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Author Topic: I'm back.  (Read 41218 times)
yaya
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« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2008, 12:33:56 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
I'm back.

Like many manufacturers, Phase One has been hesitant to officially participate in online forums. There is a risk in having employees post, including the potential of inappropriately revealing confidential information, getting involved in tit for tat exchanges, as well as the challenge of communicating effectively online, which is a language unto itself. It can be a negative experience for a manufacturer.

However recently during some internal discussions at Phase One someone (it wasn't me) indicated that we really should have some interactive presence. A few other manufacturers do and I feel overall it has been a positive for all involved. And really today many manufacturers do participate in online forums, blogs, etc, including some extremely large companies throughout the world. While Phase One employees certainly lurk here, being able to actively participate in dialogue not only further helps our communication to the community, but also helps the company understand the perspectives of the end user more effectively.

So, all that being said, guess who nominated himself against his better judgement? Gone are the free evenings and weekends, the ability to focus on task during the day. But on a certain level, I have also missed participating and instead having to hold my tongue (or fingers).

Since I'm relatively new to Phase One and had very little hands on experience with Phase One in the past, I will at least initially be somewhat limited technically in any responses. In the past my primary purpose was to make sure things were accurate - users or desired users understood what a product could do or could not do, not necessarily how to do it. And I hope to also be able to provide some helpful context from the manufacturers equation in what we're up against day to day. I hope we can learn from each other.

I'm glad to be back.

Steve Hendrix
Phase One

Steve,

It was a pleasure knowing you and having you here (and there) as an ally,

I am sure it'll be just as good having you here as a competitor. You have earned every bit of respect and I hope that your new home appreciates it and lets you have the right freedom of speech.

Good luck

Yair


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gwhitf
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« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2008, 12:37:13 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
The funny thing about Phase is  they make one hell of a good product and have by all accounts 1/2 the market.  Imagine how well they would do if they just shot straight and answered a question or two like does V 4.5 tether with a Canon.

I am quoting Big Cooter, but I'm directing this to Steve:

What Cooter's talking about above is what makes this so frustrating. Phase *does* make a great product, in terms of the file quality, and the Software. Yes, there is a reason they're a market leader, but with Market Share, also comes responsibility to communicate effectively with their clients.

Think about this: I can remember that Capture One version 4 Pro was due out, *seriously, no kidding*, TWO YEARS AGO. Think about what this does to loyal customers' attitudes, especially when Lightroom and even Raw Developer (one man in his underwear, drinking Dr Pepper, above an Italian Deli)  is doing.

And aggravated even further when it looks so ugly when, for some odd reason, the ability to Tether to a 1ds3 keeps getting delayed and delayed. Hmm. Why could that be? So you think: Is Phase a software company, or a camera company, or a back company? And God forbid that anyone would think that Phase would purposely hold back the release of CaptureOne Pro 4, to make it impossible for the 1ds3 to tether effectively. Let's banish that thought. No way Phase would do that, right...? But gosh, it sure does make a man wonder. And it makes Phase look pretty bad. It just sends a possible message that says, "Hey, we can't compete with the 1ds3 fair and square, on the open market, on our own merits, so let's tell the Software part of the company to just hold back the Pro software for a year or even two, to try to cripple the usability of the 1ds3".

And let's not even get into the LCD thing, or the P65 price thing, or that promised WIFI thing. Or their Phase forum, and how the questions get answered SELECTIVELY, depending only on how much each question embarrasses the company. You want a reponse to a Phase Forum question? Just ask, "Gosh, Ulf, how do you stay looking so young and handsome?" That's the only question that'll get answered.

It's a little known fact that, when you translate the words "Phase One" from Danish to English, it translates to "The Boy That Cried Wolf".

So Steve, welcome to your new position. I hope you still have your great sense of humor, because you're going to need it. And more than anything, Phase One needs some too, along with just the tiniest amount of Humanity. I'll bet when you walk into their Boardroom, you'd see a row of those ancient oil paintings of frowning CEOs, holding their pocketwatches, and scowling down on the employees (and customers).
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 01:49:24 PM by gwhitf » Logged
Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2008, 12:59:24 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Guy,

You may not like Snook's message but take it for real because he's a full retail paying customer and is just asking for what Phase One promised.  Snook didn't make up the term leaf shutter lenses coming soon, that came from Phase.

