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Author Topic: I don't like any of the new MF cameras  (Read 7770 times)
Jann Lipka
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« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2008, 12:04:04 AM »
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A question about  Hasselblad H mirror delay fiunction:


Is it possible to actually expose shortly BEFORE the mirror lands in its frame
( I guess that could work for shorter exposures )   , or is
"extra mirror delay" from 25ms to 200ms happening AFTER the mirror has stopped ?


25 ms to 200 ms translates into 1/40s to 1/5 s  ....

I understand that mirror has to move out of the lens opening :-)

I must say I love the viewfinder of my H2 ...
 I'm way too old  for looking through Mamiya hole ...
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 12:18:12 AM by Jann Lipka » Logged
glennedens
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« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2008, 12:38:25 AM »
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The H3 mirror delay is a big improvement, i have experimented with the different settings and the factory default of 50ms has worked consistently, the shorter setting is still a little too quick for me to get good hand held results (certainly could be operator error .  I would definitely get an earlier body's firmware updated even for film only use.

The thing that keeps bringing me back to the H is the view through the viewfinder.  The waist level viewfinder has also proved to be useful.

The grip is, of course, the battery and the Li-ion 7.2v grip feels a lot better than the CR battery grip for film-only use.

The good news is we are starting to get lots of choices agian, it was getting pretty lean for a while.

Glenn

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Dustbak
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« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2008, 01:08:03 AM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
This enables the body to supply power from the grip to a Hasselblad CF digital back.

David

I use an H2 with CF but have not been able to supply my back via the grip?     How can I do this?

BTW, I don't mind using a separate battery for the back & body. The body now lasts a lot longer on a grip and the back seems to go forevers with a 4800Mah battery block. It would be nice to have options though.
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James R Russell
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« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2008, 01:29:10 AM »
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Quote from: woof75
I recently went into fotocare to look at all these new toys I keep reading about around here. I don't like any of them.

Hasselblad H3: grey handle looks plasticky and feels plasticky, not nice at all, most importantly though, mirror slap.

HY6: plastic, ugly, cumbersom, horrible viewfinder, looks so cheap it's terrible. Heavy.

Mamiya 645 AFD 3: the grip s wy too big to hold easily, I have really big hands and it was still uncomfortable to hold the thing.


I know this is a little off topic but I'm seriously considering going back to film for a lot of projects.

Our studio is just on digital overload, shooting, processing, storing, archiving, making film looks, updating software, computers, calibrating screens.

Today with everything else going on around me I have to get dozens of  files for three seperate projects to the retouchers and back to the clients.  Requires going on remote acess to the servers, searching, uploading, downloading, etc. etc.  

Right now I'm running about 20 terabytes on line and many more stored off location.  

In between preparing for a lot of weeks shooting on  location, between cleaning sensors, charging batteries and the like, it really is an overwhelming never ending process.  

I think between the Phase, the Canons, the leica and the computers I have about 5 different types of chargers.

Most of the buzz kill is the post processing.  Finding that elusive film look, adjusting images, etc. etc. has gotten to the point every day of shooting equals a full day of post production.

I find the same thing with clients.  Nearly to a person they miss just marking a contact and ordering a print or a scan.  To a person they dread going online to view web galleries and I don't blame them.

(As I write this at 2:26am I have a 200mb web gallery going up on line from last weeks shoot.

And to top it off, except for the dslrs, the medium format cameras I own and have tried are a less responsive than when they are used to shoot film.

So if anyone knows of a great c-41 lab (anywhere in the country or the world for that matter) that still runs a lot of c-41 (duggal or Icon maybe?) and can make beautiful englarged contacts please let me know.

Maybe I'm just tired and dreaming but I think I'll give it a try.

I know that for a lot of commercial work I'll still have to work digital but then again we'll see.

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geesbert
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« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2008, 02:53:12 AM »
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James,did you ever try to outsource the postprocessing? it takes a while to find the right one and get them to do it the way you want it, but once it works you spend so much more time behind the camera. you loose a chunk of the revenue per single shoot, but my experience is that i am eraning much more by shooting than by postprocessing. mybe my pricing structure is wrong...
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robert zimmerman
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« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2008, 03:11:28 AM »
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Quote from: James R Russell
I know this is a little off topic but I'm seriously considering going back to film for a lot of projects.

Our studio is just on digital overload, shooting, processing, storing, archiving, making film looks, updating software, computers, calibrating screens.

Today with everything else going on around me I have to get dozens of  files for three seperate projects to the retouchers and back to the clients.  Requires going on remote acess to the servers, searching, uploading, downloading, etc. etc.  

Right now I'm running about 20 terabytes on line and many more stored off location.  

In between preparing for a lot of weeks shooting on  location, between cleaning sensors, charging batteries and the like, it really is an overwhelming never ending process.  

