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Author Topic: New Apple 24" LED Cinema Display  (Read 11079 times)
Gellman
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« on: October 15, 2008, 02:38:29 AM »
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Apple just announced a new 24 inch LED Cinema Display to go with the new MacBook and MacBook Pro laptops. Apparently it is only available with a glossy screen finish. Are there any Apple fanatics out there who have any idea how the display quality compares with NEC or Lacie displays? How good is it for color calibrated photo work? I guess they can be seen at most Apple stores, if not immediately, then very soon.

BTW, anyone had a chance to try out a new MacBook Pro yet? Am wondering how much faster for Photoshop compared to the older models.

John
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mistybreeze
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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2008, 05:53:55 AM »
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It seems to me that Apple is trying very much to appeal to average customers attracted to slick and flash. I hope the marketing concept makes them lots of money. I think the glossy screens are awful for professional photographers. Images are too contrasty, the shadow detail is impossible to find, and the glare is infuriating. I feel sorry for those people who believe this type of presentation offers quality, artful viewing. Maybe if high contrast and sheets of shiny glass is your statement. I hear babies and young children respond well to high contrast visuals. You can always dangle one over a crib.

Every expert tells me the glossy screens are impossible to calibrate. Geniuses at the Apple Store in NYC will say the same thing (if they sense you're a professional).

I expect people with less discerning taste will love the sleek appeal of high gloss. I can't imagine serious art photographers will be happy if gloss is their only choice.
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Gellman
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« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2008, 04:44:54 PM »
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It seems the new LED 24 inch display will not be shipping until November, so we'll just have to wait and see. I was told by an Apple rep that it's glossy only. Too bad. That sounds like a deal killer. But the new MacBook Pro looks pretty good from the published specs. It would have been nice to be able to use it right away with one of the new displays, but I've heard of nothing but problems from those who have tried to calibrate glossy displays. I guess the computer companies are just like camera and printer companies. It's always something! Maybe one day someone will come out with a computer system or a camera system that doesn't have anything wrong with it. I'm not holding my breath.
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GregW
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« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2008, 05:03:30 PM »
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Quote from: ncjohnboy
It seems the new LED 24 inch display will not be shipping until November, so we'll just have to wait and see. I was told by an Apple rep that it's glossy only. Too bad. That sounds like a deal killer. But the new MacBook Pro looks pretty good from the published specs. It would have been nice to be able to use it right away with one of the new displays, but I've heard of nothing but problems from those who have tried to calibrate glossy displays. I guess the computer companies are just like camera and printer companies. It's always something! Maybe one day someone will come out with a computer system or a camera system that doesn't have anything wrong with it. I'm not holding my breath.

Calibrating my wife's 24" iMac was a PITA, but not impossible. I was not looking forward to doing the same with my MBA (LED panel), but much to my suprise it calibrated beautifully first time. Glare is so well controlled when the display is on it's not an issue.

I hope this desktop LED display proves to be good. It can be a real pain having to wait 30 minutes for an LCD to warm up. With an LED you can get straight to work. The question is how good or bad will it be?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 05:05:30 PM by GregW » Logged
The View
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« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2008, 05:18:16 PM »
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The price of 900$ and the iMac design gives the idea it is a mass market product just like the new, glossy iMac line.

Until now, cinema displays were much better than iMac displays.

In a worst case scenario, the screen would be the same as the iMac screen. When you go to apple's website, it's marketed as the external screen for notebook users.

Disappointing.
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2008, 06:06:41 PM »
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The new Apple Cinema Display and MacBooks complete Apple’s all-glass, glossy screen approach and signals the end of the matte surface, glare resistant displays that creative professionals have come to know and love over the years.

When asked about the choice to move to all-glossy displays Phil Schiller responded “You offset the reflection by the brightness, and consumers love it” at today’s announcement event. I find this comment disappointing and it shows a disconnect with creative professionals. Consumers *do* love bright, glossy screens. Creative professionals, however, don’t like *either* extreme brightness or glare. When calibrating a display, creative professionals typically turn the brightness down to the 90-150 cd/m2 luminance range and choose a warmer color temperature for paper white matching. In order to achieve this critical, display to paper white matching one can’t “offset the reflection by the brightness” as Phil suggests.

I travel through several photography and design studios every week and the comment I regularly hear about the new iMacs is “I love the machine except for the terrible, glossy display.” In the same fashion, the new laptops and cinema displays will force creative professionals to struggle with glare, excess contrast and the perception of extreme shadow detail. I’ll probably recommend that creative professionals consider non-glossy displays from NEC, EIZO, Samsung and (gasp!) maybe even Dell (for value).

The new laptops don’t offer a significant CPU speed increase and future models aren’t expected to have the same increases that we have seen in the past. Graphics Processing Unit (GPU) speeds are likely to increase substantially and it’s in this area that the new laptops are much faster. Some applications have already been updated to take advantage of the GPU acceleration trend. Apple’s Aperture, Final Cut products and Adobe’s Photoshop CS4 all utilize the GPU for greater performance. Photographers, however, are relying less on Photoshop and more on Lightroom which unfortunately doesn’t offer GPU acceleration. Because Lightroom has become “command central” for most professional photographers the new laptops won’t offer the significant performance boast they were hoping for.

