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Author Topic: I'm back.  (Read 40317 times)
Imaginara
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« Reply #100 on: October 13, 2008, 01:49:04 PM »
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Quote from: TMARK
There are no more Scandinavian Krone, except of course for our Norwegian friends who have elected not to join the EU.  Thus Phase and Blad and Sinar and Leaf (at least to an extent, in as much as the Isreali currency is tied to the Euro, at least in theory) have all of their costs denominated in the Euro.

Swedish currency is still Krona, allthough weak
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #101 on: October 13, 2008, 02:06:29 PM »
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Quote from: SeanBK
Steve, with all due respect to you & Phase One. You posted TWICE that the price HAS been reduced by $2000 or whatever, but all anyone would want to know would be, what is the price of Phase One + backs currently are. Kinda like what Hasselblad does, see
   http://www.hasselbladusa.com/promotions/31-39-promotion.aspx
  While at
   http://phaseone.com/
     Nor reading your posts I can't find what + backs cost will be for H series camera? If you guys are in business of SELLING something, than shouldn't the price be posted? e.g LandRover, Mercedes, BMW....
          As they say in a very old TV show - "Just the facts, 'mam."

Sean:

I am sorry if I was less than complete in my posting, although I was pretty specific about the $2,000 price reduction, there isn't any "whatever" there. With the $2,000 price drop, the list price (in the USA, I must stress) for both P25+ and P30+ is:

$17,999 (digital back)
$20,490 (digital back, camera bundle, classic warranty)
$24,990 (digital back, camera bundle, VA warranty)

I do not know why pricing has changed in the other direction for the Swedish dealer Samuel mentioned. Samuel - are these list prices or the pricing from the dealer?

Steve Hendrix
Phase One


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Steve Hendrix
Sales Manager, www.captureintegration.com (e-mail Me)
MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
TechCam: Alpa/Cambo/Arca Swiss/Sinar
Direct: 404.543.8475
samuel_js
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« Reply #102 on: October 13, 2008, 02:36:12 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Sean:

I am sorry if I was less than complete in my posting, although I was pretty specific about the $2,000 price reduction, there isn't any "whatever" there. With the $2,000 price drop, the list price (in the USA, I must stress) for both P25+ and P30+ is:

$17,999 (digital back)
$20,490 (digital back, camera bundle, classic warranty)
$24,990 (digital back, camera bundle, VA warranty)

I do not know why pricing has changed in the other direction for the Swedish dealer Samuel mentioned. Samuel - are these list prices or the pricing from the dealer?

Steve Hendrix
Phase One

Steve, the prices I posted are from the dealers website.

/Samuel
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SeanBK
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« Reply #103 on: October 13, 2008, 03:29:23 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Sean:

I am sorry if I was less than complete in my posting, although I was pretty specific about the $2,000 price reduction, there isn't any "whatever" there. With the $2,000 price drop, the list price (in the USA, I must stress) for both P25+ and P30+ is:

$17,999 (digital back)
$20,490 (digital back, camera bundle, classic warranty)
$24,990 (digital back, camera bundle, VA warranty)

I do not know why pricing has changed in the other direction for the Swedish dealer Samuel mentioned. Samuel - are these list prices or the pricing from the dealer?

Steve Hendrix
Phase One

Thanks Steve, Since I was a little bit confused, whether $2000 or something else as mention @ prices from across the pond. There was no disrespect (though it might have come across that way) intended toward yoiu or Phase One.  
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #104 on: October 13, 2008, 04:38:10 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Sean:

I am sorry if I was less than complete in my posting, although I was pretty specific about the $2,000 price reduction, there isn't any "whatever" there. With the $2,000 price drop, the list price (in the USA, I must stress) for both P25+ and P30+ is:

$17,999 (digital back)
$20,490 (digital back, camera bundle, classic warranty)
$24,990 (digital back, camera bundle, VA warranty)

I do not know why pricing has changed in the other direction for the Swedish dealer Samuel mentioned. Samuel - are these list prices or the pricing from the dealer?

