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Author Topic: Leica s2  (Read 60153 times)
markowich
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« Reply #140 on: July 19, 2009, 02:45:10 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Yet, if any brand is going to defy the odds, it will be Leica. They are the world's best at making the Kool-Aid and perpetuating the hype. Each camera body ships with its own marble pedestal, to enable proper worshiping.

their fanboys and salesmen are creating the hype beyond any rational and against the proven leica digital track record. can you imagine the same happen with hasselblad or phase?
impossible. people become very irrational when it comes to leica. i guess it is still the old rangefinder myth, but leica will have a tough sailing in (almost) MF territory,
where facts and IQ count more than myths...when it boils down to 30-50K investments. i am still appalled by the m8 failures, where i let myself be carried away and invested
heavily (25k USD at least) into a heavily faulty system (my fault, agreed....), featuring about every deficiency a digital camera can have. this combined with the arrogance
of leica (and their fanboys) really put me off. some users claim to get excellent 30x20 inch prints out of it, i just don't. nikon D3x and H3DII 50, what a relief...unfortunately much more
'conventional' than a leica. i'd rather opt for less coolness and more IQ (and i am not comparing 10mpx to 50mpx files here, just prints and people's claims).
peter

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carstenw
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« Reply #141 on: July 19, 2009, 03:26:10 PM »
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Quote from: markowich
their fanboys and salesmen are creating the hype beyond any rational and against the proven leica digital track record. can you imagine the same happen with hasselblad or phase?
impossible. people become very irrational when it comes to leica. i guess it is still the old rangefinder myth, but leica will have a tough sailing in (almost) MF territory,
where facts and IQ count more than myths...when it boils down to 30-50K investments. i am still appalled by the m8 failures, where i let myself be carried away and invested
heavily (25k USD at least) into a heavily faulty system (my fault, agreed....), featuring about every deficiency a digital camera can have. this combined with the arrogance
of leica (and their fanboys) really put me off. some users claim to get excellent 30x20 inch prints out of it, i just don't. nikon D3x and H3DII 50, what a relief...unfortunately much more
'conventional' than a leica. i'd rather opt for less coolness and more IQ (and i am not comparing 10mpx to 50mpx files here, just prints and people's claims).
peter

As is usual in these discussions, the detractors are far louder, more numerous, and dubious in their claims than the fans. There are reasons to like these cameras. I cannot think of a single decent reason for posting negative posts like this, however. Got nothing better to do in your spare time than picking on Leica?
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narikin
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« Reply #142 on: July 19, 2009, 03:59:09 PM »
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Quote from: carstenw
As is usual in these discussions, the detractors are far louder, more numerous, and dubious in their claims than the fans. There are reasons to like these cameras. I cannot think of a single decent reason for posting negative posts like this, however. Got nothing better to do in your spare time than picking on Leica?
disagree. there seem to be an inordinate amount of Leica boosters on this thread talking up a camera that has not been released, that nobody has really used, and has zero pro usage track record. is that not dubious above all? for a hard working professional who needs a bullet proof workflow and results, to invest in that would be foolhardy, at least in its early days.

I want more choice in cameras and welcome the break from type, but have a brain I wish to keep engaged when dealing with $25-40,000 investments - Yes, even with Leica (or Apple).
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carstenw
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« Reply #143 on: July 19, 2009, 04:43:57 PM »
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Quote from: narikin
disagree. there seem to be an inordinate amount of Leica boosters on this thread talking up a camera that has not been released, that nobody has really used, and has zero pro usage track record. is that not dubious above all? for a hard working professional who needs a bullet proof workflow and results, to invest in that would be foolhardy, at least in its early days.

I want more choice in cameras and welcome the break from type, but have a brain I wish to keep engaged when dealing with $25-40,000 investments - Yes, even with Leica (or Apple).

There is nothing dubious about a camera with no track record. It is what it is, and how could it have a track record? It hasn't been released yet. There is nothing dubious about hoping that it will turn out well. There is nothing dubious in believing that it will probably turn out well. There is nothing dubious in recommending that someone who needs what it offers hold off on decision-making until it comes out, to see how it will turn out. There is nothing dubious about liking Leica cameras, or the results that they give. No one here is going to spend $25000-40000 without having their brain on, not even the "Leica boosters". I don't know how you got that impression.

There would be something dubious about recommending that someone buy it without waiting to see how things turn out. There would be something dubious in promoting the camera as the second coming of Christ. This is however not what is happening here. There are some hopefuls, and some optimists, but I don't see anyone here saying that the camera is everything anyone (or someone) could want. The opinions offered here are well on the side of the realistic, just hopeful.

