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Author Topic: Leica s2  (Read 60647 times)
bradleygibson
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« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2009, 07:14:45 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Design over Functionality, young man. Repeat this mantra over and over and over. It must be pretty. It must be pretty sitting on the shelf, being worshiped, while the hoards crowd around it.

Remember too, when you're only shooting sunsets with it, you have plenty of time to scroll thru the endless Menus; so what's the problem?

Every camera has its demographic -- to the unhurried professional male, with his sweater tied around his shoulders, and his driving gloves on, the camera will be well-received.
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bryanyc
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« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2009, 11:46:14 PM »
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On July 13th at Fotocare in NYC there will be a preview of the camera and system.....
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cjmonty
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« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2009, 10:36:57 PM »
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I agree with almost everyone that the S2 is a silly camera... but then again after looking at the specs and details- it looks like Leica is just raising the bar on Canon and Nikon dSLRs doing something similar that they did with the M6 versus the old 35mm SLRs...
giving a higher quality, more purposefully designed and pricier alternative to 35mm shooters- be they well-funded photojournalists, well-funded artists, well-funded collectors or well-funded fund managers.

I mean really, compared to Phase and Hasselblad, they are throwing down with higher quality hardware:
-Organic LED Screen and info display (wtf!)
-all metal construction
-lenses that are going to be uncompromisingly good
-Body AND lens shutter system (wtf!!!)
-Dust and Waterproof

I know almost no one needs all these things, but its impressive that someone is willing to step up and say "it can be done"

I think that's the biggest issue with MFDB imaging these days- a whole new world of potential after film, but very few companies that are daring and capitalized enough to make real advances.
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carstenw
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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2009, 04:06:24 AM »
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Quote from: cjmonty
I agree with almost everyone that the S2 is a silly camera... but then again after looking at the specs and details- it looks like Leica is just raising the bar on Canon and Nikon dSLRs doing something similar that they did with the M6 versus the old 35mm SLRs...
giving a higher quality, more purposefully designed and pricier alternative to 35mm shooters- be they well-funded photojournalists, well-funded artists, well-funded collectors or well-funded fund managers.

I mean really, compared to Phase and Hasselblad, they are throwing down with higher quality hardware:
-Organic LED Screen and info display (wtf!)
-all metal construction
-lenses that are going to be uncompromisingly good
-Body AND lens shutter system (wtf!!!)
-Dust and Waterproof

I know almost no one needs all these things, but its impressive that someone is willing to step up and say "it can be done"

I think that's the biggest issue with MFDB imaging these days- a whole new world of potential after film, but very few companies that are daring and capitalized enough to make real advances.

The more I think about the Leica S2 and its strategy, the more I think that Leica is more or less ignoring the MF world, and just going after frustrated high-end DSLR users, photographers who want more IQ, better lenses, no AA filter, and maybe a leaf shutter, and are willing to give up something in AF speed, high ISO, and framerate to get there.

The MF world is a circus of confusion and partial incompetence, with broken or lacking software, comedic politics, broken promises, incomplete systems, missing bits, snail-pace development, sub-par performance of some components, and on and on. There really is nothing very much which anyone would want to emulate here, even from Hasselblad, which has a more coherent story than anyone else.

(Having said that, I enjoy my Contax 645 with Sinar e54 very much, but I am not a pro and don't have to shoot every day under pressure.)
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Cartman
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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2009, 02:35:35 AM »
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I for one hope it makes a go of it, though I too would be annoyed by having to slow down for menus rather than buttons and switches.  But I want it to succeed not out of any love for Leica -- there is no dislike there either by the way -- rather, I want Canon and Nikon to come out with new mounts and lenses to accommodate sensors larger than the 35mm legacy size.  Preferably modular systems, but not necessary.  Leica, IMO, is showing the way.

And though I've seen a lot of flowery and/or pompous affectations over the years, and I'm not condemning any man who wants to show off like a peacock -- Lord knows I've been guilty -- perhaps the double period ("..") sentence endings are a little much?
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KevinA
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« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2009, 09:07:31 AM »
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Quote from: cjmonty
I agree with almost everyone that the S2 is a silly camera... but then again after looking at the specs and details- it looks like Leica is just raising the bar on Canon and Nikon dSLRs doing something similar that they did with the M6 versus the old 35mm SLRs...
giving a higher quality, more purposefully designed and pricier alternative to 35mm shooters- be they well-funded photojournalists, well-funded artists, well-funded collectors or well-funded fund managers.

I mean really, compared to Phase and Hasselblad, they are throwing down with higher quality hardware:
-Organic LED Screen and info display (wtf!)
-all metal construction
-lenses that are going to be uncompromisingly good
-Body AND lens shutter system (wtf!!!)
-Dust and Waterproof

I know almost no one needs all these things, but its impressive that someone is willing to step up and say "it can be done"

I think that's the biggest issue with MFDB imaging these days- a whole new world of potential after film, but very few companies that are daring and capitalized enough to make real advances.

