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Author Topic: Comparison of Epson 7900 versus HP Z3200  (Read 46058 times)
rdonson
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« Reply #120 on: November 18, 2008, 03:44:47 PM »
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Geez, Alan.  Enough is enough.  Please go ahead and buy the x900 Epson.  This has been interesting and informative but I think this thread has run its course.

Kudos to Jeff Schewe for patience and going the extra mile.
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« Reply #121 on: November 18, 2008, 03:49:10 PM »
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Well, in the Print Academy thread, your post on Nov 16 2008, 10:40 PM was then edited again "This post has been edited by alan a: Yesterday, 09:58 AM" so I have no idea what you said originally in that post, which is why I posted what I did  Nov 16 2008, 10:45 PM. If you HAD thanked me in the original post just before, do you think I would have posted that I didn't even know if you attended?

Personally, I don't trust people who go back into previously posted messages and change the content and context of their posts. That's like trying to re-write history. You've written what you've written, then gone back and changed what you've written. That's disingenuous at best...I judge people by what they say WHEN they say it, not afterwards...

As for my singling you out at the Print Academy, hey, I was trying to have fun...that's what I do, I wasn't being mean to you. I tried to explain why I had made prints the nite before on Luster. I can be mean if I want to, believe me, I wasn't being mean.

And again, to my way of thinking you still haven't atoned for the implications and allegations you've made in this and other threads (and then gone back and changed what you originally wrote–which ain't the same at all).

And...I could care less if you ate crow (or any sort other of fowl). The 7900 is a really good printer...it doesn't suffer from the same GD that HP's without glop do (nor the 600 series Epson printers), the spectro for the Epson is designed for the proofing market and photographers would be better served getting a whole color management package rather than the Epson spectro because by nature, the Epson printers don't need to resort to constant profiling that the HPs seem to. And, Epson's Exhibition Fine Art paper ain't a matte black printing paper...see, I answered all of your questions in 100 words or less.
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Doombrain
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« Reply #122 on: November 18, 2008, 03:49:59 PM »
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I hate to say it but the Pro7/9900 can still display GD, it's a fact of life this pigment inks and the inks in these units are still K3VM with O & G added.

edit: still a great printer though
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 03:52:03 PM by Doombrain » Logged
alan a
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« Reply #123 on: November 18, 2008, 04:09:06 PM »
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Quote from: rdonson
Geez, Alan.  Enough is enough.  Please go ahead and buy the x900 Epson.  This has been interesting and informative but I think this thread has run its course.

I agree.  I plan on buying the Epson as I already stated.  I did not raise the subject of the events at the Epson Print Academy, and have nothing more to say on that topic.  My summary of those events speaks for itself.

I won't add to this thread.  I leave to others to judge whether the information presented is useful or not.  Maybe not to you, but others have sent me PMs thanking me for the breakdown of the issues with both printers.  So some have found it to be useful.  But I have nothing more to add, in any event.

Quote from: Doombrain
I hate to say it but the Pro7/9900 can still display GD, it's a fact of life this pigment inks and the inks in these units are still K3VM with O & G added.

edit: still a great printer though
As I explained, I based my summary only on the three Epson papers.  Have you seen prints from the 7900/9900 on any other papers where GD continued to be an issue?
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Doombrain
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« Reply #124 on: November 18, 2008, 04:18:18 PM »
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Well, there's only two ways to completely get rid of GD on an aquarius pigment ink and that's with a lacquer or by setting the white point to something like 251.

There's no doubting now the level of GD on the Prox880/x900 is so low it doesn't warrant a costly GO channel. Another point for GO is for covering up for bronzing in B&W prints.

Has anyone ever tried printing a B&W on a Z3100 without GO?? It's a special effect
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William Morse
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« Reply #125 on: November 18, 2008, 04:34:10 PM »
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Yes, it is special....  

OTOH, the Z really is a great printer for B&W, whether on matte or PK papers

And to Jeff and Alan, please give it a rest! you both have really come out on the short end on this one, IMO.

Bill

Quote from: Doombrain
Well, there's only two ways to completely get rid of GD on an aquarius pigment ink and that's with a lacquer or by setting the white point to something like 251.

There's no doubting now the level of GD on the Prox880/x900 is so low it doesn't warrant a costly GO channel. Another point for GO is for covering up for bronzing in B&W prints.