Steve Hendrix
Phase One


Steve i don't want to put you on the spot but this is the list price that is posted. Getting with a dealer is highly recommended on your final price to purchase. Listing price is just that
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carstenw
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« Reply #105 on: October 13, 2008, 04:58:12 PM »
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Quote from: TMARK
If these companies were half way serious about BUSINESS and MAKING MONEY, they would, assuming they sell a large percentage of their production outside of Euroland, hedge for currency swings.  Every large exporter hedges against currency fluctuations such that large swings in a currency, as has occured in the US Dollar (going down) and the Euro (going up), do not threaten price stability.  If price is being affected by currency swings, someone was asleep at the switch, or the hedges expired and were not renewed, but in that case, they should have planned farther into the future.

Well, there is hedging, and then there is protecting against the world's largest economy going down the drain with a flush. I believe that the latter is best done with insurance... It was a long time coming, sure, but the world's best economists were cheering it on all the way. I don't think anyone could have foreseen the extent to which the US Dollar received a beating in the last few years.
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stevephoto
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« Reply #106 on: October 13, 2008, 05:29:56 PM »
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Quote from: carstenw
Well, there is hedging, and then there is protecting against the world's largest economy going down the drain with a flush. I believe that the latter is best done with insurance... It was a long time coming, sure, but the world's best economists were cheering it on all the way. I don't think anyone could have foreseen the extent to which the US Dollar received a beating in the last few years.

Hedging is how you insure against currency movement. The opportunity for the current moves and moves to come have been well signalled by other leading indicators. If you were not hedged, you were asleep at the wheel. The key is that you are hedging your present costs against the time of your forecast sales cash income. Hedging against your future costs is more complex.
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carstenw
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« Reply #107 on: October 13, 2008, 06:07:56 PM »
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Quote from: stevephoto
If you were not hedged, you were asleep at the wheel.

If the US government and many of the largest banks and insurance companie in the world got caught flat-footed, then I think that small companies specializing in other areas didn't plan for quite this large a movement. Anyway, this is all moot, since we don't know if this is the cause.
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TMARK
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« Reply #108 on: October 13, 2008, 06:50:58 PM »
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Quote from: carstenw
If the US government and many of the largest banks and insurance companie in the world got caught flat-footed, then I think that small companies specializing in other areas didn't plan for quite this large a movement. Anyway, this is all moot, since we don't know if this is the cause.

Well, to be charitable, no one on Wall street was caught flat footed, nor were any of the government bodies.  There is a big difference between being caught unawares, willing myopia, and correct analysis but unable to act due to political will.  Citibank could have collapsed, but did not.  The difference was political will.  Last September - November Citibank almost tanked.  That's right, Citibank, world's number 1 (still?) bank.  BofA and Citi borrowed a few billion (BofA's move was cover for Citi, so as to avoid a panic), shed their bad loans/bad investments, fired management, sold equity to petro states, and is now back to business.  Everyone I know in business in NYC was waiting for the other shoe to drop.  In any case, Toyota, Honda, et al didn't get flat footed, neither did Deutsche Bank.  This crisis is not a surprise to anyone who reads the Financial Times or The Economist.

Over two years ago the Economist raised the alarm about US, Spanish, UK and Irish home values and how leveraged the CDO/commercial paper market was.  If Ulf doesn't have time to read the paper that's OK by me, but he should hire a consultant who does read the paper.

They read the FT at Blad, I'm sure of that.  They might at Sinar, but they don't lead with exports, at least I don't think they do.  I would guess that most of Sinar's revenue comes from Euroland.

Oh yeah, market swings are not insurable, in the sense that you can't buy a policy.  Instead, you buy a position to HEDGE against a currency swing or a bad market.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 08:23:31 PM by TMARK » Logged
stevephoto
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« Reply #109 on: October 14, 2008, 03:04:01 AM »
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Quote from: carstenw
If the US government and many of the largest banks and insurance companie in the world got caught flat-footed, then I think that small companies specializing in other areas didn't plan for quite this large a movement. Anyway, this is all moot, since we don't know if this is the cause.
The US government, like all governments, are clueless about finance. The management of the banks and insurance companies used the credibility of their brands to enter into very high risk ( dangerous ) gambling to create virtual cash centers (profit that never existed) from which they could take cash bonuses ( cash they put in their own private bank accounts from the company bank account).
Some respected hedge funds were very vocal about the dangers but were ignored and then in one of those great ironies of life, they got blamed for having created the problem.
Aside from all that though is the fact that a company trading internationally must always hedge its costs against it's sales regardless of the volatility of currency markets. Medium format cameras have to start competing on price since there is little to choose between each manufacturer and they are now also directly competing with 35mm.
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bcooter
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« Reply #110 on: October 14, 2008, 10:19:53 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Steve i don't want to put you on the spot but this is the list price that is posted. Getting with a dealer is highly recommended on your final price to purchase. Listing price is just that


