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Author Topic: Sony A900 vs Hassy H3 vs Mamiya AFDiii  (Read 27035 times)
design_freak
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« Reply #60 on: November 18, 2008, 09:56:47 AM »
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Quote from: krystian maj
besides all responds: I've been there durning this test. all the results you have to split by yourself. The mamiya back is an old demo, overheated (you can it clearly see on ISO400) and the raws were developed by photoshop, not a mamiya digital studio. hassy? forget it - all the time problems with software, monits "pull out the cable", "remove the lens", "remove the battery". damn, one of the worst cameras i've ever have. and one more thing: people who made and published this article, are sony alpha's fans. what can i add? if you have any other questions about this test: please feel free to ask.

Hello Krystian,
I have some questions about Hasselblad H3DII39:
What kind of computer was used during the test? MAC or PC? Flexcolor or Phocus? (version) Why they export files to dng? They use graycard to whitebalance or not? Anybody work with this camera ever? I ask because, I think that I know what happen.
 I don't understand why photographer compare DOF between MFDB and A900  ( a900 had f16   Mamiya and Hassy had f11) If we get 8"x 10" camera with f11 and compare to MF we will get different DOF, but who want to do this if everybody know that DOF is different in different type of cameras (35mm, MF, LF). It's pure mathematic.  

Br

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krystian maj
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« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2008, 08:35:08 AM »
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Hi Freak
In studio it was Sony Vaio, with Phocus installed. Add the files went o dng, to open them the same way in photoshop. Not all the time, but we're working with sekonic c-500 colormeter. I did not process this files, so don't know to much since we've left the studio. It was the first touch of the author with digital hassie and mamiya (what about the phocus, we've got it installed on computer by one of the hassie tech guys).
I've no idea why he mentoned dof, also few other things. My personal opinion about this confrontation is different than the authors conslusion, but well - i didn't write that.


Quote from: design_freak
Hello Krystian,
I have some questions about Hasselblad H3DII39:
What kind of computer was used during the test? MAC or PC? Flexcolor or Phocus? (version) Why they export files to dng? They use graycard to whitebalance or not? Anybody work with this camera ever? I ask because, I think that I know what happen.
 I don't understand why photographer compare DOF between MFDB and A900  ( a900 had f16   Mamiya and Hassy had f11) If we get 8"x 10" camera with f11 and compare to MF we will get different DOF, but who want to do this if everybody know that DOF is different in different type of cameras (35mm, MF, LF). It's pure mathematic.  

Br

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stewarthemley
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« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2008, 08:50:58 AM »
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Quote from: krystian maj
In studio it was Sony Vaio, with Phocus installed.  (what about the phocus, we've got it installed on computer by one of the hassie tech guys).

Er, Phocus is not yet released for pc and Sony Vaio is not a Mac. Are you saying the "hassie tech guys" installed a pc version of Phocus on the Sony? Were they really employees of Hasselblad (if so, any chance of names as I know a few people there) or simply "techs" claiming some specialist Hasselbled knowledge. Sorry if this sounds accusing but some bits just don't add up.
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Carsten W
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« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2008, 10:45:51 AM »
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Quote from: stewarthemley
Er, Phocus is not yet released for pc and Sony Vaio is not a Mac. Are you saying the "hassie tech guys" installed a pc version of Phocus on the Sony? Were they really employees of Hasselblad (if so, any chance of names as I know a few people there) or simply "techs" claiming some specialist Hasselbled knowledge. Sorry if this sounds accusing but some bits just don't add up.

Also, as we learned in another thread, Phocus is required for DNG export, and the DAC mods cannot be applied (possibly unless Flex was used?), so you were not getting max quality from the Hasselblad.
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design_freak
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« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2008, 05:48:45 PM »
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Thanks Krystian,
So it was PC  ( Flexcolor)
Now I am 100% sure what happened. The camera was borrowed from our company. Uploaded was the latest firmware in this camera. The photographer has used the  Flexcolor, which uses an earlier version of the firmware. This explains the problems with the hardware.In the test, we read that delaying the shutter is so great that makes it impossible to work with this camera.  The delay time can be set in the camera, it is important to eliminate vibration and obtain a sharp photographs of the hand with longer exposure times. Our company borrow the equipment a few years, so we were surprised by reading this test. Article certainly sponsored by Sony. May be cheap but effective way to the advert. Too bad that does not told for what purpose the equipment is rented. Help our company would be obvious.