And Guy, none of us care what deals you have with anyone, but obviously you have something cooking with CI because you mention their name more times than John McCain mentions the term Maverick.

And let's not blow any smoke here.  There are more deals and brand loyalty floating around this forum than at a G8 summit, so let's stop the everything is perfect in Phase One land ( or Sinar or Leaf or Hasselblad Land ) and talk straight because the only real problem with Phase One is they can't keep their message on track, or give out any real information that allows someone to really decide if they want to stay or leave.

Phase missed there own deadlines on the software and from Annoucakina their demonstration crashed, so that doesn't make anyone that works for a living too happy to hear that.

As far as communication, Steve, your going to have more work cut out for you than if you just became the political ambassador for the Kremlin.  Phase doesn't talk and if they do, they don't talk where anyone can understand what the hell they are saying.

How about trying this.  When a customer asks 12 questions, answer all 12, not the three that sound good.  If Phase is using old russian glass, then say so.  If C-1 will never tether a 1ds3 then say so.  Keep it straight.


The funny thing about Phase is  they make one hell of a good product and have by all accounts 1/2 the market.  Imagine how well they would do if they just shot straight and answered a question or two like does V 4.5 tether with a Canon.

The second funny thing is they did a lot more work on that plastic Mamiya than they tell. They reworked the electronics and made a much better camera and if they could stop taking 4 week holidays they could probably get the lenses out faster.

That Mamiya platform may not have the bling of a Rollei or a Leica, but it does have a focal plane shutter and CAN have leaf shutter lenses to boot.  That is something the HY6 and the blad will never be able to do, but first they better start making some glass and get it on the shelves.  Second they MUST open up the line of communication with a no B.S. response, because if they don't offer more than Hasselblad, at current prices they will lose market share.

Now one other thing, if they are going to stick with the Mamiya name or Phamiya name they better get to better prices, because like it or not bling does carry some weight.

And i am not a full paying customer , want to see my invoice. Give me a break. To do a LCD like everyone wants they have to take the 4 button push button system out of it which everyone wants and than completely redesign the back and move the buttons to the corners. Time and money. The rest is not worth my time sorry .
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Mitchell Baum
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« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2008, 01:29:44 PM »
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This thread reminds me:

I live in a very small town in Maine. We have a nice little 4th of July parade. A few years back, the new grammar school principal marched in the parade. He wore ripped clothes, a sign that read "First Year Principle," and a target full of arrows in his back. It was great!
The next year the sign read "Second Year Principle," and he was in a strait jacket.
The pleasures of small town life...

Best,

Mitchell
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 01:51:55 PM by Mitchell Baum » Logged
Dale Allyn
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« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2008, 01:44:08 PM »
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Hi Steve,

I'm glad you're here (again). Good luck to you in your new position, Phase One and we Phase users are lucky to have you here.

Best,

Dale
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gwhitf
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« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2008, 01:46:14 PM »
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Quote from: Mitchell Baum
This thread reminds me:

I live in a very small town in Maine. We have a nice little 4th of July parade. A few years back, the new grammer school principle marched in the parade. He wore ripped clothes, a sign that read "First Year Principle," and a target full of arrows in his back. It was great!
The next year the sign read "Second Year Principle," and he was in a strait jacket.
The pleasures of small town life...

Best,

Mitchell

If he was reading this, (and let's hope he's not), then he would do a couple of cross-throughs, and change "principle" to "principal", and "grammer" to "grammar"!

But you still get a Gold Star for telling this story. I fully expect Steve Hendrix to show up for PhotoExpo (one week from Halloween), dressed in a Kevlar Jacket, or a padded suit like Mike Myers wore as Fat Bastard. He might be wise to do this.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 01:48:23 PM by gwhitf » Logged
Mitchell Baum
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« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2008, 01:54:25 PM »
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Thanks Gwhitf,

A bit embarrassing. I edited so now no one will know what you're talking about.
Your name is pretty tuff to spill.