This is a good point and you can make the dealer system work for you.

Compile a clear and concise list of what you want to buy.  

Then go to the db maker's site of the brand you chose and cut and paste every dealer they list to an email.

Send your list to every dealer in your country, or in the EU every country asking price and delivery dates.

Be sure to do this in one e-mail so the dealers know they are competing and mention you have cash in hand and are ready to buy today.

You may have to send this e-mail a few times to get their attention.

Some dealers won't respond, some will be angry that you are doing a compare price shop,  but some will want to move product and will offer you a deal, usually saving you thousands.

Keep your buying decision based on price.  The manufacturer may want to defer the support and repair of a digital back through the dealer system, but they are ultimately responsible for any fix and the web makes it easy to find the e-mail and contact information for all the db maker's management, so if you have a problem you can get a response and if you have a hardware problem, the dealer doesn't fix it, the maker does, so buy on price.

Now that this forum has representation from every manufacturer you can get most support questions answered here.

Big Cooter
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #111 on: October 14, 2008, 11:17:02 AM »
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Honestly price is great but i want a dealer to be able to support me so for me that maybe my first choice . Is find a dealer that wants to work with you and build that relationship first. I have a nice relationship with CI and all the folks there and for me I find this a very nice support system for me. Both in sales and tech support with there folks. I think once you build that relationship than pricing will be good. But either way find a great dealer to work with and know what you want. Be this with any system and even retail stores on other stuff
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 11:18:14 AM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

Sean Reginald Knight
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« Reply #112 on: October 14, 2008, 12:55:13 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
This is a good point and you can make the dealer system work for you.

Compile a clear and concise list of what you want to buy.  

Then go to the db maker's site of the brand you chose and cut and paste every dealer they list to an email.

Send your list to every dealer in your country, or in the EU every country asking price and delivery dates.

Be sure to do this in one e-mail so the dealers know they are competing and mention you have cash in hand and are ready to buy today.

You may have to send this e-mail a few times to get their attention.

Some dealers won't respond, some will be angry that you are doing a compare price shop,  but some will want to move product and will offer you a deal, usually saving you thousands.

Keep your buying decision based on price.  The manufacturer may want to defer the support and repair of a digital back through the dealer system, but they are ultimately responsible for any fix and the web makes it easy to find the e-mail and contact information for all the db maker's management, so if you have a problem you can get a response and if you have a hardware problem, the dealer doesn't fix it, the maker does, so buy on price.

Now that this forum has representation from every manufacturer you can get most support questions answered here.

Big Cooter

Setting the cat out among the pigeons, I did exactly that in 2005 when I went shopping for my first MFDB, what I now call the Motha F**king Dastardly Bastard   I found out that all dealers have certain territorial privileges and also restrictions outside which they are not allowed to sell. For example, if you're from New York, a dealer from Los Angeles should not be able to sell you a back if you have a dealer in your city. So, almost all said to me, see your local dealer although some were quite willing to deal at the risk of losing their dealerships. I figured these dealers were trying to make whatever money they could to cover the cost of the demo back and then content themselves with selling Canon and Nikon henceforth.

I also got a few quotes from dealers outside of the USA. Some were not allowed to sell outside of their territories and told me so outright but some said sure, it mattered not a whit what the colour of your bills were, money is money. To cut to the chase, when I sat down to compare quotes finally, I found a $5500.00 differential for exactly the same product, with freebies like a HP Ipaq and CF cards to boot, offered by the non-American dealer ($22500 vs. $27995.00). At the same time, I also found out that the American distributor of that back offered the same back as a special student deal to photography students at a very slightly higher price than was offered to me. Putting two and two together, I figured out that the same product was being marked up by a further $5500.00 by the American distributor.

