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Author Topic: Phase One P65+  (Read 30138 times)
woof75
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« Reply #120 on: November 03, 2008, 12:42:26 PM »
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Quote from: EricWHiss
Hmmm...   Carsten, I think you're onto something here when you hint that the arguments about the superiority of whatever lens system is incomplete.  Anyone that reads these threads might be mislead by a few strongly opinionated or even perhaps financially biased users.  It's like anything else - you must test it for yourself to know for certain if a product will meet your own needs.  And I certainly would not trust any forum opinion that can not be backed up with the inclusion of the test images and test methodology.  

There are a certain few posters that drop it to this forum and others, post very lovingly about an optic or other piece of gear then wait a few weeks and put it up for sale in the buy and sell forums. Usually its a piece of gear they just bought 'low' on ebay and are now trying to sell 'high'.   If you're astute you can pick them out by just noticing that the main forum they post in is the buy and sell and typically these traders post very few actual photographic images or if they do post a photo its of a wall calendar or a picture of a box from some other piece of gear.

Eh hem, that was pointed at me was it?
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jmvdigital
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« Reply #121 on: November 03, 2008, 12:42:58 PM »
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Quote from: AlexLF
TMax, Rainer_V, thanks guys. I understand the quality of information contained by slide and digital. It's just at the moment the current models are 50 or 60, not 31/39...

But I have a question - so, why then to upgrade at all? No, really. What is the reason for people then to upgrade (and manufacture) to 50 and 60 megapixel backs? What aspect of photography gets better? I personally treat it only as a new alternative to my old LF gear without resolution compromise.


Actually Alex, the current models for both Phase One and Hassy include 31 and 39mp. The P25+ (22mp) P30+ (31.6mp), and the P45+ (39mp) are still very current. The P65+ is an addition to the P+ line and only just released. Same goes for the H3DII line. It's not a one back per company type of thing. The P45+ is not a newer/upgraded model than the P30+, it just has different features and price point is sold right along with all the other in the line.

-J
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 12:44:22 PM by jmvdigital » Logged

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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #122 on: November 03, 2008, 01:13:40 PM »
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Quote from: carstenw
Jack has debunked the superiority of the V glass, at least for himself (I personally trust him), but I guess there is more to do before concluding that the Mamiya lenses are "at least the equal to anything".

I am not saying that they aren't, I am just saying that there appears to be nothing available to support that statement, beyond that single test and Jack's tests.

Carsten,

I know you realize this, but I want to clarify for the posterity of this thread, *my* claim is only for the specific Hassy CF and F/FE "Zeiss" lenses I mentioned.  What I think is the more important concept for folks to grasp is that just because it says "Made by Zeiss" on it doesn't necessarily mean it will be magically better than something made by "Anybody Else" including "Mamiya" -- that is the "myth" I was questioning...   Also understand that even though the Hassy lenses I mentioned did not resolve as much as the Mamiya equivalents, I am not implying in any way they are inferior optics.  

Hope that clarifies,
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 01:19:55 PM by Jack Flesher » Logged

TMARK
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« Reply #123 on: November 03, 2008, 01:26:38 PM »
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Quote from: AlexLF
TMax, Rainer_V, thanks guys. I understand the quality of information contained by slide and digital. It's just at the moment the current models are 50 or 60, not 31/39...

But I have a question - so, why then to upgrade at all? No, really. What is the reason for people then to upgrade (and manufacture) to 50 and 60 megapixel backs? What aspect of photography gets better? I personally treat it only as a new alternative to my old LF gear without resolution compromise.

The answer is . . . I don't.  I saw the P65 release and decided to exit the market.  60 megapixels and $42k is not what the market demands, at least not my market.  I sold my P30+.  I loved it.  I think the IQ is close to 4x5 film.  It was awesome.  But I think that digital has too many draw backs and is too expensive to justify owning an MFDB, at least when my editorial clients are even more broke this year than last year, or are closing their doors, and my money clients pay for my rentals.  Why own?  There are good reasons to own, but I think I'm covered.  Now that 22 mpx backs are going for between $5k and $8k on the used market, I'll get one.  In the mean time, I rent and shoot film, or (gasp) shoot a 5D.
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woof75
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« Reply #124 on: November 03, 2008, 01:33:20 PM »
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Quote from: TMARK
The answer is . . . I don't.  I saw the P65 release and decided to exit the market.  60 megapixels and $42k is not what the market demands, at least not my market.  I sold my P30+.  I loved it.  I think the IQ is close to 4x5 film.  It was awesome.  But I think that digital has too many draw backs and is too expensive to justify owning an MFDB, at least when my editorial clients are even more broke this year than last year, or are closing their doors, and my money clients pay for my rentals.  Why own?  There are good reasons to own, but I think I'm covered.  Now that 22 mpx backs are going for between $5k and $8k on the used market, I'll get one.  In the mean time, I rent and shoot film, or (gasp) shoot a 5D.

