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Author Topic: Phase One P65+  (Read 30381 times)
Dustbak
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2008, 02:15:18 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
*Unmatched Resolution (for some, this actually is very important):
- Particularly photographers who have been shooting multi-shot devices on product would certainly fall into this category.

*Unmatched Image Quality:
- Extremely high resolution also minimizes image quality issues that appear at lower resolutions (color artifacting, edge aliasing, moire, etc).

Naturally there is a price tag to match this, but I find the features and the potential of the P65+ to be unique, above and beyond the megapixels.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One

To go deeper into this. Do you think the added resolution is a match for a 39MP multishot, considering color artifacting, CA at the edges  & moire?

Problem for product with a larger chip is the even smaller DoF. Even 37x49 is sometimes already difficult to get enough without focus blending (which is not ideal). Sure you can get a bit more distance to get more DoF but you will end up having to crop getting you again closer to the same as the 39MP back you are giving.

I am very sceptical it would be a good substitute for a 39MP MS back. The things it has going for it; You can downsize to obscure some misery & you don't have to do 4shots but if that will be enough? My 16MP MS back would outperform my 39MP single shot at times...
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 02:15:53 PM by Dustbak » Logged
Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2008, 02:24:24 PM »
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Quote from: Dustbak
To go deeper into this. Do you think the added resolution is a match for a 39MP multishot, considering color artifacting, CA at the edges  & moire?

Problem for product with a larger chip is the even smaller DoF. Even 37x49 is sometimes already difficult to get enough without focus blending (which is not ideal). Sure you can get a bit more distance to get more DoF but you will end up having to crop getting you again closer to the same as the 39MP back you are giving.

I am very sceptical it would be a good substitute for a 39MP MS back. The things it has going for it; You can downsize to obscure some misery & you don't have to do 4shots but if that will be enough? My 16MP MS back would outperform my 39MP single shot at times...

I've done some tests in the past with single and multi-shots from my experience selling them. What I found was that as resolution gets higher, the multi-shot advantage is diminished. The difference between 6MP/11MP/16MP single and multi was night and day. At 22MP I started to see the differences begin to shrink, and at 30+ megapixel on many shots I would have to point out where the customer would need to look to see the difference - it wasn't as obvious, though it was there. Of course we have not done comparisons yet with the P65+, but I hope to soon and I expect that trend to continue.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Steve Hendrix
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Dustbak
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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2008, 02:26:47 PM »
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Ah.... now you are telling me, I expect my new 39MS back in tomorrow!

BTW. I wonder whether this also applies to garments. I found it was almost impossible to do those with the single 39 without severely being punished with color shifts and moire now and than.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 02:29:00 PM by Dustbak » Logged
jjj
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« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2008, 02:45:46 PM »
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I had a brief play with a 65+ last week.  During this test I took a shot by mistake where the exposure was set for the flash heads and the subject was not illuminated by them, so it was dreadfully underexposed, nearly black in fact. Though after a quick tweak in Capture 1, the person was not only clearly visible but the skin tone/texture was pretty good quality too.  Very impressive. I should add, that this was at 50 ISO.
I also did some shots at higher ISOs and although not brilliant, they were way, way better than on the H3D-39 I last used at a high ISO on and that was 400ISO, not the 800ISO I tried here. Bit I was told that this body was not yet finished and there was more tweaking to be done. So promising.
Underexposure at high ISOs led to the funny grain clumping/artifacting I also experienced on the H3D, not as bad, but still present.
I like to see how well kit does when conditions are not optimum as when shooting outside of studios, that may well be the case as I have experienced!
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rethmeier
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« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2008, 02:49:55 PM »
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Quick question.
Is the reason for a limit of 1 minute exposure time the DALSA sensor?
From my memory the P-65+ is using a newly developed DALSA sensor.
All the other P-series Phase backs are using Kodak sensors and they handle long exposures better.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Regards,
Willem
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Willem Rethmeier
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gwhitf
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« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2008, 03:12:55 PM »
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Dumb question -- is it possible to design a back that's "full frame 645", similar to the Hassie 50 or P65+, but you could set it not to shoot a gigantic file? I desire full frame viewfinder, but I want to work tethered with a MacBookPro, and not have the file size choke the laptop, thus forcing me to drag around a tower. Ideal file size, about 28-31MP.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 03:13:25 PM by gwhitf » Logged
Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2008, 03:24:44 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Dumb question -- is it possible to design a back that's "full frame 645", similar to the Hassie 50 or P65+, but you could set it not to shoot a gigantic file? I desire full frame viewfinder, but I want to work tethered with a MacBookPro, and not have the file size choke the laptop, thus forcing me to drag around a tower. Ideal file size, about 28-31MP.