I think between the Phase, the Canons, the leica and the computers I have about 5 different types of chargers.

Most of the buzz kill is the post processing.  Finding that elusive film look, adjusting images, etc. etc. has gotten to the point every day of shooting equals a full day of post production.

I find the same thing with clients.  Nearly to a person they miss just marking a contact and ordering a print or a scan.  To a person they dread going online to view web galleries and I don't blame them.

(As I write this at 2:26am I have a 200mb web gallery going up on line from last weeks shoot.

And to top it off, except for the dslrs, the medium format cameras I own and have tried are a less responsive than when they are used to shoot film.

So if anyone knows of a great c-41 lab (anywhere in the country or the world for that matter) that still runs a lot of c-41 (duggal or Icon maybe?) and can make beautiful englarged contacts please let me know.

Maybe I'm just tired and dreaming but I think I'll give it a try.

I know that for a lot of commercial work I'll still have to work digital but then again we'll see.

go back to bed james, you're dreaming. : )

and just in case you've actually forgotten, remember the waiting, the lost film roll, the badly developed roll, the waiting, the grain from hell, the bicycle messanger who showed up an hour late, the assistant who loaded the film the wrong way, the waiting, the film didn't transfer and no exposures were made because..., the camera with the light leek, the machine ate the film, the bad scan, the huge filing cabinets full of negs and contact sheets, the "we better shoot another roll just in case", and did i mention the waiting?
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2008, 03:15:32 AM »
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Quote from: Dustbak
I use an H2 with CF but have not been able to supply my back via the grip?     How can I do this?

BTW, I don't mind using a separate battery for the back & body. The body now lasts a lot longer on a grip and the back seems to go forevers with a 4800Mah battery block. It would be nice to have options though.

Ah, a late night typo!  I meant to refer to the CFH - a now discontinued product.

Sorry for the confusion.

David

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David Grover
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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2008, 03:17:54 AM »
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Quote from: Jann Lipka
A question about  Hasselblad H mirror delay fiunction:


Is it possible to actually expose shortly BEFORE the mirror lands in its frame
( I guess that could work for shorter exposures )   , or is
"extra mirror delay" from 25ms to 200ms happening AFTER the mirror has stopped ?


25 ms to 200 ms translates into 1/40s to 1/5 s  ....

I understand that mirror has to move out of the lens opening :-)

I must say I love the viewfinder of my H2 ...
 I'm way too old  for looking through Mamiya hole ...

Hi Jann,

I am not sure I fully understand your question?  The delay works like this...

Shutter button pressed -----> Mirror goes to the UP position -----> DELAY (25, 50, 100, 200ms) -----> Leaf Shutter Fires

Hope that helps!


David


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David Grover
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Dustbak
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« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2008, 03:20:24 AM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
Ah, a late night typo!  I meant to refer to the CFH - a now discontinued product.

Sorry for the confusion.

David


Bummer. It would be a nice extra option if it were possible.
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Jann Lipka
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« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2008, 03:35:31 AM »
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Yes of course .

I thought for a while that it would be possible ( for short exposures like 1/125 s  )
to open the lens just BEFORE the mirror comes completely in upper
position ( still in movement ) If the mirror movement duration is like 1/20 s = 50 ms , my guess is last 20 ms ( = 1/100s ) maybe there would be no shadowing on the chip ( size  is smaller  then film format it is originally build for  )  .

But  i agree if  it is not possible ( mechanical construction is very compact ) .
 I understand that  it is called DELAY  :-)

Good function anyway .

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Gigi
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« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2008, 03:49:51 AM »
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Quote from: James R Russell
I know this is a little off topic but I'm seriously considering going back to film for a lot of projects.

Our studio is just on digital overload, shooting, processing, storing, archiving, making film looks, updating software, computers, calibrating screens.

Today with everything else going on around me I have to get dozens of  files for three seperate projects to the retouchers and back to the clients.  Requires going on remote acess to the servers, searching, uploading, downloading, etc. etc.  

Right now I'm running about 20 terabytes on line and many more stored off location.  

In between preparing for a lot of weeks shooting on  location, between cleaning sensors, charging batteries and the like, it really is an overwhelming never ending process.  

I think between the Phase, the Canons, the leica and the computers I have about 5 different types of chargers.

Most of the buzz kill is the post processing.  Finding that elusive film look, adjusting images, etc. etc. has gotten to the point every day of shooting equals a full day of post production.

I find the same thing with clients.  Nearly to a person they miss just marking a contact and ordering a print or a scan.  To a person they dread going online to view web galleries and I don't blame them.

(As I write this at 2:26am I have a 200mb web gallery going up on line from last weeks shoot.