Yes, there's some great deals on lower pixel backs, I guess I'm going to have to use my P21 till it's wheels fall off as it's resale value must be quite low. Fine by me. With the new C1 4.5.1 it is better than ever.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 01:33:45 PM by woof75 » Logged
TMARK
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« Reply #125 on: November 03, 2008, 01:39:52 PM »
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Quote from: woof75
Yes, there's some great deals on lower pixel backs, I guess I'm going to have to use my P21 till it's wheels fall off as it's resale value must be quite low. Fine by me. With the new C1 4.5.1 it is better than ever.

The P21, Aptus 17 are great deals right now.  The P21 makes a really nice file.  All a people shooter really needs. Really, really great backs.  P25 and Aptus 22 backs can be had cheap.  Apparently Sinar is selling the 54LV back, w/o adapter, for about $10k.  A new Leaf 54s back, the fastest shooting back around, sells for about $10k new, if you ask.  So, there should be even better deals on these backs come January, in the depths of the recession.

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EricWHiss
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« Reply #126 on: November 03, 2008, 01:48:33 PM »
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Quote from: woof75
Eh hem, that was pointed at me was it?

No, no not you       My post was more of general "caveat emptor" type of post.  There are several (and really just one in particular) traders who do a disservice to the photo community by posting inaccurate or faulty claims about how great a lens or piece of gear is only for their own self serving interests of driving up demand just prior to their sale.  I want to point out that I am also not referring to  any of the dealers or manufactures reps that frequent these boards.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 01:57:43 PM by EricWHiss » Logged

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Christopher
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« Reply #127 on: November 03, 2008, 02:20:21 PM »
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Quote from: TMARK
The P21, Aptus 17 are great deals right now.  The P21 makes a really nice file.  All a people shooter really needs. Really, really great backs.  P25 and Aptus 22 backs can be had cheap.  Apparently Sinar is selling the 54LV back, w/o adapter, for about $10k.  A new Leaf 54s back, the fastest shooting back around, sells for about $10k new, if you ask.  So, there should be even better deals on these backs come January, in the depths of the recession.

And there is a camera named 5D Mark II which will make wonderful images for less than $3k new and there is a Sony which makes great images for under $3k. Now don't come back to me with the MFDB look SOOOO fucking better and different, I have own both a MFDB and DSLR and yes there are differences, but in the End the images matters 1000 times more than the tiny difference between both systems.

Sorry had to say it :-P
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TMARK
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« Reply #128 on: November 03, 2008, 02:35:15 PM »
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Quote from: Christopher
And there is a camera named 5D Mark II which will make wonderful images for less than $3k new and there is a Sony which makes great images for under $3k. Now don't come back to me with the MFDB look SOOOO fucking better and different, I have own both a MFDB and DSLR and yes there are differences, but in the End the images matters 1000 times more than the tiny difference between both systems.

Sorry had to say it :-P

Down boy.

First off, I never said anything to contradict your statement.  I agree, which is (one of the reasons) why I sold my MFDB. I can get the "look" by shooting film and clients pay for rentals if an MFDB is necessary.

No sorry needed, my partner and I have four 5Dmk2s on order.  Yes, four.  My partner and I have a production company.  We have a raft of Sony EX1 and EX3s, and a Red 1.  These 5d2s might open up new avenues to us.

Yes, there is something about MFDB that is different.  At $5k USD, what the fuck, why not.  I looked at the P30+ sitting on the shelf, unused, and thought:  why not get rid of this thing, the whole industry is about the crash, and I'm mainly shooting video now, why not free up the capital for something else?  At $7k, its no bug deal.
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woof75
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« Reply #129 on: November 03, 2008, 02:48:04 PM »
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Quote from: Christopher
And there is a camera named 5D Mark II which will make wonderful images for less than $3k new and there is a Sony which makes great images for under $3k. Now don't come back to me with the MFDB look SOOOO fucking better and different, I have own both a MFDB and DSLR and yes there are differences, but in the End the images matters 1000 times more than the tiny difference between both systems.

Sorry had to say it :-P

Goya wouldn't be Goya if his blacks weren't quite so black though....
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AlexLF
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« Reply #130 on: November 03, 2008, 03:50:22 PM »
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Ok, we started about MFDB upgrade but ended up with downgrade to 5DMkII

But seriously, every business requires the most effective tools. That said, it's obvious that some use 5DMkII and others MFDB. Some use both. Business photographers take pics for clients and others do this for their own need of creativity and self-expression. (Of course, there is combination.) That's why we argue I guess on this topic.
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carstenw
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« Reply #131 on: November 03, 2008, 04:11:28 PM »
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Quote from: EricWHiss
Hmmm...   Carsten, I think you're onto something here when you hint that the arguments about the superiority of whatever lens system is incomplete.  Anyone that reads these threads might be mislead by a few strongly opinionated or even perhaps financially biased users.  It's like anything else - you must test it for yourself to know for certain if a product will meet your own needs.  And I certainly would not trust any forum opinion that can not be backed up with the inclusion of the test images and test methodology.

In the interest of full disclosure, I should say that my real motivation is protecting my Contax 645 35mm, 80mm and 120mm Macro against (unfair) attacks. I am willing to bow to fact, but not to opinion  I am as guilty as anyone of wanting what I chose to be the best.