I think todays products leave creative professionals with the following questions:
“When will Adobe update Lightroom, Distiller and InDesign to utilize GPUs for greater performance?”
“What is a ‘best value’ non glare display that I can rely on instead of Apple’s new ACDs?”
“Will Apple listen to professionals and consider offering non glare versions of their displays?”
“Will a 3rd party consider offering a film product that transforms a glossy display into a non glossy one?”
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NigelC
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2008, 03:35:28 AM »
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Quote from: ncjohnboy
Apple just announced a new 24 inch LED Cinema Display to go with the new MacBook and MacBook Pro laptops. Apparently it is only available with a glossy screen finish. Are there any Apple fanatics out there who have any idea how the display quality compares with NEC or Lacie displays? How good is it for color calibrated photo work? I guess they can be seen at most Apple stores, if not immediately, then very soon.

BTW, anyone had a chance to try out a new MacBook Pro yet? Am wondering how much faster for Photoshop compared to the older models.

John

What concerns me is that the new MacBook Pro now needs a mini Port to DVI adaptor to drive an "old" Apple Cinema Display (23" in my case). Will this degrade quality?
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2008, 04:10:24 AM »
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Quote from: NigelC
What concerns me is that the new MacBook Pro now needs a mini Port to DVI adaptor to drive an "old" Apple Cinema Display (23" in my case). Will this degrade quality?

I wouldn't think so ... they are both digital.

The new DisplayPort technology appears to be very good.  It's not an Apple invention, but an open standard.  Supplies a full video signal that can drive a 30" display, as well as sound.  Hopefully other PC makers begin moving to it, as well as video card makers.
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mistybreeze
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« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2008, 08:53:55 AM »
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When asked about the choice to move to all-glossy displays Phil Schiller responded “You offset the reflection by the brightness, and consumers love it”

"Consumers" indicate market trend and market trend indicates more money. Clearly Apple is thinking about cutting edge "excitable" appearance which they're hoping will produce market dollars. They're not thinking about professional photographers who may or may not use their laptops in the field. (I assume very few professionals use their laptop as their main workstation.)

If Apple Cinema Displays go all gloss, the trend for creative professionals will continue to see growth in sales for NEC, Sony, and Eizo monitors, which have far exceeded Apple in providing state-of-the-art monitors at an affordable price with longer and more affordable warranties. Monitors are such an important tool for creative professionals they almost don't care what the equipment looks like but they will always care about the quality of the image displayed.

As for "offset the reflection by the brightness," that's bullshit.

The newest Apple Store in the trendy Meatpacking District of Manhattan is all windows, floor to ceiling windows, with the streetscape in full view from the interior of the store. During a recent visit, salespeople continually diverted customers away from the glossy screen displays which faced the street because it was IMPOSSIBLE to control the glare on those screens. Who's kidding who here?

Maybe NEC will co-opt a deal with Apple and produce a new line of laptops for creative professionals. I won't hold my breath.
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Phil Corley
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« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2008, 09:10:39 AM »
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I managed to calibrate my 24" Glossy iMac screen no problems (when you know how to do it). As long as you can manage the reflections, using the screen is fine for photo work

Phil

Quote from: ncjohnboy
It seems the new LED 24 inch display will not be shipping until November, so we'll just have to wait and see. I was told by an Apple rep that it's glossy only. Too bad. That sounds like a deal killer. But the new MacBook Pro looks pretty good from the published specs. It would have been nice to be able to use it right away with one of the new displays, but I've heard of nothing but problems from those who have tried to calibrate glossy displays. I guess the computer companies are just like camera and printer companies. It's always something! Maybe one day someone will come out with a computer system or a camera system that doesn't have anything wrong with it. I'm not holding my breath.
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The View
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« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2008, 06:24:45 PM »
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Maybe this is just an additional model for laptops.

And the serious, pro quality cinema displays show up later.
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santa
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« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2008, 05:14:00 AM »
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Quote from: The View
Maybe this is just an additional model for laptops.

And the serious, pro quality cinema displays show up later.


yeah right. doubt it...but it won't matter. A high quality NEC or my favorite that I'm staring at now, an Eizo will be heads above the Apple display regardless. Just an opinion. Apple Displays have always looked good, but nothing after their Trinitron CRT's were top of the line compared to other vendors out there. check the warranty and specs of the better NEC and Eizo.
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Pelao
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« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2008, 06:11:18 AM »
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Quote from: The View
Maybe this is just an additional model for laptops.

And the serious, pro quality cinema displays show up later.

Apple's 20, 23 and 30" displays are still available.


