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Author Topic: Phase One P65+  (Read 30130 times)
clawery
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« on: October 28, 2008, 09:04:57 AM »
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Capture Integration was lucky to be the first to show the P65+ in the US. Please take a look at some of the test shots we shot. The detail from the DB is amazing!

http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/

http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/p65/
(more details about the P65+)

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
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hcubell
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« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2008, 09:18:29 AM »
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Quote from: clawery
Capture Integration was lucky to be the first to show the P65+ in the US. Please take a look at some of the test shots we shot. The detail from the DB is amazing!

http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/phase-one/

http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/p65/
(more details about the P65+)

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

Sign up for our Newsletter | Read Our Latest Newsletter

I have not been tempted till now to upgrade from 39 mp to 60mp, but the detail on the nasal hair of the old guy may change my mind. Brilliant vehicle for showcasing a $40K camera.
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Snook
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« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2008, 09:28:55 AM »
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Quote from: hcubell
I have not been tempted till now to upgrade from 39 mp to 60mp, but the detail on the nasal hair of the old guy may change my mind. Brilliant vehicle for showcasing a $40K camera.
Did you guys Over sharpen the files..?
The crops look really over sharpened...?
Does look nice.. I guess, if you really need all those megapixels...
Thanks for the information as usual
Snook
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stewarthemley
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« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2008, 09:38:52 AM »
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I'm interested in the high ISO claims for this back, ie, 800. Just how realistic is it? Yes, I know it depends on the user, subject, etc, but maybe a general guide could be offered? Eg, a comparison with 39 backs, which claim 400 (but I'm never happy over 100, would only use 200 as an emergency and 400 is not even a possibility). YMMV.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2008, 09:39:18 AM »
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We pushed sharpening a bit past defaults (also reduced the radius from defaults), and also included clarity (a new feature of 4.5 Pro). It's rough subject matter and this sharpening looked most appropriate to us (read: me) and of course shows off the back/lens best. We were very cognizant that sharpening is subjective and the choice of sharpening is critical for analyzing IQ.

That's why we included a raw file with which you can do your own sharpening and analysis.

I'm sure we'd all benefit if you want to DL the raw, apply your own sharpening (in C1 or elsewhere) and compare/contrast crops (our or your own).

Quote from: Snook
Did you guys Over sharpen the files..?
The crops look really over sharpened...?
Does look nice.. I guess, if you really need all those megapixels...
Thanks for the information as usual
Snook
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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Phase One IQ250 FAQ
Doug Peterson
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« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2008, 09:41:13 AM »
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Quote from: stewarthemley
I'm interested in the high ISO claims for this back, ie, 800. Just how realistic is it? Yes, I know it depends on the user, subject, etc, but maybe a general guide could be offered? Eg, a comparison with 39 backs, which claim 400 (but I'm never happy over 100, would only use 200 as an emergency and 400 is not even a possibility). YMMV.

Yep, so are we. But this is very dependent on firmware, and backs like this one with pre-production firmware are poor indications of high ISO performance.

Once final-production units ship to us we will definitely be testing them for ISO.

Doug

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
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« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 09:41:52 AM by dougpetersonci » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
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Phase One IQ250 FAQ
gwhitf
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« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2008, 10:07:44 AM »
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What hits me is: the very first images that you see from a new back or camera are really important. It's about that first impression. If I was Phase (or any maker) I'd make darn sure that the first posted images were stunning.

That guy ain't a cowboy.

When you look at a picture from a forty some thousand dollar back, and the first thing you think of is the smell of stale Pabst Blue Ribbon tallboys, I'm not sure that's the best sales approach.
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Christopher
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« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2008, 10:48:09 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
What hits me is: the very first images that you see from a new back or camera are really important. It's about that first impression. If I was Phase (or any maker) I'd make darn sure that the first posted images were stunning.

That guy ain't a cowboy.

When you look at a picture from a forty some thousand dollar back, and the first thing you think of is the smell of stale Pabst Blue Ribbon tallboys, I'm not sure that's the best sales approach.


We all know that the P65 or Leaf 10 are great in resolution and noise at ISO 50 and 100, but there is still no images from ISO 400 or 800. I mean shouldn't both backs ship short after Photokina ?
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2008, 10:57:00 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
What hits me is: the very first images that you see from a new back or camera are really important. It's about that first impression. If I was Phase (or any maker) I'd make darn sure that the first posted images were stunning.

That guy ain't a cowboy.

When you look at a picture from a forty some thousand dollar back, and the first thing you think of is the smell of stale Pabst Blue Ribbon tallboys, I'm not sure that's the best sales approach.

