have any evidence of this).

But let's be realistic, nearly all of medium format is missing something.

Phase is waiting on leaf shutter lenses, the HY6 needs a 35mm wide angle, Hasselblad has been very slow on their software and still can't get the same functions out of the Kodak sensors that Phase had two years ago.

The new Sinar seems very interesting, but as far as I'm concerned all of these new annoucements from photokina are just vaporware until they actually get on the shelf and get proven in use, so if I was buying today, I'd just do a P30 or a p30+ find some more Contax gear and get on with my life.

Actually, if I was going to add to your poll I would have a spot for would you buy a medium format back again, because I see a lot of people I know put their backs on the for sale section of this forum.  Even to take it further I would make it price dependent, price non dependent.

I think that would change the numbers also.

JR
« Last Edit: October 04, 2008, 06:42:35 PM by James R Russell » Logged

eronald
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« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2008, 06:56:29 PM »
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James,

 Again I have to agree with what you say. What is more I have a feeling that a lot of people here are going to pick up a 5DII to tryout, and suddenly realize they shot their campaigns with it ... There's nothing more dangerous to an established heavyweight technology than an agile toy -

Edmund



Quote from: James R Russell
When you work day in and day out Phase is probably considered the most stable and not just by the owners, who tend to be brand loyal, but just about every rental house will have the same opinion.

I'm not pushing phase, they have thier own set of issues, (let's not talk about lcds) and the functionality of the back menu is fairly non intuitive, especially now in the world on iphones and ipod touches where you visually just punch in what you see.

In fact that little nikon d-90 is much more intuitive than any medium format back I've used, just checking focus is push and watch.

Still, your poll reflects buying a back and camera from the same company and also combines Leaf and Sinar into one brand, which I am not sure is the case.  You also list a mythical Nikon MX and until we see it, knows that it tethers, etc. etc., it's just a thought.

It also doesn't take into account if rentals are available or for that matter how we really use these things.

I'd bet, and I don't know the numbers that Leaf and Phase probably still sell as many backs in H-mounts as they do their own new cameras, (I don't have any evidence of this).

But let's be realistic, nearly all of medium format is missing something.

Phase is waiting on leaf shutter lenses, the HY6 needs a 35mm wide angle, Hasselblad has been very slow on their software and still can't get the same functions out of the Kodak sensors that Phase had two years ago.

The new Sinar seems very interesting, but as far as I'm concerned all of these new annoucements from photokina are just vaporware until they actually get on the shelf and get proven in use, so if I was buying today, I'd just do a P30 or a p30+ find some more Contax gear and get on with my life.

Actually, if I was going to add to your poll I would have a spot for would you buy a medium format back again, because I see a lot of people I know put their backs on the for sale section of this forum.  Even to take it further I would make it price dependent, price non dependent.

I think that would change the numbers also.

JR
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« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2008, 09:35:39 PM »
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I shoot on a H3D 22 - I like it, but I think I'd love to go mam 645 - just on sheer cost of the lenses. I only own the 80, rent everything else. I like the H3 body more than the Mam, but I want a zoom, a wide, extended and I dont want to take out a second mortgage on my life. so maybe a mam645 w/ a CF22 or even P25. I dotn need 1/800 leaf shutter lenses either presently (if ever??)

I thought the body/lens integration would be significant for me but it isnt. Phocus is a bust, no ISO bump, runs lame, doesnt run on my laptop. Flex is great, solid, but clunky. I use lightroom 95% of the time anyhow.

problem is, ya see, the market on used DBs/leased DBs has had the bottom fall out, so I dont think it'd be possible to trade and move over...kinda sh*tty situation to be in right now
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thsinar
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« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2008, 09:58:14 PM »
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James,

No vaporware with the Sinar Hy6 65: the first demo units are being delivered to distributors, as promised and announced.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: James R Russell
The new Sinar seems very interesting, but as far as I'm concerned all of these new annoucements from photokina are just vaporware until they actually get on the shelf and get proven in use, so if I was buying today, I'd just do a P30 or a p30+ find some more Contax gear and get on with my life.

JR
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2008, 12:13:37 AM »
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Quote from: eronald
If that case of equipment got stolen from your hotel room tomorrow, and the wife let you use the insurance money for something other than a new kitchen, what would you buy ?