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TMARK
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« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2008, 07:55:30 PM »
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Quote from: design_freak
Thanks Krystian,
So it was PC  ( Flexcolor)
Now I am 100% sure what happened. The camera was borrowed from our company. Uploaded was the latest firmware in this camera. The photographer has used the  Flexcolor, which uses an earlier version of the firmware. This explains the problems with the hardware.In the test, we read that delaying the shutter is so great that makes it impossible to work with this camera.  The delay time can be set in the camera, it is important to eliminate vibration and obtain a sharp photographs of the hand with longer exposure times. Our company borrow the equipment a few years, so we were surprised by reading this test. Article certainly sponsored by Sony. May be cheap but effective way to the advert. Too bad that does not told for what purpose the equipment is rented. Help our company would be obvious.

Best regards,

Design Freak
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Hey just a heads up, but one shouldn't disparage another company, i.e., by declaring that Sony sponsored the obviously flawed and biased test.  In the US its called Unfair Competition.  It has a different name in the EU, but most definately exists.

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krystian maj
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« Reply #66 on: November 20, 2008, 02:19:03 AM »
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Very [possible, thanks for clearing it up. Hassie is not my system, i prefer mamiya so i don't know it very well but in fact they should if're making tests like this.

Quote from: design_freak
Article certainly sponsored by Sony.

Known from the first read.
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design_freak
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« Reply #67 on: November 20, 2008, 02:48:52 AM »
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Quote from: TMARK
Hey just a heads up, but one shouldn't disparage another company, i.e., by declaring that Sony sponsored the obviously flawed and biased test.  In the US its called Unfair Competition.  It has a different name in the EU, but most definately exists.


And what can think after reading such a test?  Text wrote Sony Ambassador ( A Polish film, photographer, journalist and television producer. Honorary Ambassador of Sony. )
Unfair competition is the creation of such articles. Of course, these articles raise a number of noise, which probably was the intention of the author. There is no cheaper ads. Why are we doing tests? To provide equipment, pass straight Information for people who wish to select the equipment or want to get information about it. Unfortunately, this article is not.
I do not think that the Sony A900 is a bad camera. On the contrary, it is good equipment such as its price.
I do not like the way in which this was presented. To carry out the test by people who saw the equipment the first time in the reports as Krystian, is unfair. (MFDB)  All this is simply sad.

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Aurelio
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« Reply #68 on: November 20, 2008, 04:18:43 AM »
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A month ago  I had i chance to play with sony A900, I made few shot of the same scene with Sony and my Canon 1DSmk3, my conclusion is that much more details in canons files.I didnt  even try to compare with files fom my hasselblad and phase one setup as they are  proven winner over the canons files.
All I can say  about this topic is  funny
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ixpressraf
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« Reply #69 on: November 20, 2008, 04:51:25 AM »
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The funny part to me is that even respected photographers are looking for evidence that a toycam could be as good as a MFDB. It's like as if Sony has found the Holy Grail. I don't think so and they will never do that.  
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bcooter
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« Reply #70 on: November 20, 2008, 11:13:54 AM »
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Quote from: ixpressraf
The funny part to me is that even respected photographers are looking for evidence that a toycam could be as good as a MFDB. It's like as if Sony has found the Holy Grail. I don't think so and they will never do that.  


I find most of these conversations amusing.  So many great photographs shot for decades by amazing photographers have been shot with every kind of format imaginable, from polaroid, to holgas, 8x10 Sinars to old wobbly deardorfs, nikon FM's and leicaflex's.

In fact I think people here would be quite surprised at the number of photographer's whose work they cherish are shooting with film and rzs, blads, rollei's, some are still working in large formats.

and though film does have a specific look, it's still got huge clumps of "noise" and is not the easiest workflow in the world, especially when you put it into the digital domain.

I also know that none of these photographers would waste ten minutes discussing the merits of pixel pitch, file size, dr, software, or workflows.

can you imagine avedon, guy Bourdin, helmet newton sitting around a computer talking about which camera was better, the nikon or the hasselblad, the sony or the canon,  or which software was better c-1 or lightroom.

in fact if those photographers started their careers today I doubt seriously if the sony or the hasselblad would make that much difference in their final look.

I've just finished a 7 week project, carrying canons, nikons, phase and leicas and used them all for different reasons.  none were bad, it's just some were better in certain situations than others.

most of the project was shot with canons because they are kind of the intermediate step between the high iso Nikons and the high pixel count phase, but none are perfect and given my wishes, the perfect camera for me would be the 31mpx detail of the phase, the file look of a leaf in photoshop, the iso of the Nikons and the skin tones of the Canons all in the size of a leica m8.

even if that camera existed today for $45, I am sure this forum would light up with brand loyalists claiming it isn't as good as the new whatever or could never be printed larger than 4" across because it didn't have enough megpixels, dynamic range or bit depth.

in fact the camera i used the most was the camera that gave the best look in the computer or on the camera lcd as the first and only thing I want a client to say is wow.

honestly, the first thing I want to say is wow, the second is the client's reaction.

personally I hope Sony becomes another big player and pushes everyone to make better cameras.  we have nothing to lose from this.