Best,

Mitchell
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gwhitf
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« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2008, 01:58:20 PM »
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Quote from: Mitchell Baum
Thanks Gwhitf,

A bit embarrassing. I edited so now no one will know what you're talking about.
Your name is pretty tuff to spill.

Maybe if the sign he was wearing really DID say "First Year Principle", there would be appropriate reasons why he might be full of arrows. Or maybe he was trying to send a whole other message.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 01:58:45 PM by gwhitf » Logged
tho_mas
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« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2008, 03:25:19 PM »
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The lack of information honestly bothers me too.

There's the "new" T/S lens. You can order it. But none can tell you what it is made of.
If it would be Mamiya glass Phase would make a big headline. If it would be Zeiss glass even a bigger headline.
But there is no headline and no information. So I ask why in the world is this far less than medicore lens now at 3000,-? Why? What is the special thing that makes it worth that price?

You can order the P65+. The press release says that the chip is upgradable. Sounds like the P65+ could be a DB for a lifetime or at least for many, many years.
But none can say what "upgradable" really means. So by now it's a paper tiger. But you can order it!

C1: are they going to make profiles stick or not? Will they make the cache location user selectable or not? ... ... ...
I do not doubt that C1 V4 Pro will be out on 15th. But honestly I assume that the release notes will be... long. Serveral small things that will not work yet. And no information about the date they finally will be fixed.

The P45 is still not supported for tethered shooting on Windows Vista. How long is Vista on the market now? One year? Probably longer.
1 year for a firmware update and it's still not there!

I appreciate very much that someone of Phase One joins the forum now. Hopefully helps to clarify things.
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Snook
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« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2008, 03:52:15 PM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
The lack of information honestly bothers me too.

There's the "new" T/S lens. You can order it. But none can tell you what it is made of.
If it would be Mamiya glass Phase would make a big headline. If it would be Zeiss glass even a bigger headline.
But there is no headline and no information. So I ask why in the world is this far less than medicore lens now at 3000,-? Why? What is the special thing that makes it worth that price?

You can order the P65+. The press release says that the chip is upgradable. Sounds like the P65+ could be a DB for a lifetime or at least for many, many years.
But none can say what "upgradable" really means. So by now it's a paper tiger. But you can order it!

C1: are they going to make profiles stick or not? Will they make the cache location user selectable or not? ... ... ...
I do not doubt that C1 V4 Pro will be out on 15th. But honestly I assume that the release notes will be... long. Serveral small things that will not work yet. And no information about the date they finally will be fixed.

The P45 is still not supported for tethered shooting on Windows Vista. How long is Vista on the market now? One year? Probably longer.
1 year for a firmware update and it's still not there!

I appreciate very much that someone of Phase One joins the forum now. Hopefully helps to clarify things.


Well I am glad also, but sorry to say they will probably not be clarified as I do not think even the people at phase know what is up.
It's like, I hate to say it, a bunch of stoners who kind willow around and not really say or do anything. Constantly.
Upgradeable? upgradeable to what... another back later on, which we have recently seen really useful with leaf as they bailed on the offer they promised to everyone.
Or Upgradeable the actual sensor... Great. you can change out the Sensor in 4 years and still have the stupid small LCD like they have now..
Certainly hope, for the ones that will buy a P65+, it will be upgradeable to a newer back and not sensor.

Don't mean to sound harsh on Phase but it is frustrating when you they are so evasive and cold about their PR'ing.

Even worst I love my P30...:+} I feel they have great service,I just experienced first hand  with that on a broken P30. Great fast service and very helpful on everyones part at Phase.
That is why I would like to see them prosper and grow, but not at snails pace to where it becomes frustrating...
Just feel Phase is letting people down slowly with not really fessing up to some of their lateness on their promised products and dates.
We'll all have Leica S2 and Nikon MX's before Phase get's C-1 Pro 4.5.1 and maybe a leafshutter lens on the market...:+}

Now I see why phase leeched on to mamiya, I think they had no other choice with all the other back makers coupling up with camera/lens makers!!
It might have been with Contax if it would have happen years back...

Snook

Hey but welcome to the Phase gang..