Caveat, the warranty only holds in the territory from which it is being sold. As an aside, in the 1990s, there were certain makes of cameras and lenses which were marked up 40% over what you would pay for them in countries outside the good old USA. Those who have been around long enough know what I am talking about. In fact, Robert White of the UK did a roaring trade selling these cameras and lenses to American customers. Don't blame it on a weak greenback. Taking the prevailing foreign exchange rate and converting them directly, there was still the 40% mark up clear as daylight. Consider that the non-American dealers also have their own profit margins built in. We are talking about quite a margin.

That was in 2005. Perhaps suggested retail prices have equalised across the globe. However, every market has its own cost of doing business, sales tax structure and price of greatest resistance above which products will not sell.

Now, I have friends who are dealers. They have overheads, they have to make a profit to stay in business. I understand that. I do not expect them to sell at their cost. But it is insulting to my intelligence when someone comes along and says that the margins are not high and yet not reveal numbers because what is not high to that someone may well be high to another. It is a value judgment best made by the person himself. Don't pretend to make the judgment call for me and then leave it at that.

In this arena, MFDB makers compete amongst themselves for shelf space. Give an insufficient margin and the dealer won't carry your product because it is simply not worth his time UNLESS you are a market leading product. And these companies know how they stack up against the competition. Margins are the same across the board UNLESS you're that 800-pound gorilla. And you know whether you are.

This is what I learnt about this industry in 2005: large national distributors get 50 percentage points on a product. The smaller national distributors may get about 45 percentage points and more if they meet a certain sales target. Dealers get on average 33.33 points, ranging from 25 points for very small dealers to 40 points for large proactive dealers. On top of that, in the USA for example, the American distributor even marks them up higher because this is 'what the market can bear' with the unfortunate situation that you can oftentimes find the same product selling outside of the USA at below the American dealer's cost! Some companies set up their own distributorships in large markets like the USA because they get to keep the distributor margin then and are free to set prices as much as the market can bear.

The distributor is the direct customer of the manufacturer. The dealer is the direct customer of the distributor. And you, the photographer, are the direct customer of the dealer. The manufacturer does not sell to the photographer. It sells to the distributor who commits to a certain number of backs a year. This is what keeps the factory in production and this is why the manufacturer will not sell directly to the end user except in circumstances where there isn't a distributor or dealer. It simply cannot sit and wait for orders to come in one by one. A manufacturer gets a commitment from its worldwide distributors on certain sizes of order based on the projected market size (on a quarterly basis, for example, dependent on their terms with each other). The distributors pay up, the factory goes into production for that quarter. The sale is done and so on. And it is up to the distributor to sell his backs to his dealers. Of course, they (manufacturer, distributor and dealer) all agree to share on Advertising and Promotion.

You can work out these margins for yourself if you look at the number of backs sold a year, the revenue of the company and its annual profits. Hey, these are slow moving items and I think that they are entitled to their margins. I have attended trade shows of electronic products such as the Las Vegas CES as a member of the trade, which could be classified in the same category. These margins are pretty much par for course for this category of goods.

I leave all these as food for thought.

Flame retardant suit on.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 01:06:01 PM by Sean Reginald Knight » Logged
Palmbeater
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« Reply #113 on: October 16, 2008, 10:15:22 AM »
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Quote from: lance_schad
Welcome back Steve. I am sure that you will be able to contribute even more information now. Everyone missed you on the forum.
Lance

Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Direct: 305-534-5701 x1 | Cell: 305-394-3196
Capture Integration

What is a Lance Shad?
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« Reply #114 on: October 16, 2008, 10:32:36 AM »
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Steve,

Welcome back.....

It is clear that you made the right jump, career wise. There is also absolutley no doubt that Phase One produces the finest MF digital back on the market. Nothing else comes even close. You are in good hands and I am sure that everyone here appreciates your input.

There is so much inane information that is passed by participants who have never used a MFDB, never shot professionally and amount to nothing more than unbridled academics.

So keep you head up, remain sharp and spread the truth.

PB
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