If you're looking for glossy sales pictures we can send you some large format bound sales materials or you can check out phaseone.com. You'll be looking at images with sharpening, noise reduction, skin-retouching, etc etc.

If you're looking for real-world images with raw files provided with which you can make real-world judgments of image quality then note that you're viewing the test section of our website provided as what I believe is a real value to the community.

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
Personal Portfolio
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hcubell
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« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2008, 11:00:18 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
That guy ain't a cowboy.

You are right. He is head of the department at Phase One that sources their LCDs.
 

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bradleygibson
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« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2008, 11:11:51 AM »
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I can't understand what the others are complaining about.  I understand that the model depicted in the photograph doesn't actually come with the back!

I appreciate the fact you've posted a P65+ raw file and shot a character with texture in an outdoor environment.

And I look forward to high ISO samples in the future.

Thanks, Doug,
Brad
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Snook
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« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2008, 11:30:40 AM »
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Quote from: hcubell
You are right. He is head of the department at Phase One that sources their LCDs.
LOL hahaha
That is funny..
Seriously and with out trying to sounds offensive,
When I first open the image a truly thought to myself..
This could have been shot with my little Leica Point and shoot.
I think everything shown on internet is way to hard to decide image quality.
About the Cowboy.. I also , coming from Miami, thought he looked like some Vagabond who found those clothes at the Salvation army..
He is no cowboy for sure.

I hope for you all at Phase they sell a lot of these backs.. I just don't see it happening in these tough times and haven't we gotten to a point of enough megapixels??
Time to work on the LCD, even though I was jumped on for saying this, and the lens for crying out loud.
Ashame that Phase did not change even a little bit the design, whether their old design works or not... It is a marketing 101 to revamp your product a little.

Why is Phase the only one NOT improving this...
 I do not give a Rat's @ss what others say.. I would like to see a better LCD and so would my clients....!

Snook


Would it be un-ethical to start a "Who would buy a P65+ and why?"
I seriously would like to know what market/photographer is going to NEED,not want, so many megapixels??
and going to pay Top premium oil$$$ for it.
Is Phase going to follow the others and lower their prices?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 11:32:35 AM by Snook » Logged
gwhitf
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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2008, 11:47:00 AM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
If you're looking for glossy sales pictures we can send you some large format bound sales materials or you can check out phaseone.com.

I"m just ribbing you, Doug.

But I do remember those early samples that Melvin S. shot, I think it was the 1ds2, and the AA filter was certainly showing itself (badly). It's just human nature that, when a new product comes out, you want it a very noticeable improvement over what you already own.

It will be interesting with the P65 -- kinda like that quote, "If you have to ask how much, then you can't afford it". I'm sure everyone has already decided if they'll upgrade to that back or not.

Still, what would be more useful to me, as a potential customer: Side by side views at 100%, at same magnification, between P45, P30 and P65, with no sharpening.

Oddly, much more than file quality, the main reason to upgrade to that back would be for a 100% unobstructed view of the viewfinder. No mask. That, and the ability to be using more chip, in terms of focus falloff, would be my main reasons to buy that.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2008, 12:28:08 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Oddly, much more than file quality, the main reason to upgrade to that back would be for a 100% unobstructed view of the viewfinder. No mask. That, and the ability to be using more chip, in terms of focus falloff, would be my main reasons to buy that.


Yes, I agree. It is true that relatively few polled respondents were requesting more resolution (although some were, to be sure). And yes, the LCD needs improvement. However, physically larger chips have always been heavily requested. Unfortunately with larger chips comes a larger price tag.

But price aside (and I know it's not easy to do that), I find this product to be a uniquely versatile product for a photographer. Many have focused on the megapixel count only.


*Unmatched Resolution (for some, this actually is very important):
- Particularly photographers who have been shooting multi-shot devices on product would certainly fall into this category.

*Unmatched Image Quality:
- Extremely high resolution also minimizes image quality issues that appear at lower resolutions (color artifacting, edge aliasing, moire, etc).

*Largest medium format lens coverage available:
- As mentioned, no masks to deal with, and wider coverage on wide lenses. Lenses are "true".

*Fast, sustained capture speeds:
- Makes this a very versatile product that can go from the highest quality table top product shot to many other applications which require continuous, fast capture rates.

*High ISO Range:
- With the Sensor + technology, light gathering will be dramatically enhanced, meaning this product becomes usable in varied lighting situations.

*Variable Resolution:
- Ability to adjust output sizes with full lens coverage is a unique and valuable feature.