And to top it off, except for the dslrs, the medium format cameras I own and have tried are a less responsive than when they are used to shoot film.

So if anyone knows of a great c-41 lab (anywhere in the country or the world for that matter) that still runs a lot of c-41 (duggal or Icon maybe?) and can make beautiful englarged contacts please let me know.

Maybe I'm just tired and dreaming but I think I'll give it a try.

I know that for a lot of commercial work I'll still have to work digital but then again we'll see.

Hey guys, he's not dreaming.

If one steps back, there is/was an advantage to film (neg and proof) -  that all the information is densely held in one spot, and readily accessed by anyone, easily. Books are still popular - you can read them anywhere, and once stored, they are ready for access at anytime you pick them up. Without special tools too - for proof, use a lupe, no screen. There is no better file system than film for simplicity and ability for rapid retrieval.

Of course, the advantages of digital are many for sure, but the real spawning of complex layers of processing and backup is not one of them.
Finding good analog systems these days (film and printing labs) is no small trick, tho - the labor pool has moved elsewhere to be sure. Good luck finding a lab.

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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2008, 05:06:35 AM »
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Quote from: Jann Lipka
Yes of course .

I thought for a while that it would be possible ( for short exposures like 1/125 s  )
to open the lens just BEFORE the mirror comes completely in upper
position ( still in movement ) If the mirror movement duration is like 1/20 s = 50 ms , my guess is last 20 ms ( = 1/100s ) maybe there would be no shadowing on the chip ( size  is smaller  then film format it is originally build for  )  .

But  i agree if  it is not possible ( mechanical construction is very compact ) .
 I understand that  it is called DELAY  :-)

Good function anyway .

Ah! Understand.

No, I am afraid this would not be possible at all.  I am sure it would have some effect on the even exposure of the image plane.

David

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David Grover
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woof75
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« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2008, 05:08:44 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
If your going to stay with the Mamiya AFD than you may at least upgrade to the AFD-II. It is a lot better to work with and the shutter delay is better. There are some added benefits from the AFD to the II version. Not sure of them all but i was a lot happier going to the II from the AFD. Now i have the new III version ( Phase One) and i like this one even better and some new firmware is coming but has not been announced yet. That improves it even more.
What are these improvement? (other than the shutter delay)
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antonyoung
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« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2008, 05:16:30 AM »
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Quote from: David Grover / Hasselblad
It really does make a difference, and to be honest you don't really notice the delay.

But don't take my word for it.  Shoot ten pictures at 1/60 and then ten pictures with a mirror delay on and see for yourself.

David

This is BS, at least with the H1. Perhaps the H2 or H3 are better mechanically on the mirror, I don't know. The mirror delay  helps the problem somewhat, but it does not fix it. We work with a lot of photographers and I don't trust most of them handheld with the H1 under 200/250th. The steadier ones can do 125, but there will still usually be movement on some frames. And the delay is absolutely noticeable, especially at the longer settings. The Contax is by far the best mirror, a steady person can do 30th or even 15th with fairly good results. The AFD is about as good as the Contax results-wise, but doesn't feel as nice and buttery.
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woof75
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« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2008, 06:03:06 AM »
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Quote from: antonyoung
This is BS, at least with the H1. Perhaps the H2 or H3 are better mechanically on the mirror, I don't know. The mirror delay  helps the problem somewhat, but it does not fix it. We work with a lot of photographers and I don't trust most of them handheld with the H1 under 200/250th. The steadier ones can do 125, but there will still usually be movement on some frames. And the delay is absolutely noticeable, especially at the longer settings. The Contax is by far the best mirror, a steady person can do 30th or even 15th with fairly good results. The AFD is about as good as the Contax results-wise, but doesn't feel as nice and buttery.

Thats a big problem for me, I always shoot 1/125 handheld and I'm not that steady handed.
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gwhitf
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« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2008, 06:16:53 AM »
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Quote from: antonyoung
This is BS, at least with the H1. Perhaps the H2 or H3 are better mechanically on the mirror, I don't know. The mirror delay  helps the problem somewhat, but it does not fix it. We work with a lot of photographers and I don't trust most of them handheld with the H1 under 200/250th. The steadier ones can do 125, but there will still usually be movement on some frames. And the delay is absolutely noticeable, especially at the longer settings. The Contax is by far the best mirror, a steady person can do 30th or even 15th with fairly good results. The AFD is about as good as the Contax results-wise, but doesn't feel as nice and buttery.

This man speaketh the truth! He works with real working photographers every single day of the year. I mirror his observations entirely; the Contax, while being that girl at the party with the clunky shoes and the bobbed hair and the gap in her teeth, can easily be handheld reliably down to 1/30th, depending on what you did the prior night. It is a smooth shutter with VERY little noticeable bounce.

