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Author Topic: David Grover / Hasselblad A/s  (Read 21001 times)
gwhitf
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« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2008, 08:46:15 AM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
By making this modification though you will lose automatic sending of the ISO from the film back (should you use one) to the light meter.

David,

Thank you for the very thorough answer, even though that was not the answer I was looking for.

I'm plenty willing to not have the ASA send; if I don't know what ASA I'm shooting at, I've got a lot more larger problems...

I would respectfully suggest that Hasselblad (and other companies) not forget about the THOUSANDS of still-operable film bodies and lenses, that are presently sitting on a dusty shelf somewhere,ie Fuji 680; Hasselblad V, Hasselblad 200; Mamiya RZ. I know your business schools teach you to sell only NEW equipment, but in the big picture, wouldn't it be better for the Hasselblad brand to have guys walking around shooting 200 and 500 series Hasselblads with workable digital backs, rather than simply throwing in the towel and migrating to Canon or Nikon? I know your quick answer would be that they're migrating to H system, but if you think that's the case, you ought to check your numbers. It might say H on the (grey) body, but that's about the only similarity.

Keep Hope Alive. Assign someone to design for vintage bodies. There are thousands of guys out there who'll never write the check for a complete new H system, but they WOULD buy a back, (even an expensive back), if they knew that all their (paid for) bodies and existing lenses would work on it.

Just a thought. Thanks for the thorough answer. Very refreshing.
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« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2008, 09:11:45 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
David,

Thank you for the very thorough answer, even though that was not the answer I was looking for.

I'm plenty willing to not have the ASA send; if I don't know what ASA I'm shooting at, I've got a lot more larger problems...

I would respectfully suggest that Hasselblad (and other companies) not forget about the THOUSANDS of still-operable film bodies and lenses, that are presently sitting on a dusty shelf somewhere,ie Fuji 680; Hasselblad V, Hasselblad 200; Mamiya RZ. I know your business schools teach you to sell only NEW equipment, but in the big picture, wouldn't it be better for the Hasselblad brand to have guys walking around shooting 200 and 500 series Hasselblads with workable digital backs, rather than simply throwing in the towel and migrating to Canon or Nikon? I know your quick answer would be that they're migrating to H system, but if you think that's the case, you ought to check your numbers. It might say H on the (grey) body, but that's about the only similarity.

Keep Hope Alive. Assign someone to design for vintage bodies. There are thousands of guys out there who'll never write the check for a complete new H system, but they WOULD buy a back, (even an expensive back), if they knew that all their (paid for) bodies and existing lenses would work on it.

Just a thought. Thanks for the thorough answer. Very refreshing.


Ummm we haven't!  The CF back works on all the camera's you mention, bar the 200 series for reasons already discussed.  The CF back is based on an adapter system meaning that you can use the same CF back on a variety of bodies just by changing the adapter.  This is a procedure done by the customer and takes a couple of minutes.

Take a look here...

http://www.hasselblad.com/products/backs/cf-and-cf-ms.aspx

(Cameras supported are - Hasselblad H system and V system, Rollei 600X and AF, Contax 645AF, Mamiya 645 Pro, 645 AFD, RB
and RZ67, Fuji GX680I/II/II. All view cameras via Hasselblad adapter. Horseman DigiFlex II)

So, I will be pleased to take your order.  

David
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 09:14:26 AM by David Grover / Hasselblad » Logged

David Grover
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Dustbak
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« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2008, 09:58:54 AM »
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Euh... mine has been placed over 6 weeks ago

While you are talking CF backs. Are there any developments planned for it to go (almost) full 645 60MP or 50MP?  I already have 2 so I probably will not add very soon but it would be a nice signal to know Hasselblad is really continuing development for the CF platform.

Several things do pop in my mind I would like to have improved on my CF backs.