Naturally there is a price tag to match this, but I find the features and the potential of the P65+ to be unique, above and beyond the megapixels.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Steve Hendrix
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gwhitf
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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2008, 12:40:02 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Yes, I agree. It is true that relatively few polled respondents were requesting more resolution (although some were, to be sure).

There is one other important benefit of the large file size of these kinds of backs, and that is retouching for reproduction. I know that many people say, "The 1ds3 is just fine for my repro needs", and that's true for a lot of people. But if you're doing doing lots of extensive retouching, ie flying things in, or swapping heads, there is a benefit in doing that retouching at 200% size or so. Then, when you rez down for the repro size, any weird edges get lost in the mix, in a good way.

I can remember back to film days, when I'd see a Dye Transfer ordered from one of my images. They'd always order the Dye at 200% of repro size, so that the retouch edges would not be so noticeable at 100%. Maybe that Anthony R can speak to this more.

I just know it's scary, doing extensive retouch, when you're working right at the repro size. The retouch had been be perfect, because everything will show.

Still, even after all that, the big question for me is: How different is the P65+ from the P45+, even if the P45+ had to be rezzed up slightly? Is there a ten thousand dollar difference?
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2008, 01:10:07 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
There is one other important benefit of the large file size of these kinds of backs, and that is retouching for reproduction. I know that many people say, "The 1ds3 is just fine for my repro needs", and that's true for a lot of people. But if you're doing doing lots of extensive retouching, ie flying things in, or swapping heads, there is a benefit in doing that retouching at 200% size or so. Then, when you rez down for the repro size, any weird edges get lost in the mix, in a good way.

I can remember back to film days, when I'd see a Dye Transfer ordered from one of my images. They'd always order the Dye at 200% of repro size, so that the retouch edges would not be so noticeable at 100%. Maybe that Anthony R can speak to this more.

I just know it's scary, doing extensive retouch, when you're working right at the repro size. The retouch had been be perfect, because everything will show.

Still, even after all that, the big question for me is: How different is the P65+ from the P45+, even if the P45+ had to be rezzed up slightly? Is there a ten thousand dollar difference?

I'm sure we'll see some comparative tests soon. Whether that resolution difference alone would be worth the $10K is hard to say. But that along with the faster shooting speed (1.0 FPS vs 1.5 FPS - and half a second can be a long time for some shooters), the better high ISO performance and the better lens/viewfinder coverage make a more compelling argument for those who are looking for more benefits than just pure resolution.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Steve Hendrix
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simplify
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2008, 01:12:11 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Still, even after all that, the big question for me is: How different is the P65+ from the P45+, even if the P45+ had to be rezzed up slightly? Is there a ten thousand dollar difference?


What kind of long exposures can the P65+ handle?  Can it go up to an hour like my P45+?


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gwhitf
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2008, 01:13:47 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
the better high ISO performance and the better lens/viewfinder coverage make a more compelling argument for those who are looking for more benefits than just pure resolution.

Funny, we heard a lot of these promises from Phase when the Plus series was introduced. That the P45+ was going to be better ISO, and better LCD, and better file quality.

I took delivery on the P45+, and then returned it. I saw very little if ANY difference between the Plus and the Non-Plus.

So yes, it better be a LOT better to justify ten grand.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2008, 01:15:55 PM »
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Quote from: simplify
What kind of long exposures can the P65+ handle?  Can it go up to an hour like my P45+?

No, currently the P65+ is rated at 1 minute maximum. Whether that can be expanded at some point remains to be seen, but we have not published any indication of that yet. So, long exposure benefits favor the P45+.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2008, 01:27:57 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Funny, we heard a lot of these promises from Phase when the Plus series was introduced. That the P45+ was going to be better ISO, and better LCD, and better file quality.

I took delivery on the P45+, and then returned it. I saw very little if ANY difference between the Plus and the Non-Plus.

So yes, it better be a LOT better to justify ten grand.


The non-subjective improvements of the plus included dramatically long exposure times and sustained and faster capture rates. While the LCD screen, high ISO and dynamic range were certainly improved, the amount of improvement was judged subjectively thus the mileage varied as a result.

The P65+ offers non-subjective improvements with respect to capture rate, physical sensor size, and resolution. It will also offer expanded dynamic range, expanded ISO, variable resolution via Sensor + technology, as well as potential future features also via Sensor + technology. Some of those aspects will again be subjective and yes, judged accordingly. The non plus and plus backs utilize the same sensor. This is a completely brand new sensor, so the potential for more objective improvement is real and promising.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Direct: 404.543.8475
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