Fellows, this is something not to be overlooked, unless you shoot everything on a tripod with the mirror locked up, or if you shoot in a dark studio with Profotos. I read about this Hocus Phocus with the mirror delay "fix", but it's never felt right to me; kinda like putting lipstick... I never felt good about anything under 250th, and I'd sure hate to have a shutter lag. People running from that early Mamiya body for that very reason.

Shame about Kyocera. That Contax sitting there and just waiting to be dressed up, and having $150k spent on new clothing at Neiman's, and Kyocera keeps her under lock and key.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 06:17:56 AM by gwhitf » Logged
James R Russell
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« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2008, 07:05:55 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
This man speaketh the truth! He works with real working photographers every single day of the year. I mirror his observations entirely; the Contax, while being that girl at the party with the clunky shoes and the bobbed hair and the gap in her teeth, can easily be handheld reliably down to 1/30th, depending on what you did the prior night. It is a smooth shutter with VERY little noticeable bounce.

Fellows, this is something not to be overlooked, unless you shoot everything on a tripod with the mirror locked up, or if you shoot in a dark studio with Profotos. I read about this Hocus Phocus with the mirror delay "fix", but it's never felt right to me; kinda like putting lipstick... I never felt good about anything under 250th, and I'd sure hate to have a shutter lag. People running from that early Mamiya body for that very reason.

Shame about Kyocera. That Contax sitting there and just waiting to be dressed up, and having $150k spent on new clothing at Neiman's, and Kyocera keeps her under lock and key.



Shhhh.  Let's keep those Contax prices down.  

The only reason I bother with semi medium format is probably because of the Contax.  The Phamiya is getting better, (it had a long way to go) but you still can't pop the top and shoot a horizontal with a waist level finder and it doesn't make that pretty sound when you shoot.

The Contax is like going from 1st to 2nd in a bmw m3.  The Phamiya is like shifting a Kia, it works but feels disconnected.   The H series like hitting the gears in Jeep.

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David Grover / Phase One
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« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2008, 07:06:31 AM »
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Phew!

Hey, I said don't take it from me (or anyone else for that matter) but simply make the test yourself.

Other 'real working photographers' have reported that it works for them.  So I would simply draw your own conclusions AFTER using the camera.  If you don't feel it beneficial then I wouldn't attempt to sway you otherwise.

Best,


David
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 07:08:29 AM by David Grover / Hasselblad » Logged

David Grover
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yodelyo
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« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2008, 07:46:20 AM »
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Yeah I here you. I still shoot film; 120 color neg still rules. Fleshtones Color lab in Los Angeles is awesome, ask for paul.


Quote from: James R Russell
I know this is a little off topic but I'm seriously considering going back to film for a lot of projects.

Our studio is just on digital overload, shooting, processing, storing, archiving, making film looks, updating software, computers, calibrating screens.

Today with everything else going on around me I have to get dozens of  files for three seperate projects to the retouchers and back to the clients.  Requires going on remote acess to the servers, searching, uploading, downloading, etc. etc.  

Right now I'm running about 20 terabytes on line and many more stored off location.  

In between preparing for a lot of weeks shooting on  location, between cleaning sensors, charging batteries and the like, it really is an overwhelming never ending process.  

I think between the Phase, the Canons, the leica and the computers I have about 5 different types of chargers.

Most of the buzz kill is the post processing.  Finding that elusive film look, adjusting images, etc. etc. has gotten to the point every day of shooting equals a full day of post production.

I find the same thing with clients.  Nearly to a person they miss just marking a contact and ordering a print or a scan.  To a person they dread going online to view web galleries and I don't blame them.

(As I write this at 2:26am I have a 200mb web gallery going up on line from last weeks shoot.

And to top it off, except for the dslrs, the medium format cameras I own and have tried are a less responsive than when they are used to shoot film.

So if anyone knows of a great c-41 lab (anywhere in the country or the world for that matter) that still runs a lot of c-41 (duggal or Icon maybe?) and can make beautiful englarged contacts please let me know.

Maybe I'm just tired and dreaming but I think I'll give it a try.

I know that for a lot of commercial work I'll still have to work digital but then again we'll see.
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woof75
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« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2008, 01:00:46 PM »
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Quote from: James R Russell
Shhhh.  Let's keep those Contax prices down.  

The only reason I bother with semi medium format is probably because of the Contax.  The Phamiya is getting better, (it had a long way to go) but you still can't pop the top and shoot a horizontal with a waist level finder and it doesn't make that pretty sound when you shoot.

The Contax is like going from 1st to 2nd in a bmw m3.  The Phamiya is like shifting a Kia, it works but feels disconnected.   The H series like hitting the gears in Jeep.

So what don't you like about the Phamiya James and why do you think it had a ways to go (except shutter lag)?
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