That's what I've been dreaming of (out loud) for some time. A 645 sized 30 MP chip. Seems just right.
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2008, 03:24:45 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Dumb question -- is it possible to design a back that's "full frame 645", similar to the Hassie 50 or P65+, but you could set it not to shoot a gigantic file? I desire full frame viewfinder, but I want to work tethered with a MacBookPro, and not have the file size choke the laptop, thus forcing me to drag around a tower. Ideal file size, about 28-31MP.


Perhaps there are technical reasons why these larger sensors also have more resolution, smaller photosites, or perhaps sales volume is behind it.

As 35mm continues to trend upward, for some anyway, the advantage of more resolution is a buying issue. More resolution sells, period. Case in point, as soon as 39MP sensors hit the market, 22MP sensor sales dried up, even though the cost was significantly lowered. The thought of a 645 size sensor with 9 or 12 micron sites sounds exciting, but it also gives up the benefits of resolution, which include minimizing negaitive issues like color artifacting, aliasing, and moire (and associated) patterns.

The P65+ addresses the issue by providing the benefits of the resolution but allowing you to control that resolution to suit your workflow with the sensor + technology.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Steve Hendrix
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heinrichvoelkel
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« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2008, 03:35:59 PM »
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steve, what about wifi? phase one was talking about it before!!!
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pss
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« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2008, 03:37:33 PM »
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Quote from: foto-z
That's what I've been dreaming of (out loud) for some time. A 645 sized 30 MP chip. Seems just right.


that is why the P65 is so interesting...they said from the start that you can shoot it at 30mpix if you want....and i believe the cleaner high iso is only possible with smaller file sizes (pixel binning or such).....i doubt i would ever shoot that back above 30mpix but is great to be able to get mf files at 800 iso at 30mpix.....but i guess we will have to wait and see about that....

the other thing i was excited about (and what the samples show really well, only brutal sun can do that) is the high DR which this back really seems to have....white beard to deep shade under the hat at high sun and everything has detail....very impressive.....

this really takes things to a new level....
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gwhitf
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« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2008, 03:41:42 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
More resolution sells, period.

Everything comes to an end, young man. Please tell the higher ups that. While it might be possible to keep making larger chips, there will come a point when reality hits most people, and they'll say "enough is enough".

We have to store this stuff.

We have to process this stuff.

Not everyone wants to drag around a Tech and a Tower for every single image that they make.

I can't believe that I'm agreeing with that FotoZ guy on anything, but yes, a full frame 645 viewfinder, couple with a file size around 31MPs, seem to be a great combination.

So that's what I want to know -- is it even physically possible to have 31mp occupy the physical space of a full frame 645? I know (or care) nothing about photosites or microns. But if that P65+ had an option to set it to about 31MP, at one frame per second, you'd have a winner. Especially if you could do some "price binning" too. If everyone promised to shoot it at only 31MP, then maybe the price could be fractionized too.
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rethmeier
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« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2008, 03:43:04 PM »
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Willem Rethmeier
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« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2008, 03:44:07 PM »
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Quote from: pss
the other thing i was excited about (and what the samples show really well, only brutal sun can do that) is the high DR which this back really seems to have....white beard to deep shade under the hat at high sun and everything has detail....very impressive.....

this really takes things to a new level....


That's the DALSA sensor for you at work!

The Leaf AF 10 also uses a DALSA


Cheers,

Willem.
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Willem Rethmeier
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2008, 04:17:47 PM »
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Quote from: pss
white beard to deep shade under the hat at high sun and everything has detail....very impressive.....

Except we don't know what surfaces were around providing fill light. You really can't judge DR accurately from someone else's photo.
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jmboss
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« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2008, 04:30:17 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
I can't believe that I'm agreeing with that FotoZ guy on anything, but yes, a full frame 645 viewfinder, couple with a file size around 31MPs, seem to be a great combination.

So that's what I want to know -- is it even physically possible to have 31mp occupy the physical space of a full frame 645? I know (or care) nothing about photosites or microns.