Jack, good points; taken. It is easy to forget that it isn't all about sharpness. I do love my 500C w/ chrome 80/2.8, even if it isn't loved by anyone else.

Tmark, watch out for rolling shutter...

Anyway, we are horribly off topic here.

How about that P65+? So, how many people are planning to buy, beg or steal one (or rent)?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 04:16:46 PM by carstenw » Logged

woof75
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« Reply #132 on: November 03, 2008, 04:24:49 PM »
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Quote from: carstenw
In the interest of full disclosure, I should say that my real motivation is protecting my Contax 645 35mm, 80mm and 120mm Macro against (unfair) attacks.

My camera never seems to get too upset never mind what people say to it or about it, they generally have fairly thick skins you know.
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carstenw
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« Reply #133 on: November 03, 2008, 04:32:58 PM »
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Quote from: woof75
My camera never seems to get too upset never mind what people say to it or about it, they generally have fairly thick skins you know.

Especially the older Hassies  But watch out for the photographers. Those guys are crazy sensitive!
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TMARK
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« Reply #134 on: November 03, 2008, 05:46:36 PM »
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Quote from: carstenw
In the interest of full disclosure, I should say that my real motivation is protecting my Contax 645 35mm, 80mm and 120mm Macro against (unfair) attacks. I am willing to bow to fact, but not to opinion  I am as guilty as anyone of wanting what I chose to be the best.

Jack, good points; taken. It is easy to forget that it isn't all about sharpness. I do love my 500C w/ chrome 80/2.8, even if it isn't loved by anyone else.

Tmark, watch out for rolling shutter...

Anyway, we are horribly off topic here.

How about that P65+? So, how many people are planning to buy, beg or steal one (or rent)?

Every motion cam we have has a rolling shutter issue if we whip-pan.  The Red has the issue, the Sonys have the issue.  We don't whip-pan much because we don't shoot docs and we are all over 28 years old.  The only way to avoid the rolling shutter issue in whip-pans is to turn it off!  


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macfly
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« Reply #135 on: November 03, 2008, 08:51:58 PM »
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Quote from: foto-z
I was wondering the same, as you seemed to love the Mamiya RZ and that is about as 'agricultural' as these medium format SLRs get.

The RZ is more industrial to me than agricultural, it is heavy, solid and very well made. The Sinar/Rollie camera is just poorly conceived and made, like an old piece of farm equipment rather than a fine scientific instrument.

The question I asked here went unanswered, and reading the threads that followed I think I jumped into the wrong discussion in the wrong place.
Good luck to you all, over and out.
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Andrew Macpherson
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« Reply #136 on: November 03, 2008, 09:29:52 PM »
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Dear macfly,

... and your questions were/are...?

I seem to find none, simply and only your opinion about a camera design which has been praised by all owing and using it. There is nothing to answer to this, you have the right to have your own opinion, even against the vast majority.

But you are right also, this is the wrong thread anyway.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: macfly
The RZ is more industrial to me than agricultural, it is heavy, solid and very well made. The Sinar/Rollie camera is just poorly conceived and made, like an old piece of farm equipment rather than a fine scientific instrument.

The question I asked here went unanswered, and reading the threads that followed I think I jumped into the wrong discussion in the wrong place.
Good luck to you all, over and out.
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Thierry Hagenauer
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« Reply #137 on: November 03, 2008, 09:38:59 PM »
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Quote from: woof75
You don't need anything like 60mp to make files that big, 30 would do it so easily, MF files up res so well it's pretty amazing. (edit) I guess i just repeated the guy above. It is true though.

From my personal experience printing my own art work, I find that 33mp has about the quality of 6x7 film depending on camera, but no way in hell it reaches 4x5 film.
It provides cleaner files but at the expense of a certain tonality.
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carstenw
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« Reply #138 on: November 04, 2008, 05:30:02 AM »
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Quote from: TMARK
Every motion cam we have has a rolling shutter issue if we whip-pan.  The Red has the issue, the Sonys have the issue.  We don't whip-pan much because we don't shoot docs and we are all over 28 years old.  The only way to avoid the rolling shutter issue in whip-pans is to turn it off!

Rolling shutter is dramatically worse when combined with CMOS technology though. The line-by-line readout adds to the effect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qC0_nIUq9s

And that is a Canon camcorder! CCD does much better here, leaving only the shutter effect. I would test the 5D2 carefully before committing to it as a video camera.
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TMARK
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« Reply #139 on: November 04, 2008, 09:40:01 AM »
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Quote from: carstenw
Rolling shutter is dramatically worse when combined with CMOS technology though. The line-by-line readout adds to the effect:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qC0_nIUq9s

And that is a Canon camcorder! CCD does much better here, leaving only the shutter effect. I would test the 5D2 carefully before committing to it as a video camera.

We'll see when we get them, but I don't see it as a potential problem for how we work.  We block shots, usually use tripods, etc.  We have never planned a whip-pan shot, and we only shoot planned shots.  We're not making skateboard videos.  We are buying the 5dmk2's to use as a still camera (for me) and as B or C camera for cut aways.  We'll see how well the 5Dmk2 video hangs together with the Red and Sonys.  

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