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tho_mas
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« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2008, 04:04:49 PM »
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Quote from: Snook
Upgradeable? upgradeable to what... another back later on
http://www.phaseone.com/upload/phase_one_p...ess_release.pdf
Quote
Improvements and upgrades based on Sensor+ technology have been
designed to enable:
-- Scaleable pixel and file size
-- Higher sensitivity & dynamic range
-- Increased flexibility for operation and capture
-- Improved capture rates
The P 65+ digital back and the P 65+ camera system are fully
upgradeable, based on advancements in the chip technology, providing
a competitive advantage through enhanced performance and new
functions as well as a lower overall cost of operation. Such
improvements have previously been available only at the cost of new
chips and hardware.
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ynp
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« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2008, 12:47:37 AM »
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It is binning, right?
Yevgeny
Quote from: tho_mas
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2008, 01:30:22 AM »
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Hi Steve,
Glad you're back and hope you got a break in between to rest up.  Ha now that you're back - what's the news re: phase backs on the Hy6?   Wow that would be cool to see a Hy6 / p65+
Eric


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tho_mas
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« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2008, 03:45:21 AM »
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Quote from: ynp
It is binning, right?
Binning is what they name "scaleable pixel and file size".
Basically binning is 4 pixels are pooled to one. The P65+ has 6micron pixel. With binnging it works like having 12micron pixel.
At a quarter of the resolution you gain 1 stop less noise an the chip level.
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thsinar
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« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2008, 06:49:02 AM »
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A sincere welcome back, Steve!

Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2008, 07:40:07 AM »
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Thank you very much! The marketing speak sometimes is too much for a non-native English speaker  
It looks like the same technology P1 used in the PhaseOne db20 (P20) years ago. As I remember, an 800 ASA file was half the size of the lower sensitivity files.
Yevgeny

Quote from: tho_mas
Binning is what they name "scaleable pixel and file size".
Basically binning is 4 pixels are pooled to one. The P65+ has 6micron pixel. With binnging it works like having 12micron pixel.
At a quarter of the resolution you gain 1 stop less noise an the chip level.
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BrianSmith
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« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2008, 08:16:00 AM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
The lack of information honestly bothers me too.

There's the "new" T/S lens. You can order it. But none can tell you what it is made of.
If it would be Mamiya glass Phase would make a big headline. If it would be Zeiss glass even a bigger headline.
But there is no headline and no information. So I ask why in the world is this far less than medicore lens now at 3000,-? Why? What is the special thing that makes it worth that price?

Tho,

You probably know this but it Hartblei glass.

I have one with a Contax mount adapter and it's a nice funky lens with a  the vintage look.

Phase bought up all of Hartblei's of 45mm Super Rotator lenses and "supposedly" had them re-coated and improved the mount adapter.

Hartblei 45mm Super Rotator cost $450...

Hartblei mount adapter for Mamiya cost thirty bucks...

Re-coating the lens wo't make it sharper. It will probably just ruin the vintage look...

Charging $3,000 for a $450 lens with a new lens mount is about like charging $65,000 for a Hyundai 'cause you put a Cadillac hood ornament on it.

You gotta love MFDB makers.

I think they've all just booked a week the same Spa where the AIG execs hang out...
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tho_mas
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« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2008, 09:23:00 AM »
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Quote from: ynp
It looks like the same technology P1 used in the PhaseOne db20 (P20) years ago. As I remember, an 800 ASA file was half the size of the lower sensitivity files.
Binning is not a new thing as far as I know. But Phase/Dalsa improved it. So I expect that it's more than just 1 stop less noise. Too, I expect that further firmware updates will allow to shoot at a half of the resolution (so you probably will get clean ISO800 at 30MP). But I'm just speculating. Would be helpful when someone finally tell us what they are going to do with binning and what exactly "upgradable" means. An upgrade in ISO and DR? Yes, porbably. Faster image processing of the full resolution capture? Hard to imagine without an upgrade in hardware (the processor itself).

Quote from: BrianSmith
You probably know this
Yes, I know the Hartblei lens. That's certainly fine if you intendedly want to create some trashy, smooth look. And for less than 1000,- that's a funny piece to play with.
You still can buy it with Conatx Mount from Marek Wiese (Hamburg, Germany) who originally designed the lens years ago (as far as the story is true).
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bcooter
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« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2008, 11:24:39 AM »
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Quote from: BrianSmith
You gotta love MFDB makers.