There is, to my mind, something very wrong with going into every thread about Leica cameras and put the cameras down, put the company down, and call the fans religious, blind, or use terms like "the Leica faithful" or "Leica boosters". I am not a "Leica booster", I am a very happy owner sharing my opinion and experience. We are not talking about a religion here, just about a special camera, admittedly one with both good and bad sides. I am so tired of hearing the detractors spew their verbiage for no apparent reason. If you like the camera, buy it. if you don't, don't buy it. But why badmouth it? It is what it is.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 04:46:30 PM by carstenw » Logged

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« Reply #144 on: July 19, 2009, 04:54:52 PM »
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This thread proves that cameras with a track record will alway find it hard to compete with a myth.
Vaporware wins the marketing battle every time, as every journo knows. That's why preannouncements are made.

Edmund
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markowich
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« Reply #145 on: July 20, 2009, 02:06:48 AM »
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Quote from: narikin
disagree. there seem to be an inordinate amount of Leica boosters on this thread talking up a camera that has not been released, that nobody has really used, and has zero pro usage track record. is that not dubious above all? for a hard working professional who needs a bullet proof workflow and results, to invest in that would be foolhardy, at least in its early days.

I want more choice in cameras and welcome the break from type, but have a brain I wish to keep engaged when dealing with $25-40,000 investments - Yes, even with Leica (or Apple).

if leica received more realistic user feedback they -and in particular their owership- might think about themselves differently, with less arrogance and less holy grail spirit. this could even lead them to get the pricing of their cameras down to acceptable and competitive standards.
peter
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georgl
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« Reply #146 on: July 20, 2009, 04:09:59 AM »
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I came from Pentax to Leica and bought one before I even knew about "the myth" (in Germany, Leica is less known than in the States). Later I switched to the M-series, it's the far less versatile system (no macro, no tele) and has certain shortcomings due to it's fundamental conception. The M8 is still by far the smallest digital camera with such an IQ and the lenses are simply unique and spectacular (small, too). Users wanted a digital version of the M and the engineers weren't allowed to wait till technology was ready - so we have a small sensor and no effective IR-filtering. That's not the fault of Leica, customers wanted a digital M. Mr. Lee seemed to released the camera a few months early or Jenoptik changed certain parts, we will never know and they squetched MFDB-electronics into a tiny body. The IQ up to 640ASA ist pristine, although the files are small, you can print only up 22x33cm and fine-art-print-standards.  I have my M8 since over 2 years and except for their CS, which seems to be unable to put the leather coating precisly (I have a 1/3mm gap since the recall) it's a fine camera (no crashes, no failures whatsoever) with unique strengths and weaknesses. You have to know what you want to do with it! It's not the unviersal solution, it's for a certain kind of photography. Of course I hope for an improved M9 and as far as we know, this camera will come when the technology is ready.

Till that, Leica chose the opposite direction, they tried modular designs, they "digitized" a over 50 years old system but with the S-System they created a new digital system from the ground up, so that people who are not happy with the limitations of the modular/"digitized" solutions get a closed system without these limitations - and people are complaining again... The fact is: With Nikon/Canon-Pro-gear people accepted closed systems, they even accepted closing a modular system (Hasselblad) and as already said, Leica tried the other direction before. Most Pros don't use the modularity of MFDBs, they don't use technical cameras, most of them want MF-quality with the convenience of a smaller, closed system. But nobody wanted to invest into an entirely new system (were in 2009 and only on back is near full-frame, all other MF-solutions are crop-systems and N/C still try to sell >6k$-pixelmonsters with 1,5k$-zooms!). Well, Mr. Kaufmann did and guess what, people are unhappy again...
They insourced the whole R&D-process, chose an expensive adapted ASIC-processor. Why? Because they just want to be arrogant and throw money out of the window? No, because it's the only way to solve certain problems of the DMR/M8.

You cannot satisfy everybodys demands, next month we will know more about the S-System and hopefully it's a worthy addition to the market and not another "me too"-system or faulty-design. It's the propably the last chance in a long time to give pros/demanding photographers another choice! It will take a few months and we will know more. What we did was just speculating on the basis of technical data and our impressions of prototypes. We weren't talking about reliability or other things we certainly don't know yet!