"Lenses that are going to be uncompromisingly good" will do it for me.  

Kevin.
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Kevin.
mtomalty
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« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2009, 12:04:09 PM »
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"The MF world is a circus of confusion and partial incompetence, with broken or lacking software, comedic politics, broken promises, incomplete systems, missing bits, snail-pace development, sub-par performance of some components, and on and on."

With this in mind, then, Leica should be a perfect fit into 'MF World' as some recent years exploits have shown.

The M8 and system comes to mind.  In the three years since introduction they have finessed it into a pretty sweet camera and lens lineup but
for much of this time it was a camera crippled by problems and workarounds.  The camera survived, and thrived, despite these troubles thanks, mostly, to an established rangefinder userbase that was willing to accept these shortcomings and defend the brand
with an almost rabid fervor.

Leica won't, I think, be able to count on these same individuals in the same numbers as the M8 launch to prop up a new S2, should it be flawed at launch  (and there are no indications that it will be).
They will have to be winning over new users to the system and in this economic climate coming in with a very expensive niche product, with no track record, will be a very tough sell to create enough inertia to
propel the system forward.

I wish them well but, personally, I have my doubts.  I think all available resources should have been put into pushing the M system development much further and faster.  This is Leicas unique product in the photo market and to push
technology harder to solidify a full frame system and increase sales enough so that price per unit could be lowered would have made the most sense for Leica.

MT
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pschefz
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« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2009, 08:58:00 PM »
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with prices for DMF going down down down (i get emails every day offering all makes and configurations at lower and lower prices....except for the P65 of course) it will come down to price....i am not sure there are enough leica freaks out there to support a complete line of lenses for this system...
i would love to see one, that finder alone should be what DMF should have been.....i agree this concept looks great but i am afraid it won't be able to compete with the high iso, handling, price and AF of DSLR....and..what? no HD video:)?
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tashley
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« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2009, 04:10:10 AM »
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Quote from: pschefz
.....i agree this concept looks great but i am afraid it won't be able to compete with the high iso, handling, price and AF of DSLR....and..what? no HD video:)?


I could not agree more with your fear but... The S2 is not a clear alternative for a MF system, it is a potential compromise for some users who do not often or ever shoot with technical or view cameras and who are therefore using one of the SLR style bodies such as the Phamiya, which IMHO is far too unrefined for the backs it serves.

If users are going to give up a few pixels and a few body options in order to get the smaller, neater, more refined S2 with its clever per-lens calibration systems, they will absolutely have to get DSLR quality AF (by which I mean Nikon not Canon) and an ISO performance that closely tracks a 5DII on a per pixel basis. No AA filter will mean that many people might have tolerance for a small shortfall in either of these areas but then again, you won't be able to just  wake up one morning and say 'ooh, I think I'll pick up a fast long zoom at the store today'...

I really want the S2 to work. It is a brilliant and brave idea. Further, I wouldn't let the fact that the chips are stacked against it worry me too much: I had one of the first M8s and saw very many early 'aggressive non-adopters' eventually fall for its charms because in truth it's an excellent and unique product and Leica got it about right, despite the early brickbats!

Tim
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 04:11:51 AM by tashley » Logged
michaelbiondo
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« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2009, 06:09:41 AM »
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Anyone at fotocare yesterday for the demo?
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BJNY
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« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2009, 07:33:24 AM »
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Here's a snapshot from my iPhone showing the AF-ON button (to the right of eyepiece) :

[attachment=15398:S2_AF_ON.jpg]



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Guillermo
BJNY
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« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2009, 08:18:21 AM »
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I forgot to ask:

- how many actuations are the focal plane and leaf shutters rated at?
 ( e.g. Canon 1Ds3 is 300,000 )

- will firmware updates be via compact flash/SD card?

Perhaps David Farkas knows?
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Guillermo
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« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2009, 08:26:26 AM »
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Instead of their own proprietary design,

I wish Leica would adopt Canon's 5D2 battery or the same video battery Phase uses

both which are widely available and have very compact chargers.
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Guillermo
gwhitf
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« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2009, 08:36:22 AM »
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I want to ask a simple question: "Who unveils a product like this, and has a gig in a retail store, and yet does not even know the price it will sell for?" Somebody please answer that question for me. Don't you know, everyone walked out of Fotocare yesterday, maybe thinking "Yeah, it's a nice design", but when Version 1.0 of something in this price range is brought to market with that many unanswered questions, how can it succeed? Guarantee you, most everyone said, "I don't want to be first to write the check. Maybe in a year or two when it's proven track record and the bugs are worked out. Maybe I'll try to buy one used. Maybe in a couple years, when I sell a kidney to buy a second lens. Maybe some doctor will buy one and then get tired of it. Maybe, if the price is right."