Has anyone ever tried printing a B&W on a Z3100 without GO?? It's a special effect
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Schewe
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« Reply #126 on: November 18, 2008, 04:35:06 PM »
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Quote from: Doombrain
There's no doubting now the level of GD on the Prox880/x900 is so low it doesn't warrant a costly GO channel. Another point for GO is for covering up for bronzing in B&W prints.


I've not seen any bronzing on any Epson printers in the pro line since the introduction of the 800 series printers in either color or B&W. With the papers I use, GD is not an issue either since the 800 series and even less so with the 900 series.
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Doombrain
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« Reply #127 on: November 18, 2008, 04:39:33 PM »
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I agree. GD is not an issue on the x800 upwards and lets face it, If you print on RC media it should really be mounted behind glass.

I have seen VERY minor bronzing on all Epson's, I am talking VERY SLIGHT you really have to be looking for it.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 04:42:11 PM by Doombrain » Logged
Schewe
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« Reply #128 on: November 18, 2008, 05:04:43 PM »
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Quote from: William Morse
And to Jeff and Alan, please give it a rest! you both have really come out on the short end on this one, IMO.


Well Bill, you are entitled to YOUR opinion...but since this is your first post in this thread, I'm not sure how valid your opinion is unless you've read the entire thread–both the original posts by Alan and the edited version left here now. I only edit post for grammar and typos, never to content and context...too bad I didn't do a PDF of what Alan had said...hey, maybe it in Google cache...then you might understand my point of view in the issue.

:~)
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William Morse
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« Reply #129 on: November 18, 2008, 05:12:56 PM »
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FWIW, I agree with you completely on the editing.

And unfortunately, I have wasted entirely too much time reading this thread!  It's because I read so much from both of you that was unpleasant, that I was moved to post here. Wow!

Bill

Quote from: Schewe
Well Bill, you are entitled to YOUR opinion...but since this is your first post in this thread, I'm not sure how valid your opinion is unless you've read the entire thread–both the original posts by Alan and the edited version left here now. I only edit post for grammar and typos, never to content and context...too bad I didn't do a PDF of what Alan had said...hey, maybe it in Google cache...then you might understand my point of view in the issue.

:~)
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alan a
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« Reply #130 on: November 18, 2008, 05:58:03 PM »
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Quote from: William Morse
FWIW, I agree with you completely on the editing.
I promised to drop this, and probably should have stuck with that.  The issue of editing is a red herring IMHO.  I edited one post -- not in this thread, but the thread on the Epson Academy -- by simply deleting it, because I was wrong.  In that post I suggested that Jeff wouldn't bother to print anything on luster.  Schewe had said just that, and said it repeatedly, so my assumption was not misplaced.  Schewe had said he only prints on Exhibition Fiber, and would only do so, but we all know that this would not be a very useful test.  So I kept pressing him.  I had one chance, and only once chance, to judge the issue of GD on the 7900, and that was at the Print Academy.  (In the past no DC stores had large format printers on display.)  In the end, he did print on luster.  I thought the most gracious approach was to admit I was wrong, to apologize, to thank him for posting on luster, and to delete the post.  If I edited any posts in this thread, it was to add content, not to change any statements about Schewe.  Anyway, in the future I will not edit posts, since Jeff is making a big deal out of that.  

I am being criticized by Schewe for being gracious enough to apologize and delete a post that criticized him. Schewe protests a bit too much.  Go back and read my summary of his behavior at the Print Academy.  It was entirely inappropriate and an abuse of his position with Epson.  He dragged this debate, from this thread, into an Epson-sponsored public event, and did it at the very start of the event by trying to single out one person in the audience.  Nothing I have said or done can remotely match that.

And I was not the one that dragged that event into this thread.  Schewe did that.  Despite his actions at an Epson event, I tried very hard to post an honest summary of the issue of GD with the 7900.  And I thanked him for printing on luster; I was gracious about it -- and I did NOT raise the issue of Schewe's conduct at that event.  

If this thread took a bad turn in the last several pages, I was not the person who prompted it.  How hard would it have been for Schewe to quote my statement about eating crow and acknowledging that he was right all along, he could add a few smiles to his response,  again let us know that his intellectual superiority has again been demonstrated and proven, and thank me?  

Bill, as you noted, there is more than enough in this thread to get a good impression of who said what and when.  With or without any editing.  