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cyberean
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« Reply #147 on: July 20, 2009, 06:32:58 AM »
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[!--quoteo(post=298863:date=Jul 19 2009, 01:43 PM:name=)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE ( @ Jul 19 2009, 01:43 PM) [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=298863\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]I am so tired of hearing the detractors spew their verbiage for no apparent reason. If you like the camera, buy it. if you don't, don't buy it. But why badmouth it? It is what it is.[/quote]
yes ... i'm so tired of hearing the cheerleaders spew their adorations for no apparent reason.
if you don't like the camera, don't buy it.  and if you do, buy it.  but why goodmouth it?  
it is what it is.  (or more accurately ... "what it is" is yet to be determined)

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pschefz
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« Reply #148 on: July 20, 2009, 10:41:50 AM »
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nobody is badmouthing leica....some are simply discussing the yet unproven concept of the S2 in a professional photography context 2009....which is questionable....most here seem to agree that we actually all WANT this to succeed....because we all at one point or another have had a certain leica bug....
what we do know is that the lenses will be great....what we HOPE is that the body/capture/digital end will be a lot smoother then the m8 release...

i really hope leica has learned from that fiasco...it is a lot easier to sell a camera everybody is waiting for to use their lenses on the a completely new system...for the highest end (even for leica) and actually not even for their market....one could argue that the only professional cameras leica have built is the m line for photojournalists....the S2 is made for commercial pros, which is a new market for leica....

sorry, as good as the R line was, i have never seen or heard of a pro using it, although i am sure there are/were some because of its obvious advantages (it always comes down to the lenses with leica...)....

i am afraid the S2 will fail inspite of being maybe the best "MF" system ever made....probably because it is the last....
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tashley
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« Reply #149 on: July 20, 2009, 12:33:08 PM »
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Quote from: markowich
their fanboys and salesmen are creating the hype beyond any rational and against the proven leica digital track record. can you imagine the same happen with hasselblad or phase?
impossible. people become very irrational when it comes to leica. i guess it is still the old rangefinder myth, but leica will have a tough sailing in (almost) MF territory,
where facts and IQ count more than myths...when it boils down to 30-50K investments. i am still appalled by the m8 failures, where i let myself be carried away and invested
heavily (25k USD at least) into a heavily faulty system (my fault, agreed....), featuring about every deficiency a digital camera can have. this combined with the arrogance
of leica (and their fanboys) really put me off. some users claim to get excellent 30x20 inch prints out of it, i just don't. nikon D3x and H3DII 50, what a relief...unfortunately much more
'conventional' than a leica. i'd rather opt for less coolness and more IQ (and i am not comparing 10mpx to 50mpx files here, just prints and people's claims).
peter


I'm sorry you've had a bad Leica experience I really am - but you just sound bitter! You seemed very quick to attack David Farkas and me on the subject of print quality. I didn't bother to defend myself, David merely did what you might have done before taking a pop at him, i.e. he just outlined his credentials, which are generally well known hereabouts.

The facts are:

David gets great 20 x 30's
I get them, and I exhibit them and I sell them
David Adamson, one of the world's finest digital printmakers and a man who has made prints for exhibits for many of the biggest name photographers alive and dead, gets great prints to even larger sizes. See this thread: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/...-m8-prints.html

We all have different ways of doing it but believe me it can be done. I am one of the people who bought an M8 first, was most critical of certain aspects of its performance, but three bodies later (now on an 8.2) it is still the single best camera I have ever used. It was my first Leica, and I had never previously thought of owning one.

So to call people like me 'fanboys' is just daft - and like I say it makes you sound bitter. 'Fanboy' implies that we make purchases on the basis of delusional brand loyalty rather than product quality. In other words it's a pretty rude thing to say and you are not able to substantiate it. Seems like poor manners to me.

Tim
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 05:04:24 PM by tashley » Logged
narikin
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« Reply #150 on: July 20, 2009, 03:11:27 PM »
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I think the problem is that you are discussing a camera THAT DOES NOT EXIST
so anyone singing its praises here is doing so on rumor, paper specifications, and their aspirations for it.

I guess people would argue they can make an informed guess from Leica's legacy and 'track record', so:

is Leica (M series in general) one of the great cameras of all time? - yes, unquestionably.
is every camera Leica ever designed the best ever of its type - no, its not, eg: R series
are some Leica lenses among the best in the world? yes, undoubtedly some are.
is every lens Leica ever designed/released the best of its type? no, certainly not.

moreover:
has Leica got a perfect track record of releasing digital products that work out the box from version 1.0 for a pro to rely on from Day 1? - no they don't.
has Leica got significant RAW software experience for a modern ultra reliable cross platform digital workflow, without C1 to fall back on - no they haven't.

with all that in mind: is the S2 a great camera with great lenses and a great workflow  to deliver class leading results? - completely unknown - it is not released... camera, lenses, software. none of it is in the real world. its all just hot air to so far.