I'm beyond brand loyalty in the digital world.  I really don't think it's possible to say you are only going to shoot with one camera or only going to work with one raw processor.  that would be like shooting with only one film or lens.  some people can do it, but in the paying world few can.

our industry is changing, some of it for the better as we get to see the image immediately, some worse as we lose some spontaneity shooting for committees huddled around computers, but the only thing that is important in photography is the photograph.

we've become such a brand conscience society that I wonder why it is so important that anyone know what camera you use in the first place.  maybe I'm missing something but the camera companies I have dealt with are not tossing out big bucks or even giving complete creative freedom unless it exactly fits thier brand, so in my mind all of these associations may be a good way to raise your google rating, but doesn't mean much to the people that hire you.  the camera companies push their brands and if using your name helps them your in the headline, if it doesn't then your in 10pt body copy.

do you really think a client knows the difference between a phase, sinar, or leaf digital back.  in fact the client that requests you use a specific back is probably the client you don't want to know, because next they are going to start cropping heads off of full length images and that doesn't do much for your career.

the only camera announcement I've seen in 15 years that sounds really breakthrough is the red.  why so many people on this forum are against the concept is beyond me.  everyone keeps asking modular, upgradable systems that shoot faster and are equal in versatility to the dslrs and it seems red understands that.  whether it works or not in my view red should be praised for being brave enough to break the mold.

http://www.mergegroup.com/related-stuff/20...blown-away.html

actually all of america should be jumping up and down with joy over the red, because last time I read the business section of the NYT it didn't seem like anything is made in the u.s. anymore.

I don't think for a moment that the world is going to change the moment the new red cameras appear.  still photography has to be shot like stills, motion like motion, but if the red allows the ability to use one system for both, then I might be able to carry one system rather than 2 or 3 or 4.  then again maybe the visual world will change because there are some very brilliant and talented people with open minds that can see how mixing motion with amazingly detailed stills can captivate.  

maybe none of this will come to pass and we'll all keep shooting our legacy film cameras stuck with digital sensors in them, waiting for the next incremental upgrade.  I do know that I'm not sitting here waiting for my leather NASCAR jacket with 12 camera logos on them and fully expect the moment I put down the cash for the red or any new camera I'll pay retail.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #71 on: November 20, 2008, 01:17:12 PM »
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Ok, which RAW-converter have you used?

Erik


Quote from: Aurelio
A month ago  I had i chance to play with sony A900, I made few shot of the same scene with Sony and my Canon 1DSmk3, my conclusion is that much more details in canons files.I didnt  even try to compare with files fom my hasselblad and phase one setup as they are  proven winner over the canons files.
All I can say  about this topic is  funny
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« Reply #72 on: November 20, 2008, 02:37:03 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
can you imagine avedon, guy Bourdin, helmet newton sitting around a computer talking about which camera was better, the nikon or the hasselblad, the sony or the canon,  or which software was better c-1 or lightroom.

Amen
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lisa_r
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« Reply #73 on: November 20, 2008, 03:06:17 PM »
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Quote from: Aurelio
A month ago  I had i chance to play with sony A900, I made few shot of the same scene with Sony and my Canon 1DSmk3, my conclusion is that much more details in canons files.I didnt  even try to compare with files fom my hasselblad and phase one setup as they are  proven winner over the canons files.
All I can say  about this topic is  funny

Indeed, the comparisons I have seen show that the Canon 1Ds3 has more detail and the files are sharper than the Sony's. Though the appear to be very close. And the Canon apparently has far less noise at ISOs higher than 200.
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hcubell
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« Reply #74 on: November 20, 2008, 03:09:25 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
can you imagine avedon, guy Bourdin, helmet newton sitting around a computer talking about which camera was better, the nikon or the hasselblad, the sony or the canon,  or which software was better c-1 or lightroom.

No....but I can imagine Ansel Adams doing so.
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samuel_js
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« Reply #75 on: November 20, 2008, 06:52:25 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
the only camera announcement I've seen in 15 years that sounds really breakthrough is the red.  why so many people on this forum are against the concept is beyond me.  everyone keeps asking modular, upgradable systems that shoot faster and are equal in versatility to the dslrs and it seems red understands that.  whether it works or not in my view red should be praised for being brave enough to break the mold.

http://www.mergegroup.com/related-stuff/20...blown-away.html

actually all of america should be jumping up and down with joy over the red, because last time I read the business section of the NYT it didn't seem like anything is made in the u.s. anymore.