Edmund
Quite a tough question, for the removable digital capture, I would go to Sinar system because the same back goes on varies platform, which is indeed flexible. The lens choice, if counted by what is available from 6008/Hy6, to the large format lenses, is without doubt the largest selection ever in photography offering, and also count Alpa 12 as part of system - although that also include Phase and Other back (may be not H3 series back because it is not really that portable).
The S2 is another offering that,  to me, it is likely a large size point & shoot type of camera of medium format quality (suppose it deliver what it said to deliver and I have no doubt), it will works the way today medium format digital back users take 1Ds 1/2/3 or 5D as back up, because it is really portable. Especially the S2 is claimed to be weather and moisture proof.  I think the digital back offer the choice of adapting the device to a varies technical platform that camera such as typical SLR type camera cannot match - especially when you consider the camera like ArTec, you really do not need to up-grade to higher megapixels back to get giga pixels picture, it allow you to attach lens of lager image circle and all you need to do is to stitch the captures - may be more useful for landscape, architecture and interior, but for studio production, it has its value as well.
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« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2008, 01:48:20 AM »
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Quote from: thsinar
No vaporware with the Sinar Hy6 65: the first demo units are being delivered to distributors, as promised and announced.

Where can you rent one in the United States today?
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James R Russell
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« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2008, 02:12:24 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Where can you rent one in the United States today?


Where can you buy on in the United States today?

What is the U.S. List price?

Does the new software work with this camera and is it tested and stable?  (enough to bet an imporant project on it).

Will the software run tethered on a Mac Pro and a Mac Book Pro without issue?

If so what is the time from capture to full rez preview?

How long to batch process 900 pixel wide jpegs, how long to batch process full resolution tiffs?

Does the software allow for renaming, background processing, dual window editing?

Does the software in dual window work on multiple monitors and pick up the calibration of each monitor?

Are the DNG files compatible with photoshop, lightroom, C1 V4, Raw Developer?

Does the camera LCD work when tethered and if so how long does the image stay on the back?

Are there any reports of jams, file corruption, firewire powered issues?

Does the back read the complete exif info on expsoure, time shot, lens used, aperture and shutter speed?

JR

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bradleygibson
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« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2008, 02:38:26 AM »
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Quote from: eronald
From these answers, it looks like Phase is caught in a downwards trend. That is certainly unexpected.

Edmund

Yes, I'm surprised by this too, Edmund.  Not sure it means anything in the real world, though but it is interesting.

Thierry- I tend to agree with James.  Products aren't real until one can take one home.  I have no doubts that the 65R is on its way, but I don't think we can call it 'done' just yet.

-Brad
« Last Edit: October 05, 2008, 02:39:04 AM by bradleygibson » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2008, 04:11:57 AM »
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edmund,
i certainly agree that there shouldnt be a vote cameras which dont exist, from which noone ever has seen a frame, no price exists or even noone knows if they even will hit the market.  i wouldnt see that the leica and more the nikon are in this respect comparable to the 65back from sinar.  the nikon is pure speculation and the leica exist as prototype  without specs and prices, so its hard to understand why they are in the poll and even harder how one can seriously vote for them. the spirit from sinar is ready, with all specs and prices and is on the way to the dealers, so its really a different thing.
further i dont see much sense why you have put sinar and leaf together. you havent done this with leica phase ( and you are right that you havent done so ) , they announced partnership too.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2008, 04:15:34 AM by rainer_v » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2008, 04:24:13 AM »
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Quote from: James R Russell
Where can you buy on in the United States today?

What is the U.S. List price?

Does the new software work with this camera and is it tested and stable?  (enough to bet an imporant project on it).

Will the software run tethered on a Mac Pro and a Mac Book Pro without issue?

If so what is the time from capture to full rez preview?

How long to batch process 900 pixel wide jpegs, how long to batch process full resolution tiffs?

Does the software allow for renaming, background processing, dual window editing?

Does the software in dual window work on multiple monitors and pick up the calibration of each monitor?

Are the DNG files compatible with photoshop, lightroom, C1 V4, Raw Developer?

Does the camera LCD work when tethered and if so how long does the image stay on the back?

Are there any reports of jams, file corruption, firewire powered issues?

Does the back read the complete exif info on expsoure, time shot, lens used, aperture and shutter speed?

JR

That really does say it all!!!!!!!!

Murray

ps Theirry - please pass that on
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« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2008, 04:36:50 AM »
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Quote from: EPd
(I am personally sick of this whole concept where the testing has to be done by the clients - after they have spend their money. At this level of professionalism (and price level) products have to fully work as advertised in the environment where they are supposed to be used. Why do I have to agree to a disclaimer that says "software is supplied 'as is' and no warranties are made that it will work" in order to be able to use very expensive, professional equipment?)

I was talking to a friend who consults for the steel industry. He says that at these prices, he would be expected to give a performance guarantee.

Kumar
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« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2008, 04:46:21 AM »
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Hmm... looks like a great result for the Leafy Sinars.