One question just pops in my mind. Does the CFII have the passive cooling (thought not) and the new & improved IR filter (thought it did)?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 10:06:18 AM by Dustbak » Logged
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« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2008, 10:14:34 AM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
1)  There is no black paint in Sweden.  This is the issue.  ;-)
David

Welcome, David. Your involvement here is very much appreciated.
Now, as for the color scheme of the H Series, I am sure that there are some who like it. (I know both of them well.) I have suspected, without knowing the facts, that Hasselblad is precluded contractually by Fuji from selling a black version of the H in the non-Japanese markets. If that is not the case, why not offer at least offer a "Special Anniversary Issue" of the H3D in black(even if it's not really any particular anniversary of anything)? Hasselblad would probably make a killing on it. Try it.
Another question. Why are the Hasselblad digital files not supported by Adobe in ACR and Lightroom? I asked that question of an Adobe representative and it seemed to put one of the guys who apparently works with Adobe in a nasty mood, and he strongly implied that it was Hasselblad's "fault", as if Hasselblad had some sort of agenda in NOT allowing for native support of Hasselblad Raw files.
Regards.
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gss
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« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2008, 10:19:00 AM »
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Hi David.

Quote from: gss
1) With regards to the V system, do you have plans to develop new backs for it, or do you consider it a dead end?
Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
1)  The V system is still in production so of course still a viable business for us.  We still manufacture our CF range of digital backs which have always been compatible with the V system.  So if you want a 39MP for your V system, then we can supply it.
Do you plan to develop new backs.  The CF range has a teeny little lcd; it is still 39 MP.  The H series, on the contrary, is progressing.  I am now fully committed to the H series, but am still worried that the beautiful V series might go away.

Quote from: gss
2) Are there any plans to develop a back which will work on a 205 FCC without cables, with FE lenses, and which will have greater than 16MP?
Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
2)  I don't foresee this as a possibility due to the lack of enquiries for a product like this.  The majority of our sales are now H3D and increasing, so I think for any business this is where the R&D will go.
I do hope people will start to make inquiries, then.  I really liked mine, still use it with film, and would hate to see it end up in a tar pit.

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gwhitf
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« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2008, 10:52:59 AM »
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Quote from: gss
Do you plan to develop new backs.  The CF range has a teeny little lcd; it is still 39 MP.  The H series, on the contrary, is progressing.  I am now fully committed to the H series, but am still worried that the beautiful V series might go away.

That's sorta what I was implying. I looked at that CFV back at Kurland once, and it seemed so out of date that it's not worth considering.

I also wondered, in terms of getting a back to cover the full 6x6 of a REAL hasselblad, if this tilt shift device has some kind of magnifying or reducing "lens", to be able to get to infinity, could that approach or theory not be applied toward getting a back to cover the full 6x6 centimeters? Obviously, Im a photographer and not a technician, but I still can dream.

But to use that "lens" to zoom the image larger somehow?

And I wonder the same thing about a new V Series Viewfinder -- when I looked thru that CFV waist level finder on the v series, the hot area was a tiny square in the dead center of the waist level finder. Why not devise a magnifying waist level finder, so that you' see the Hot Area, in a sense, full frame? Didn't you do some trickery like that for the H?

Yes, the H is sexy in David Grover's eyes, but sexy to a lot of photographers looks like "ALREADY PAID FOR" and on the shelf.

Dont miss a potential market. The 200 and the V have soul; the H, well, steel or plastic, it's just another electronic device. Victor Hasselblad died early, so he didn't have to witness his name on that H camera.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 11:01:16 AM by gwhitf » Logged
David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2008, 11:53:12 AM »
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Quote from: hcubell
Welcome, David. Your involvement here is very much appreciated.
Now, as for the color scheme of the H Series, I am sure that there are some who like it. (I know both of them well.) I have suspected, without knowing the facts, that Hasselblad is precluded contractually by Fuji from selling a black version of the H in the non-Japanese markets. If that is not the case, why not offer at least offer a "Special Anniversary Issue" of the H3D in black(even if it's not really any particular anniversary of anything)? Hasselblad would probably make a killing on it. Try it.
Another question. Why are the Hasselblad digital files not supported by Adobe in ACR and Lightroom? I asked that question of an Adobe representative and it seemed to put one of the guys who apparently works with Adobe in a nasty mood, and he strongly implied that it was Hasselblad's "fault", as if Hasselblad had some sort of agenda in NOT allowing for native support of Hasselblad Raw files.
Regards.