I would LOVE the S2 to be a great camera, I am lucky enough to have the resources to buy one if I so need, if its everything we all hope it to be, then I may well do, BUT till then, its all hearsay, paper statistics and wishful thinking, for anyone to insist otherwise is foolhardy.
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markowich
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« Reply #151 on: July 21, 2009, 02:19:15 AM »
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tim,
i had good 20x30 inch print quality come out of certain D2H files, sometimes also with minimal workflow. it is a complete scientific triviality
that 'low information content' images do not require high megapixel count sensor imaging to be well represented in prints. but it is another
scientific triviality that high information 'content' images need high megapixel recording. certainly not everybody is into landscapes and other
high information content stuff and those may very well be better served with 10-15 mpx. the m8 falls into that range but -as far as i am concerned-
disqualifies itself for other image deficiencies.
certainly, the medium format industry is in a big crisis and the timing of the S2 launch is the worst possible. it is a pity that leica enters a lost race
which only detracts them from their main potential strength: designing and building lenses, preferably (IMHO) for nikon and canon.
horses for courses.
peter

Quote from: tashley
I'm sorry you've had a bad Leica experience I really am - but you just sound bitter! You seemed very quick to attack David Farkas and me on the subject of print quality. I didn't bother to defend myself, David merely did what you might have done before taking a pop at him, i.e. he just outlined his credentials, which are generally well known hereabouts.

The facts are:

David gets great 20 x 30's
I get them, and I exhibit them and I sell them
David Adamson, one of the world's finest digital printmakers and a man who has made prints for exhibits for many of the biggest name photographers alive and dead, gets great prints to even larger sizes. See this thread: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/...-m8-prints.html

We all have different ways of doing it but believe me it can be done. I am one of the people who bought an M8 first, was most critical of certain aspects of its performance, but three bodies later (now on an 8.2) it is still the single best camera I have ever used. It was my first Leica, and I had never previously thought of owning one.

So to call people like me 'fanboys' is just daft - and like I say it makes you sound bitter. 'Fanboy' implies that we make purchases on the basis of delusional brand loyalty rather than product quality. In other words it's a pretty rude thing to say and you are not able to substantiate it. Seems like poor manners to me.

Tim
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tashley
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« Reply #152 on: July 21, 2009, 06:15:15 AM »
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Quote from: markowich
tim,
... it is a complete scientific triviality
that 'low information content' images do not require high megapixel count sensor imaging to be well represented in prints. but it is another
scientific triviality that high information 'content' images need high megapixel recording. ....
peter


Thank you Peter - in all my years of making images with everything from a Ricoh to a 4 x 5 film camera via an M8, 1DSIII and a P45+ mounted on a technical camera with Schneider glass, of exhibiting, publishing and selling these images (very often landscapes) around the world, I had never realized the above vital facts. I am in your debt. And thanks for the apology.

Tim
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markowich
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« Reply #153 on: July 21, 2009, 10:09:11 AM »
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Quote from: tashley
Thank you Peter - in all my years of making images with everything from a Ricoh to a 4 x 5 film camera via an M8, 1DSIII and a P45+ mounted on a technical camera with Schneider glass, of exhibiting, publishing and selling these images (very often landscapes) around the world, I had never realized the above vital facts. I am in your debt. And thanks for the apology.

Tim
tim, i certainly did not want to insult you. i just oppose the point of view 'take an m8, go out and take pictures, do minimal pp, print 20x30 and be enjoy the wonderful print'. you and i have the m8 and P45 comparism.
peter
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PHOTO ZARA
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« Reply #154 on: July 21, 2009, 11:14:55 AM »
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Quote from: markowich
if leica received more realistic user feedback they -and in particular their owership- might think about themselves differently, with less arrogance and less holy grail spirit. this could even lead them to get the pricing of their cameras down to acceptable and competitive standards.
peter


agreed

if Leica would only listen but I doubt it!

on the other hand I think they know they don't stand a chance against Nikon or Canon

but maybe they are happy and confident to compete with Phase and Hasselblad that is why being in
between with their specs (no men's land) feels fit.

IMO Leica is like a Hercules beautiful to look at

now imagine Hercules a coward  


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« Reply #155 on: July 21, 2009, 11:30:29 AM »
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Quote from: markowich
tim, i certainly did not want to insult you. i just oppose the point of view 'take an m8, go out and take pictures, do minimal pp, print 20x30 and be enjoy the wonderful print'. you and i have the m8 and P45 comparism.
peter

Peter,

If you're ever in Miami, I'd be happy to give you a tour of the lab and show you my workflow and the corresponding results.