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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2008, 04:16:37 PM »
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Quote from: Phil Corley
I managed to calibrate my 24" Glossy iMac screen no problems (when you know how to do it). As long as you can manage the reflections, using the screen is fine for photo work

Phil

I also have had no problem calibrating and using a 24" iMac.  Reflections aren't really difficult to manage ... not much different than managing the glare that a matte screen turns that reflection into.
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The View
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« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2008, 09:47:57 PM »
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Quote from: santa
yeah right. doubt it...but it won't matter. A high quality NEC or my favorite that I'm staring at now, an Eizo will be heads above the Apple display regardless. Just an opinion. Apple Displays have always looked good, but nothing after their Trinitron CRT's were top of the line compared to other vendors out there. check the warranty and specs of the better NEC and Eizo.

I have been thinking of an Eizo ColorEdge for a while and just recently discovered NEC.

So, if Apple doesn't deliver a good display, I'll go Eizo or NEC.

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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2008, 10:50:45 AM »
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Quote from: Wayne Fox
I wouldn't think so ... they are both digital.

The new DisplayPort technology appears to be very good.  It's not an Apple invention, but an open standard.  Supplies a full video signal that can drive a 30" display, as well as sound.  Hopefully other PC makers begin moving to it, as well as video card makers.

I have it on good authority that the new mini-Display port is not a mini-DVI and is not compatible with or adaptable to conventional or mini DVI ports.  Admittedly this seems odd given the current state of digital advances, so can somebody confirm or deny for certain that mini-Display can/cannot be adapted to DVI/mini-DVI?

Note that on the Apple site, it pretty specifically states the 24" LED is only compatible with MacBooks:

"System Requirements

MacBook, MacBook Air, or MacBook Pro with Mini DisplayPort"



Thanks,
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 04:59:16 PM by Jack Flesher » Logged

Wayne Fox
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« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2008, 01:00:25 PM »
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Quote from: Jack Flesher
I have it on good authority that the new mini-Display port is not a mini-DVI and is not compatible with or adaptable to conventional or mini DVI ports.  Admittedly this seems odd given the current state of digital advances, so can somebody confirm or deny for certain that mini-Display can/cannot be adapted to DVI/mini-DVI?

Note that on the Apple site, it pretty specifically states the 24" LED is only compatible with MacBooks:

"System Requirements

MacBook, MacBook Air, or MacBook Pro with Mini DisplayPort"



Thanks,

I've been curious about this as well.

All I can find is that you can adapt the output of the new MacBooks to DVI and VGA, but nothing that allows the new 24" monitor to be adapted to a DVI MacBook.

Of course, the new monitor is still a month or so from shipping.  I'm not an expert but it doesn't seem logical that you can't adapt it both ways.
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GregW
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« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2008, 09:09:34 AM »
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I'm not an expert but from what I have read it's not possible to drive a DisplayPort monitors with a DVI signal. There appear to be two principal reasons.

- the display doesn't have the signaling circuitry to accept the signal
- the signals are incompatible

Manufacturers like DisplayPort because:

- they can make cheaper displays as they don't need the signaling circuitry found in HDMI and DVI panels. Displays are driven directly from the graphics card.
- displays are thinner, making them more attractive to consumers
- no licensing costs , unlike HDMI

It's possible to drive a DVI display from DisplayPort because the graphics card manufacturers bridge the two technologies on the graphics chip. The DisplayPort-DVI adaptor is expensive because it's needs a signaling chip to read and decode the signals as well as make a physical connection.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 09:32:50 AM by GregW » Logged
Wayne Fox
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« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2008, 02:39:24 PM »
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Quote from: GregW
I'm not an expert but from what I have read it's not possible to drive a DisplayPort monitors with a DVI signal. There appear to be two principal reasons.

- the display doesn't have the signaling circuitry to accept the signal
- the signals are incompatible

Manufacturers like DisplayPort because:

- they can make cheaper displays as they don't need the signaling circuitry found in HDMI and DVI panels. Displays are driven directly from the graphics card.
- displays are thinner, making them more attractive to consumers
- no licensing costs , unlike HDMI

It's possible to drive a DVI display from DisplayPort because the graphics card manufacturers bridge the two technologies on the graphics chip. The DisplayPort-DVI adaptor is expensive because it's needs a signaling chip to read and decode the signals as well as make a physical connection.

So from this it sounds like the only way it might be possible to use a Displayport monitor with a DVI mac would be some type of digital convertor box (prob pricey so doesn't really make sense) ... and that might not even be possible.

As far as the DisplayPort-DVI adaptor, the standard one is only $29.00 from Apple - not really that expensive.  The DisplayPort-Dual -> Dual-Link DVI adaptor, I assume required to run the 30" cinema display is a little expensive ... $99.  I would assume the second one would drive smaller DVI displays as well.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 02:39:55 PM by Wayne Fox » Logged

GregW
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« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2008, 09:35:47 AM »
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Quote from: Wayne Fox
As far as the DisplayPort-DVI adaptor, the standard one is only $29.00 from Apple - not really that expensive.

It was a relative statement  i.e. display adapters can often be found in the USD 10 range, but your right. In itself USD 30 isn't a lot
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 09:36:26 AM by GregW » Logged
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