I plead guilty for my own intemperate statements and contribution to this.  Enough said.
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alan a
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« Reply #131 on: November 18, 2008, 06:14:28 PM »
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I don't want to be accused of editing!  I probably wasn't clear above.  I think the issue is that I deleted one post, and that's what I tried to say above.  I did edit other posts, but did so to clarify and add to content, not to change the message.  In the above posting that reported on the Epson Print Academy, I added a disclaimer on the top that I edited and added content based on the 7900 user manual.  Ironically, I added that disclaimer even before this tempest in a teapot about editing.

I received four or five PM requests for a comprehensive summary on the 7900 based on the Print Academy.  I put in quite a time consuming effort to try to honor those requests.  

Those of you who asked me for that input -- it would be nice, at this point, if you'd post and thank me for the effort.  

Because all that is happening here is a pile of criticism and attacks for what I believe was a good assessment of a large number of issues regarding the two printers.  An assessment that some of you asked for.

Why bother, if this is the result?

I guess I can demontrate that with the reverse.  Those of you who are considering buying the 7900, and wanted a review of the issues.  Would it be a loss if I just went in and entirely deleted that posting?  After all, it does not have any criticism of anyone, aside from thanking and complimenting Schewe.  The rest of it covers issues related to the printers -- done at the request of those who sent me PM messages.

But if no one sees any value in that, aside from Neil, then maybe at this point I should just delete it and be done with it.
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Schewe
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« Reply #132 on: November 18, 2008, 07:14:18 PM »
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Quote from: alan a
In that post I suggested that Jeff wouldn't bother to print anything on luster.


Is that really all you said? You didn't put a slightly nasty spin on it? Sorry, since that post is gone, all I can do is use what might possibly be a faulty memory of that post...the fact that you DO edit posts for content make is very difficult to keep track of EXACTLY what you did say (or not say and the manner and nature of what you said).

Really, I can't remember what you DID say only that I found it offensive as I have with a variety of posts you've made in reference to me. And to be honest, yes, I DID mention you in the very beginning of the Print Academy, why not...there were a number of people there who are members of this forum in DC as well as Atlanta and I suspect who will be in future EPA's around the country...what happens in the forums is germane to real life and visa versa...I didn't call you any bad names..I mentioned "Alan from the Luminous Landscape" and that we had some discussion and he had wanted me to print on Luster, so I did. I don;t recall saying anything nasty about you in public (but then maybe my memory really is going)...

:~)
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alan a
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« Reply #133 on: November 18, 2008, 07:43:28 PM »
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Quote from: Schewe
Is that really all you said? You didn't put a slightly nasty spin on it? Sorry, since that post is gone, all I can do is use what might possibly be a faulty memory of that post...the fact that you DO edit posts for content make is very difficult to keep track of EXACTLY what you did say (or not say and the manner and nature of what you said).

Really, I can't remember what you DID say only that I found it offensive as I have with a variety of posts you've made in reference to me. And to be honest, yes, I DID mention you in the very beginning of the Print Academy, why not...there were a number of people there who are members of this forum in DC as well as Atlanta and I suspect who will be in future EPA's around the country...what happens in the forums is germane to real life and visa versa...I didn't call you any bad names..I mentioned "Alan from the Luminous Landscape" and that we had some discussion and he had wanted me to print on Luster, so I did. I don;t recall saying anything nasty about you in public (but then maybe my memory really is going)...

:~)
Yes, I probably put an inappropriate spin on it.  Thus my apology.  My apology to you in that thread; my apology to you in this thread; and my apology here.
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Schewe
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« Reply #134 on: November 18, 2008, 09:01:46 PM »
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Quote from: alan a
Yes, I probably put an inappropriate spin on it.  Thus my apology.  My apology to you in that thread; my apology to you in this thread; and my apology here.


And that's pretty much all I wanted to accomplish in all of this and I'm prepared to move on as well. Fact is, I wondered about even bringing you and your request up at the Epson Print Academy...but since you had made such a big deal out of my making prints for you I thought it would be fun to point you out at the event, show you the prints and have a discussion at the break or at lunch. I wasn't really sure if it was gonna be DC or Dallas that you were attending. I'm sorry you took offense to being mentioned and I'm sorry we didn't get a chance to meet. Heck, I would have bought you a drink (or let you buy me one). I also hope you found the event useful and the speakers providing useful content.