David
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« Reply #156 on: July 21, 2009, 11:34:30 AM »
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Quote from: narikin
I think the problem is that you are discussing a camera THAT DOES NOT EXIST
so anyone singing its praises here is doing so on rumor, paper specifications, and their aspirations for it.

I guess people would argue they can make an informed guess from Leica's legacy and 'track record', so:

is Leica (M series in general) one of the great cameras of all time? - yes, unquestionably.
is every camera Leica ever designed the best ever of its type - no, its not, eg: R series
are some Leica lenses among the best in the world? yes, undoubtedly some are.
is every lens Leica ever designed/released the best of its type? no, certainly not.

moreover:
has Leica got a perfect track record of releasing digital products that work out the box from version 1.0 for a pro to rely on from Day 1? - no they don't.
has Leica got significant RAW software experience for a modern ultra reliable cross platform digital workflow, without C1 to fall back on - no they haven't.

with all that in mind: is the S2 a great camera with great lenses and a great workflow  to deliver class leading results? - completely unknown - it is not released... camera, lenses, software. none of it is in the real world. its all just hot air to so far.

I would LOVE the S2 to be a great camera, I am lucky enough to have the resources to buy one if I so need, if its everything we all hope it to be, then I may well do, BUT till then, its all hearsay, paper statistics and wishful thinking, for anyone to insist otherwise is foolhardy.


funny, but the camera I held and shot with seemed real to me..but I am one of those that believe we did in fact go to the moon..as crazy as that seems.
regarding track record.. I am one of only 3 thousand that bought a leica dmr..I have no experience with the m8, but have only good experiences with my dmr.
someone mentioned that the dmr is not used professionally..I have used my dmr professionally, I think a few others have too..but that could be a rumor too.
 
I don't think anyone that has been praising leica efforts regarding the S2 are as full of hot air or foolhardy as you claim, I am somewhat amused by the rabid
reaction some here have to the positive comments of a few folks that are excited by this new camera, we shall all see how the files and software measure up.


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arashm
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« Reply #157 on: July 21, 2009, 11:51:35 AM »
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Quote from: dfarkas
Peter,

If you're ever in Miami, I'd be happy to give you a tour of the lab and show you my workflow and the corresponding results.

David


David
some of us may actually take you up on that offer
don't worry I'll buy the first round after
am
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« Reply #158 on: July 21, 2009, 11:57:14 AM »
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Quote from: arashm
David
some of us may actually take you up on that offer
don't worry I'll buy the first round after
am

You're welcome to come on by anytime.

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« Reply #159 on: July 21, 2009, 12:04:35 PM »
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Quote from: paulmoorestudio
funny, but the camera I held and shot with seemed real to me..



Until it ships I don't think anyone knows what this camera will be like (which has been repeated about 400 times here) and experienced about 4 billion times by digital first adopters.

Still, regardless of all of that there is something magic in the Leica and it's not just the name or becoming blinded by the Leica dust.    

It's the size, the feel, the use, the weight, the silence, the non in your face style that happens when you shoot such a small friendly camera.  (yea that's it, the Leica is friendly) and there is a big difference between shooting a subject with a huge medium format camera, or dslr.  People just react differently, you work differently.  Sure a Canon G10 might make a superior file in the world of smooth as a babies butt digital images, but it just doesn't feel or work the same because I tried one and just can't get past the toyness of those small digital cameras.

The Leica may be friendly but their is no toyness to it.  

View this video   http://tinyurl.com/nvusy8   (I saw it first on aphotoeditor.com) and if you watch this and don't want to go buy an M series then your a stronger willed person than I am.

Given all of this, I am surprised, that more effort wasn't first put into the M series, instead of the S-2.   The M faithful is huge and would probably love a real full frame (and silent M8) maybe a few frames a second faster shooting, obviously a bigger buffer, most importantly a meter that worked and (ok I know this part is heresy) but maybe even a few autofocus M series lenses.

From everyone I know that has an M-8 everyone loves it, everyone knows it's problems and shortcomings and I doubt if anyone would sell theirs.  I also doubt if many M-8 owners are breathing hard waiting for a dslr.    That's gotta tell you something, though maybe I'm wrong.  I kind of hope I'm wrong because the last thing I want to see is any of these traditional camera companies go away.  We all lose a little piece of ourselves and our industry every time one closes.

I can see a new M8, but don't know about an S2 at least for doing walk the streets work, but maybe it's not intended for that.  

Now the interesting thing to me is when I watch that video is how beautiful the still images are compared to the video images and though the stills obviously stand alone quite well, it's also obvious with the sound, the music, he dialog from the video and the photographers POV the still images resonate even stronger.  

Imagine if the video camera had the Leicaness of the stills?

Just a thought.

JR
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