Thanks Howard!

I guess you can say Adobe and Apple are always not the best of friends.  With Aperture the compatibility is a little easier as OSX natively supports 3F files, hence Aperture will automatically do so as well.

So to Adobe they rely on their own tools (ie Not Core Image) so compatibility is a little tougher.  I don't believe it is anyones fault and I know for a fact we are talking with Adobe about this.  Working with these large companies can often not be a speedy process so I am afraid we have to be patient.

In terms of outright image quality Light Room, Aperture and ACR are very poor cousins when processing out our raw files.  If you make a comparison with Phocus and any of the above you will see we render a far more pleasing result - not forgetting the lens corrections either.

David
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David Grover
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2008, 11:55:03 AM »
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Quote from: Dustbak
Euh... mine has been placed over 6 weeks ago

While you are talking CF backs. Are there any developments planned for it to go (almost) full 645 60MP or 50MP?  I already have 2 so I probably will not add very soon but it would be a nice signal to know Hasselblad is really continuing development for the CF platform.

Several things do pop in my mind I would like to have improved on my CF backs.

One question just pops in my mind. Does the CFII have the passive cooling (thought not) and the new & improved IR filter (thought it did)?

There are certainly still future plans for the CF range, but no decision either way yet.

CFII has a larger LCD screen (2.5") and the new IR filter but retains the fan based cooling.

David
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David Grover
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2008, 11:57:47 AM »
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Quote from: gss
Hi David.



Do you plan to develop new backs.  The CF range has a teeny little lcd; it is still 39 MP.  The H series, on the contrary, is progressing.  I am now fully committed to the H series, but am still worried that the beautiful V series might go away.



I do hope people will start to make inquiries, then.  I really liked mine, still use it with film, and would hate to see it end up in a tar pit.

The CFII now has a larger LCD at 2.5".  Not sure if that is the model you are referring to?  Yes it is still 39MP at this time.

What the market wants the market gets (excluding black H cameras of course) so it really depends on feedback from dealers and what their needs are.


David
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David Grover
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2008, 12:06:42 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
That's sorta what I was implying. I looked at that CFV back at Kurland once, and it seemed so out of date that it's not worth considering.

I also wondered, in terms of getting a back to cover the full 6x6 of a REAL hasselblad, if this tilt shift device has some kind of magnifying or reducing "lens", to be able to get to infinity, could that approach or theory not be applied toward getting a back to cover the full 6x6 centimeters? Obviously, Im a photographer and not a technician, but I still can dream.

But to use that "lens" to zoom the image larger somehow?

And I wonder the same thing about a new V Series Viewfinder -- when I looked thru that CFV waist level finder on the v series, the hot area was a tiny square in the dead center of the waist level finder. Why not devise a magnifying waist level finder, so that you' see the Hot Area, in a sense, full frame? Didn't you do some trickery like that for the H?

Yes, the H is sexy in David Grover's eyes, but sexy to a lot of photographers looks like "ALREADY PAID FOR" and on the shelf.

Dont miss a potential market. The 200 and the V have soul; the H, well, steel or plastic, it's just another electronic device. Victor Hasselblad died early, so he didn't have to witness his name on that H camera.


Mmmmm... not sure I would describe it as out of date.  Perhaps work with it a little and see what you think?  It also has the larger 2.5" LCD now.  Firewire 800 is not exactly out of date either!

The HTS (tilt shift device) does increase the image circle of the lens.  However, if the CCD is a set size, no amount of optics will change that.

I seem to think there was a 4x4 magnifier for the WL finder as an accessory.  Ill have to look into that.  Pretty sure there was though.

Please reconsider the H, yes it is electronic but without that we couldn't deliver photographer tools like the HTS.  Tilt and Shift movements were taking for granted when we were all using 4x5 Sinar cameras.  Much of that was lost when many photographers moved over to medium format digital and this is a way of bringing that back in a convenient package.  Including evil electronics into the system only enhances the quality and that is what we are all about, right?