Lots and lots of maybes. I just don't understand marketing in this style. Imagine walking into a Lexus showroom, and a new model is unveiled, and you ask the price, and they say, "We'll get back to you on that. Call us in a month". By the time that month rolls around, you've seen something else that's shiny, and you move on. I just don't get it. But nothing in that Leica hype mentality makes common sense. They sell them as "fashion/status accessories", not as cameras, to be used to make actual photographs.

The only guy excited about this Leica camera is that guy that runs Kurland Camera, because, guarantee you in two years, he's going to have those S2's lined up in those glass cases, with the lenses still in the leather pouches, unused, by every doctor on the East Coast, that sent him an email and said, "Ziss kamera is nice, but eets too heavy when I go skiing. Pleeze sell it for me and order me zat cute little 5D2, so I shoots veedio of my kids."
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 08:44:03 AM by gwhitf » Logged
dfarkas
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« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2009, 08:45:10 AM »
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Quote from: BJNY
I forgot to ask:

- how many actuations are the focal plane and leaf shutters rated at?
 ( e.g. Canon 1Ds3 is 300,000 )

- will firmware updates be via compact flash/SD card?

Perhaps David Farkas knows?

Billy,

I don't know this yet, but I will find out. Good question.

Regarding firmware, I'd assume that you would be able to use either CF or SD card to do firmware updates. Again, I'll check in to it.

David
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 08:46:08 AM by dfarkas » Logged

David Farkas
Leica Store Miami
www.leicastoremiami.com

Check out Red Dot Forum for Leica news, reviews, blogs and discussion
bcooter
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« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2009, 09:54:03 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
The only guy excited about this Leica camera is that guy that runs Kurland Camera, because, guarantee you in two years, he's going to have those S2's lined up in those glass cases, with the lenses still in the leather pouches, unused, by every doctor on the East Coast, that sent him an email and said, "Ziss kamera is nice, but eets too heavy when I go skiing. Pleeze sell it for me and order me zat cute little 5D2, so I shoots veedio of my kids."


It's a different world.

Even upper east side Doctors are feeling the pinch and pulling their kids out of their  Soho Lofts and sending them to community colleges,  Hip Hop Malibu folks are driving Toyota Prius' instead of gold trimmed Hummers  . . . oh yea . . . and the new "professional" camera is now the 5d2.

I was shooting on location at this funky bar and grill frequented by photographers and art directors.  (BTW:  the bar section is the ONLY hangout for advertising folks and if you want to meet an Art Director, just go to the bar) and to a person everyone came over and asked, "is that the new five dee too?".

Somewhere on another thread here, I think the one that 's titled  Hasselblad is better than Mamiya, but Mamiya is better than Chevrolet, and a Hasselblad person says, you can keep your old camera buy a new one and at a total costs of $49,000 actually save $10,000.

My eyes kind of jumped at those figures because I know I've spent that much in the past on those little black boxes but now the thought of buying a  still only camera in the $30 to $40,000 price range just boggles the mind. It almost embarrasses me to think I spent that kind of money so I live in denial and try not to think about it.  Like that time I got F*&^%d up in LA and had a bar tab of $2,700 because I yelled out, "drinks on me".

At this stage if I drop 40k, it better have a PL mount ,  come with a grip truck and have a focus puller named Big Donnie.

This Leica . . . who knows, but it is typical medium format stuff to have a show and not any real information in regards to price or usability.

I guess that worked back in the good ol' days of 2004, but today, I don't think so.

I think I know what the problem is.  The Leica people get on Luthansa or Swiss Air and since the only free magazines are 4 year old Financial Times and The Economist, so they think those AIG bonuses are still flowing.

I suggest somebody hook those guys up to the internet and send them a URL to Yahoo News.

BC
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lisa_r
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« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2009, 11:29:14 AM »
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bc, which cafe are you talking about? i'd like to go ;-)
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bcooter
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« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2009, 12:03:31 PM »
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Quote from: lisa_r
bc, which cafe are you talking about? i'd like to go ;-)


Actualy send me a private e-mail and I'll answer.


BC
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carstenw
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« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2009, 02:07:05 PM »
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Quote from: BJNY
I forgot to ask:

- how many actuations are the focal plane and leaf shutters rated at?
 ( e.g. Canon 1Ds3 is 300,000 )

- will firmware updates be via compact flash/SD card?

Perhaps David Farkas knows?

This month's LFI answer this for the leaf shutter: 100,000 images, which is actually 200,000 actuations of the shutter, given how leaf shutters work.
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georgl
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« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2009, 02:23:09 PM »
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Well, that's the minimum requirement in developement for the central shutter as far as I know, the focal plane shutter is just an ordinary Seiko-shutter also used in previous Leicas or Nikon (and Canon, too? Seiko adapts the shutters of course to the different requirements based on modules).
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