I think they've all just booked a week the same Spa where the AIG execs hang out...

If medium format execs are at the spa they are probably talking about Hasselblad prices and Canon 5d2's

Don't think for a moment that the Hasselblad announcement didn't rock that industry and for whatever reason Hasselblad has just yanked $10,000 out of the purchase price for their  cameras.

Canon even went further and offered better image quality than their top end camera for less than half the price and threw in video for free.

Medium format is caught between a rock and a hard place and it's all their own doing.

They've locked themselves into specialty, value added dealers because the systems were complicated and needed a lot of support for the new user, so unlike other forms of electronic goods the margins were fat.  

Medium format didn't invest in support and allowed their dealers to be the first line of defense.  Other than Leaf Of America, no medium format brand has a system like Canon's CPS where you can get direct customer support and repair.  Does anyone really want to deal with a problem that requires them to call the dealer, who in turn files a report with the maker, who in turn responds to the dealer, who in turn calls the customer with a support number and an address of where to send the camera?

Medium format has also limited their popularity by controlling the market for used backs. At this stage, entry level digital backs should be $5,000, not 12, 15, or 21 thousand.  No other electronic product is controlled this way.    A used Apple G4 does not sell for just a few points less than a Mac Pro and is not limited to purchase by a few value added dealers.

Does anyone really want to buy a used 39mpx back for $21,000 on Ebay that might not have warranty when they can buy a new Hasselblad Camera Body and Lens for the same price.  At $7,000 it's worth the risk, but not at 21 thousand.

The market has changed and most photographers have increased their knowledge of the digital process 10 fold. Medium format has changed in the fact the systems are less complicated.

If you can work Canon's DPP, you can probably work Phocus, C-1, LC11 or Capture Shop by just taking a few hours and watching a tutorial video and you don't have to sit next to a value added dealer to do this.

Bottom line is, if Hasselblad continues down this path and keeps prices low the other makers will have to respond with lowering service, or dealer margins, or god forbid, actually selling their systems in traditional camera stores to increase shelf space.

Shelf space, real or virtual makes all the difference in the world.  Ask any manufacturer of any consumer product what they desire most and it is always increased shelf space at a retail level.

The world is changing in many ways, the photographic industry has to keep up.  I have this feeling that in two years the way you buy a professional digital camera system will be much different than you do today.

Hasselblad seems to recognize this, obviously Canon and Nikon have always known that price and ease of purchase is the key.

So Steve, since your the forum Point Man for Phase how about a few questions;

Does Phase plan on cutting their prices to match Hasselblad?

Does Phase have a system for offering their cameras in more stores?

Does Phase have a real timeline on when new lenses and accessories will be produced and if so will they live to it or will it be like wi-fi and V4.5 pro, which is years late?

Does Phase plan on offering direct customer support?

What is the plan for the Upgradable P65+.  Is it software upgrades, hardware upgrades or both and if so, when, how much?

What is the real truth on Phase/Mamiya/Phamiya lenses.  Will they offer leica, Russian tilt shift glass, new Mamiya lenses with leaf shutters and if they plan on it, how soon, how much?

Will Phase allow you to answer any of these questions?


Big Cooter





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Streetshooter
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« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2008, 11:49:48 AM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Medium format has also limited their popularity by controlling the market for used backs. At this stage, entry level digital backs should be $5,000, not 12, 15, or 21 thousand.  No other electronic product is controlled this way.    A used Apple G4 does not sell for just a few points less than a Mac Pro and is not limited to purchase by a few value added dealers.

Big Cooter

Spot on Big Cooter.  Hell, they should've sold the old backs at real knock down prices, $1000 or so. To students, amateurs, newcomers or whoever. "Here guys, look at the wonderful world of Medium Format Digital on a budget".  Instead of which they controlled the supply and probably killed the market. Everybody bought a Canon 5D instead. The trouble is, at the speed things are developing I reckon there was only one chance for them to have got it right and they missed out.

I wonder where all the old backs are, in a damp and dusty basement somewhere gathering dust ?
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