Victor Hasselblad I am sure would have been fascinated by the progression in technology and would have enjoyed contributing himself.  The V system alone would not be enough to support Hasselblad in the future... and I for one like my job.  :-)

David.
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David Grover
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« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2008, 12:07:35 PM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Thanks Howard!

I guess you can say Adobe and Apple are always not the best of friends.  With Aperture the compatibility is a little easier as OSX natively supports 3F files, hence Aperture will automatically do so as well.

So to Adobe they rely on their own tools (ie Not Core Image) so compatibility is a little tougher.  I don't believe it is anyones fault and I know for a fact we are talking with Adobe about this.  Working with these large companies can often not be a speedy process so I am afraid we have to be patient.

In terms of outright image quality Light Room, Aperture and ACR are very poor cousins when processing out our raw files.  If you make a comparison with Phocus and any of the above you will see we render a far more pleasing result - not forgetting the lens corrections either.

David
David,

Further to this issue concerning 3FR, DAC and Adobe, would your DAC algorithms be revealed to Adobe in the event Adobe begins to process 3FR files? Or is this a proprietary and confidential part of the 3FR that Hasselblad will hold close to the vest?

When you state that Mac’s OSX supports 3FR natively, does that include or not include DAC?

Kind regards,
Derek
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2008, 12:16:22 PM »
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Quote from: jecxz
David,

Further to this issue concerning 3FR, DAC and Adobe, would your DAC algorithms be revealed to Adobe in the event Adobe begins to process 3FR files? Or is this a proprietary and confidential part of the 3FR that Hasselblad will hold close to the vest?

When you state that Mac’s OSX supports 3FR natively, does that include or not include DAC?

Kind regards,
Derek

Hi Derek,

Its not just the algorithms I guess.  Right now there are more than 50,000 lens maps in Phocus needed to perform the lens corrections.  Yes I assume it would mean turning over that kind of information to a third party.  Also would the third party be willing to build a tool into their software to allow the application of the lens corrections?

I actually don't know the answer to that question so I am just speculating.  But something as complex (and effective) as DAC needs careful thought on the commercial side of things.  I don't disagree it would be a bad idea at all, but I would say there is more to consider than 'just do it'.

Also by handing over that kind of data we do lose control of how frequently the maps / corrections could be updated.  With Phocus we can simply release a new version as we see fit.

But, it is a necessary discussion... which is ongoing.    


David

PS In answer to your final question.  The 3FR file does not contain the DAC corrections when brought into Aperture for example.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 12:17:31 PM by David Grover / Hasselblad » Logged

David Grover
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jecxz
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« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2008, 12:45:40 PM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Hi Derek,

Its not just the algorithms I guess.  Right now there are more than 50,000 lens maps in Phocus needed to perform the lens corrections.  Yes I assume it would mean turning over that kind of information to a third party.  Also would the third party be willing to build a tool into their software to allow the application of the lens corrections?

I actually don't know the answer to that question so I am just speculating.  But something as complex (and effective) as DAC needs careful thought on the commercial side of things.  I don't disagree it would be a bad idea at all, but I would say there is more to consider than 'just do it'.

Also by handing over that kind of data we do lose control of how frequently the maps / corrections could be updated.  With Phocus we can simply release a new version as we see fit.

But, it is a necessary discussion... which is ongoing.    


David

PS In answer to your final question.  The 3FR file does not contain the DAC corrections when brought into Aperture for example.
David,

Thank you. I don't necessarily think Hasselblad should release this proprietary information without licensing it or without strict controls, if you decide to release it at all.

FYI: Phocus PC looks fantasic - very excited for it's final release!

One more question: are you getting any of your regular work done or are you busy all day responding to the posts in this forum?  Be well.

Kind regards,
Derek
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 01:59:38 PM by jecxz » Logged

design_freak
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« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2008, 12:46:37 PM »
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Hi David :-)
Nice to see you here.