Only problem is, most of us aren't starting from a clean sheet of paper. I'm sitting here looking a two AFD/II bodies and a dozen Mamiya lenses... and its my backup camera.

This means that Phase's strategy seems a pretty good one to me.
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« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2008, 05:07:01 AM »
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Quote from: James R Russell
Where can you buy on in the United States today?

What is the U.S. List price?

Does the new software work with this camera and is it tested and stable?  (enough to bet an imporant project on it).

Will the software run tethered on a Mac Pro and a Mac Book Pro without issue?

If so what is the time from capture to full rez preview?

How long to batch process 900 pixel wide jpegs, how long to batch process full resolution tiffs?

Does the software allow for renaming, background processing, dual window editing?

Does the software in dual window work on multiple monitors and pick up the calibration of each monitor?

Are the DNG files compatible with photoshop, lightroom, C1 V4, Raw Developer?

Does the camera LCD work when tethered and if so how long does the image stay on the back?

Are there any reports of jams, file corruption, firewire powered issues?

Does the back read the complete exif info on expsoure, time shot, lens used, aperture and shutter speed?

JR

I'm interested in the s65r, I'd appreciate a thorough report/review of each point James has made.

Cheers  
« Last Edit: October 05, 2008, 05:08:42 AM by elitegroup » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2008, 05:53:35 AM »
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Quote from: elitegroup
I'm interested in the s65r, I'd appreciate a thorough report/review of each point James has made.

Cheers  

I would add to this - does the camera focus correctly under the conditions I expect to use it ?

Edmund
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thsinar
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« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2008, 06:41:22 AM »
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James,

- I have published the prices, even in US$, shortly before Photokina: the prices in the US should be about the same, here:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=27940

Contact anyone of SBI's Sales Manager:

SINAR BRON IMAGING REGIONAL SALES MANAGERS

MARK MATHER
mmather@sinarbron.com
CA, ID, NV, OR, WA
(661) 252-9460 (OFFICE)
(661) 252-9470 (FAX)

JIM REED
jreed@sinarbron.com
NJ, LONG ISLAND, NEW YORK CITY
(917) 402-7550 (OFFICE)
(866) 498-4951 (FAX)
 
MIKE FLUITT
mfluitt@sinarbron.com
AR, KS, LA, MO, OK, TX
(972) 841-2360 (OFFICE)

DAVE MCRITCHIE
dmcritchie@sinarbron.com
CT, DE, MA, MD, ME, NH, PA, RI, UPSTATE NY, VA, VT, WASHINGTON DC, WV
(603) 867-1813 (OFFICE)
(603) 965-0328 (FAX)

- The software works, with this camera, but fact is, that it does not even need it anymore. Remember, this camera system and back produces on-board DNG's and JPG's.

- The software does run tethered, so far without any noticeable problem from what I have seen.

- Speed of capture: I haven't tried it myself, but should be a little slower (possibly 1.5 - 2.0 sec.) than the capture rate (1 fps), depending on the Mac configuration.

- 900 pixel JPGs: as explained, they are produced on-board (un-tethered), with different choices of resolution.

- renaming, background processing, dual window editing: all this has been informed already, and the answer is yes.

- dual window/multiple windows: you can "layout" your Exposure windows/plugins as you wish, on 2 monitors, if needed. As for picking up the calibration: this is one I have to check.

- DNG compatibility: this has been answered already as well. The answer is yes.

- Display: the display shows the captured image until it is in the Mac/PC (yes, there is also a PC version with the very same functions as the Mac version).

- jams, file corruption, firewire powered issues: not yet, as far as I am concerned.

- Does the back read the complete exif info on expsoure, time shot, lens used, aperture and shutter speed: yes, it does so (except for older lenses).

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: James R Russell
Where can you buy on in the United States today?

What is the U.S. List price?

Does the new software work with this camera and is it tested and stable?  (enough to bet an imporant project on it).

Will the software run tethered on a Mac Pro and a Mac Book Pro without issue?

If so what is the time from capture to full rez preview?

How long to batch process 900 pixel wide jpegs, how long to batch process full resolution tiffs?

Does the software allow for renaming, background processing, dual window editing?

Does the software in dual window work on multiple monitors and pick up the calibration of each monitor?

Are the DNG files compatible with photoshop, lightroom, C1 V4, Raw Developer?

Does the camera LCD work when tethered and if so how long does the image stay on the back?

Are there any reports of jams, file corruption, firewire powered issues?

Does the back read the complete exif info on expsoure, time shot, lens used, aperture and shutter speed?

JR
« Last Edit: October 05, 2008, 06:47:23 AM by thsinar » Logged

Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
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