I think your post was very clever until this point.
There are many reasons why people don't like the red one. Me being one of them, I simply don't see the revolution for what I do.
There is a big group of photogs here saying they'd buy a red one at any time. How many of them has some kind of video on their websites or offer video services? 1%. But the RED looks cool to them (personally I think it looks like a Transformer robot) and the idea of owning one is tempting. But a video camera (that's what the red is) is not a photo camera and this one isn't cheap either.

Let's see how many of you actually bought one in 5 years from now.

Regards.
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bcooter
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« Reply #76 on: November 20, 2008, 07:56:13 PM »
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Quote from: samuel_js
I think your post was very clever until this point.
There are many reasons why people don't like the red one. Me being one of them, I simply don't see the revolution for what I do.
There is a big group of photogs here saying they'd buy a red one at any time. How many of them has some kind of video on their websites or offer video services? 1%. But the RED looks cool to them (personally I think it looks like a Transformer robot) and the idea of owning one is tempting. But a video camera (that's what the red is) is not a photo camera and this one isn't cheap either.

Let's see how many of you actually bought one in 5 years from now.

Regards.



actually I shoot motion in parallel and direct motion in stand alone videos so I might not be the best example of the red, or maybe I am the example, who knows.

but I was not mentioning the red for it's video capabilties other than it's high frame rate and it's modular system.  I agree it does look somewhat transformerish, but I haven't seen too many new medium format cameras that I find as pretty as the film counterparts.  I also like the red for it's lcd viewfinder (if it works) because I find optical viewfinders in the digital world to be challanged.  The H-1 and I'm told the HY6 prism bends and even the canons and nikons do not show an accurate view of dof compared to the final file.

I've also focused a lot of high def video cameras through various monitors; large field, on camera and battery powered high def lcds and they focus as well as any optical finder I've used for digital capture.

regardless I applaud red for the attempt and for maybe waking/shaking up the industry.   since the start of digital capture we've been handed incremental upgrades that move glacier slow and I have little doubt given red's history of sales with their original motion camera that they won't have success in the professional still camera market.

time will tell, but in the end of the day it really doesn't matter.  photographers will use what they want until the market demands they change.

though in regards to adding motion to a still photographer's repertoire I can see that coming faster than most want to admit.  all reports say canon's 5dII is the most preordered dslr in history.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2008, 07:58:45 PM by bcooter » Logged
gwhitf
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« Reply #77 on: November 20, 2008, 10:29:00 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
all reports say canon's 5dII is the most preordered dslr in history.

Thinking of that 5DII video function, I'm not sure why this comes to mind:

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/yout...hallenges_users
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Aurelio
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« Reply #78 on: November 21, 2008, 05:20:06 AM »
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Erik
One of my close friends has a camera shop, i went there to get some tripods for my studio and he told me that they get new camera in the shop,Sony A900. He insisted to do some shot to compare with  Canon 1dsMk3. We couldn't use the same raw covertor for both files since lightroom which we had couldn't open Sony files, he installed software for Sony  i don't remeber the name of it. we try to squeezed most from both files during conversion and result  is that canon is clear winner , more sharp, much more details in dark area etc, that's my personal opinion, and i think i have enough experience with high end photo equipment.
Also i know very well what hasselblad can produce. I don't have   phase one p30+ back, but i do own P25 and P45+. All my friends are speechless when they see  a difference with any of 35mm cameras. Personally i would be very happy to get quality of MFDB for 3000E what is the price for Sony. I will not post anymore on this topic as I said on previous post this is FUNNY. Anyone who used Hasselblad knows what im talking about.
 Canon G10 has a 15 mp almost the same as Canon 1DSmk2, many G10 owners would be very happy to hear they have camera which is similar to 1dsmk2, but its not just about number of pixels isn't it
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 05:24:13 AM by Aurelio » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #79 on: November 21, 2008, 08:19:41 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Thinking of that 5DII video function, I'm not sure why this comes to mind:

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/yout...hallenges_users


that's pretty funny and I agree, better cameras won't make anyone more creative, in still or motion.

but for the next 18 months there is this to consider;

http://tinyurl.com/5p5n3e

and when you think about it, as photographers how do you advertise.  is your effort and visibility in print or is it mostly in web/interactive.

something to think about.

but then you go to this  http://creativity-online.com/work/view?seed=22f4c7ac  and you wonder if his work starts in medium format, 35mm, his cell phone or screen grabs.

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