Freak

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DF

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« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2008, 02:00:11 PM »
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David,
I happen to be one of those retro guys who still own an H1 and use it with P45 and A75. Does your tilt-shift adapter work
on cameras other than H3's? If so, what are the functional restrictions? no lens correction clearly, but otherwise?
Thanks in advance, Peter
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carstenw
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« Reply #75 on: October 14, 2008, 03:19:33 PM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
It is an issue of synchronizing the CCD with the focal plane shutter exposure.  Essentially the digital back does not know the correct time to flush the CCD.  The flash sync output is no good as it gives the first signal when the shutter curtain has fully passed over the image plane.  On higher shutter speeds the second curtain will be already traveling across the CCD.  Therefore you will end up with some image cut off... Like you would experience in using the wrong flash sync speed.

Out of curiousity, if the back somehow knew when the exposure was done, would it be able to use all shutter times? Would the flash sync speed be affected?
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« Reply #76 on: October 14, 2008, 03:26:53 PM »
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Quote from: markowich
David,
I happen to be one of those retro guys who still own an H1 and use it with P45 and A75. Does your tilt-shift adapter work
on cameras other than H3's? If so, what are the functional restrictions? no lens correction clearly, but otherwise?
Thanks in advance, Peter

I'll chime in since David is probably exhausted already.

The HTS will work on any H Camera but as you say the DAC (lens) corrections will only work on an H3D, you might want to get someone to demo the corrections so you can see wether you'll miss them.
Otherwise the HTS will function the same.

Nick-T
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« Reply #77 on: October 14, 2008, 03:50:45 PM »
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Quote from: Nick-T
I'll chime in since David is probably exhausted already.

The HTS will work on any H Camera but as you say the DAC (lens) corrections will only work on an H3D, you might want to get someone to demo the corrections so you can see wether you'll miss them.
Otherwise the HTS will function the same.

Nick-T


thanks nick. will try it out for sure.
peter
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« Reply #78 on: October 14, 2008, 04:06:12 PM »
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Quote from: Nick-T
I'll chime in since David is probably exhausted already.

The HTS will work on any H Camera but as you say the DAC (lens) corrections will only work on an H3D, you might want to get someone to demo the corrections so you can see wether you'll miss them.
Otherwise the HTS will function the same.

Nick-T

Hello Nick:
I had a couple of questions about the HTS. First, the only lenses that seem to be "officially" supported are the 28, 35 and 80. However, I believe I read that the 50, 100, 150 and 210 will also work with the HTS. What was Hasselblad saying at Photokina about "recommended" lenses.
Second, the HTS has a 1.5 multiplier effect. How do you calculate the effective FOV of a lens with the HTS expressed in terms of a lens used with a 35mm film camera? If the 28mm HC lens used with an H3D has the same FOV as a 20mm lens on a Canon 35mm, I would have thought that the 28mm HC on the HTS would look like a 30mm lens on the Canon yet I believe I read that the 28mm HC on the HTS has the FOV of a 41mm lens on the Canon.
Thanks.
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« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2008, 04:21:58 PM »
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Quote from: hcubell
Hello Nick:
I had a couple of questions about the HTS. First, the only lenses that seem to be "officially" supported are the 28, 35 and 80. However, I believe I read that the 50, 100, 150 and 210 will also work with the HTS. What was Hasselblad saying at Photokina about "recommended" lenses.

 The lenses supported are: 28 (H3D only) 35, 50, 80, 100 plus any combo of extension tubes.

Quote
Second, the HTS has a 1.5 multiplier effect. How do you calculate the effective FOV of a lens with the HTS expressed in terms of a lens used with a 35mm film camera? If the 28mm HC lens used with an H3D has the same FOV as a 20mm lens on a Canon 35mm, I would have thought that the 28mm HC on the HTS would look like a 30mm lens on the Canon yet I believe I read that the 28mm HC on the HTS has the FOV of a 41mm lens on the Canon.
Thanks.
The 28mm becomes a 42mm, this is equivalent to about a 28mm on a full-frame 35mm system.

FYI at the show I did a quick test comparing the 28mm alone with the 28mm on the HTS shifted and stitched. The 28mm and HTS when shifted (2 frames) gave about 20% more width than the 28mm alone if that makes sense.

Nick-T
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