...and just to be clear, (in the event that anybody wonders) I am in person the way I am on line...what you see is what you get. I am what I am...

Also, I hope you got the chance to talk to one of the dealers there...I think both CD area dealers will be showing 7900 when they actually start shipping. I also hope that meeting and talking with the Epson reps there–did you meet Todd? He's very good, if he gave you a card, keep it, he can come in real handy.

The fact is, the 7900 and its big brother 9900 really are very good (and big and heavy) printers...really the state of the art in digital printing at the moment. But of course, I'm biased so take whatever I say with a grain of salt...

:~)
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Ryan Grayley
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« Reply #135 on: November 19, 2008, 04:44:30 AM »
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Quote from: Schewe
The 7900 is a really good printer...it doesn't suffer from the same GD that HP's without glop do (nor the 600 series Epson printers), the spectro for the Epson is designed for the proofing market and photographers would be better served getting a whole color management package rather than the Epson spectro because by nature, the Epson printers don't need to resort to constant profiling that the HPs seem to.

I agree with this view. I bought the base model ESP 7900 without Spectro on the basis that my Eye One Pro package would do just fine and indeed it does. I am producing lovely ESP 7900 Mk prints on Hahnemuehle PhotoRag Ultrasmooth profiled with the Bill Atkinson 4096 test chart.

(Edit: fixed a typo.)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 04:54:30 AM by Ionaca » Logged

Ryan Grayley BA IEng MIET ARPS
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neil snape
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« Reply #136 on: November 19, 2008, 05:11:06 AM »
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Quote from: Schewe
The fact is, the 7900 and its big brother 9900 really are very good (and big and heavy) printers...really the state of the art in digital printing at the moment. But of course, I'm biased so take whatever I say with a grain of salt...

:~)
I am just as biased, but to add to the above: how many ways can it be put? The x900 printers are the top of the top in photo printing (LFP) period. It is more than just the image quality, it is build quality,media  compatibility, media handling, personalization through software adjustments, controllability, etc, etc. Going beyond that user support, tech support, sales support, support by the likes of the very helpful Jeff Schewe and his colleagues, and the foundation of excellence in R&D who really understand photographers.

The other brands have their rightful advantages, like initial price, some feature sets, ink stability, and what not that make them an option for whichever user decides those points are justifiable for their operation.

That said , it's always good to look into all the advantages of each brand. The information coming back from users who know the machines intimately is in the end valuable , as valuable as the source that it comes from.
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Mussi_Spectraflow
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« Reply #137 on: November 20, 2008, 05:35:44 PM »
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Wow this thread is getting a bit long, and heated. Just posted the X900 review to the website.
I'm somewhat reluctant to post the link in this thread since I dont really have any interest in inflaming an argument. What I'll say is that I think the X900 is a wonderful printer, although I come down a bit on the Spectroproofer. In terms of absolute "quality" I think the Z3200 has a few advantages, although they are very subtle. Also I do mention bronzing, which i'm almos sorry for now  On luster paper it's there if you look for it. Do I think it's a big deal? No not really. Other than evaluating nuances of image quality the X900 is a real impressive machine and it's mix of speed and quality is unrivaled. Ohh, and I'm officially tired of comparing gamuts. I really don't want to spend any more time on questions regarding what is better the HP or Epson. The short and long answer is that they are both good enough.

Epson 7900 and 990 review
http://www.spectraflow.com/index.php?optio...4&Itemid=67

Should I put this link in a new thread?
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Julian Mussi

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William Morse
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« Reply #138 on: November 20, 2008, 05:52:08 PM »
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Yes!    
Long Live the new Thread!

Thanks, Bill
Quote from: Mussi_Spectraflow
Should I put this link in a new thread?
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Wm. Morse Editions
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alan a
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« Reply #139 on: November 20, 2008, 09:05:36 PM »
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Quote from: Mussi_Spectraflow
An excellent and very comprehensive review.  We will all benefit from your thorough evaluation and coverage of the issues related to both printers.  Thanks very much.

PS  In my own report on the 7900 from the Print Academy, above, I noted that the 7900 appeared to be very quiet.  But I said that any operating noise might have been masked by the noise in the room.  You confirmed my impression, that it is indeed a quiet printer.  Thanks also for reporting on how the new roller system without spindles works, since I didn't see a demo of that.
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