Yes, it is physically possible. Heck, in the mid 1990's, Dicomed was one of the big players in the digital photography equipment biz. They produced a full frame 6x6 16MP digital back. Granted it was incredibly expensive ($56K) and had big heat issues and a crummy SCSI interface, but it is an example of what is possible. It also put Dicomed out of business.

I think Kodak or Dalsa, (or Canon or Sony?) certainly have the technical ability to manufacture such a true full frame chip in the 645 or even 6x6 format. The big question is whether Phase One, Leaf, Sinar, Hasselblad (Canon, Sony?) would be able radically alter their marketing strategies to sell them.

I believe such a Digital Back in the 30MP range at a price point around $20K would be a all time best seller, but the MFDB makers are very deeply entrenched on a different path. The Mega Pixel number will continue to be the most important marketing feature for any digital camera product.  And for the Medium Format camera market that Mega Pixel number has to continue to be sufficiently higher than the "35mm" sensor cameras to spearhead sales......................................

IMHO,

Joe B.
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2008, 04:45:21 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
I can't believe that I'm agreeing with that FotoZ guy on anything

You were bound to get something right sooner or later
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RobertJ
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« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2008, 04:45:32 PM »
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This back has huge potential for amazing files.  Wowzers.

Can you guys say which camera/lens was used for the sample file?
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2008, 05:19:49 PM »
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Quote from: foto-z
Except we don't know what surfaces were around providing fill light. You really can't judge DR accurately from someone else's photo.

Absolutely true. For the record though he was in front of a red brick wall with no fill lights or reflectors. The ground was light gray sidewalk, so obviously that provided some degree of fill, but not much.

If I have the chance to do all the leg work I'll try to post a shot looking out down the street to see how slow we could hand-hold the 80mm and stay 100% sharp. That image shows a lot of open and closed shadows which should allow a better diagnosis of the DR of the back, but given that it's a really really boring picture and that I shot it by itself (without another back/slr to compare it to) I'm sure my effort would garner negative comments and complaints.

Quote from: T-1000
This back has huge potential for amazing files.  Wowzers.

Can you guys say which camera/lens was used for the sample file?

The metadata tab (an 'i' in a circle) in Capture One 4.5 Pro should display the camera/lens etc. In this case:
 - Phase One 645 AFD @ 1/200th sec [hand held with good shooting posture]
 - Phase One 80mm lens @ f/6.3
 - Phase One P65+ @ ISO 50

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
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« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2008, 05:21:53 PM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Everything comes to an end, young man. Please tell the higher ups that. While it might be possible to keep making larger chips, there will come a point when reality hits most people, and they'll say "enough is enough".

We have to store this stuff.

We have to process this stuff.

Not everyone wants to drag around a Tech and a Tower for every single image that they make.

I can't believe that I'm agreeing with that FotoZ guy on anything, but yes, a full frame 645 viewfinder, couple with a file size around 31MPs, seem to be a great combination.

So that's what I want to know -- is it even physically possible to have 31mp occupy the physical space of a full frame 645? I know (or care) nothing about photosites or microns. But if that P65+ had an option to set it to about 31MP, at one frame per second, you'd have a winner. Especially if you could do some "price binning" too. If everyone promised to shoot it at only 31MP, then maybe the price could be fractionized too.

from everything I have seen, most photographers asked for higher iso, better lcd, bug free fast software, larger frame size and lower price.

right now this product has hit only one of the 5 top requests and for the landscape/architecture guys only goes to 1 minute exposures.

now before someone jumps at the 60mpx thing, does anybody here ever have a client that has asked for more resolution that what your 31 or 39 mega pixel back delivers?

ever?  and if so is this aimed at the still life 39 mega pixel multi shot guys, because I would think those photographers are pretty much covered at this point.

what I have a hard time understanding with these type of early demonstrations is that the firmware is still not in it's final stages.  I think this takes a lot of credibility away from the product.

somehow, someday medium format might actually deliver a product that on the day of the demonstration hits on all cylinders with the software, firmware, lenses, accessories . . . everything in place.




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H1/A75 Guy
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« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2008, 06:00:34 PM »
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Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
This is a completely brand new sensor, so the potential for more objective improvement is real and promising.
The Phase/Dalsa sensor is more than likely a repackaged 'AFi 10' sensor with 6 microns. The truth will lie in the camera firmware and the software processing program.

David
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