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Author Topic: Does ProPhotoRGB cause dark prints?  (Read 7467 times)
dmilgram
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« on: November 04, 2008, 11:59:42 AM »
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I use CS3 with ProPhotoRGB as my working color space. My camera captures in Adobe RGB color space.

When I print my color images on my Epson 3800, the darker areas (which are well-rendered on my calibrated screen) come out very dark on the prints.

I recently read (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/techniques/3800-ebw.shtml) that ProPhotoRGB uses a gamma of 1.8 whereas my PC system assumes a gamma of 2.2.

Is it possible that my use of ProPhoto RGB is the cause of my dark prints?
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Wayne Fox
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« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2008, 12:35:57 PM »
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Quote from: dmilgram
I use CS3 with ProPhotoRGB as my working color space. My camera captures in Adobe RGB color space.

When I print my color images on my Epson 3800, the darker areas (which are well-rendered on my calibrated screen) come out very dark on the prints.

I recently read (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/techniques/3800-ebw.shtml) that ProPhotoRGB uses a gamma of 1.8 whereas my PC system assumes a gamma of 2.2.

Is it possible that my use of ProPhoto RGB is the cause of my dark prints?

No.

The most likely cause of your dark prints is your monitors luminance is too high.  To get the prints to match you need to profile the monitor, which includes setting a correct luminance value, normally around 120.  This means turning down the brightness ... most of the time quite a bit ... some monitors can't even go that low.

 There are a few threads about this problem in the forum, just search for Luminance
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Czornyj
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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2008, 12:44:43 PM »
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Quote from: dmilgram
I use CS3 with ProPhotoRGB as my working color space. My camera captures in Adobe RGB color space.

When I print my color images on my Epson 3800, the darker areas (which are well-rendered on my calibrated screen) come out very dark on the prints.

I recently read (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/techniques/3800-ebw.shtml) that ProPhotoRGB uses a gamma of 1.8 whereas my PC system assumes a gamma of 2.2.

Is it possible that my use of ProPhoto RGB is the cause of my dark prints?

That depends. Did you set "no color management" option in printer driver, "Color Handling: Photoshop Manages Colors" in Print dialog box, and chose the profile of your printer & paper in "Printer Profile:"?
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dmilgram
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« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2008, 12:58:59 PM »
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Yes, I opt for no color management by the printer driver and I select the the Pro38 EMPP profile for Epson Matte Paper. Still the prints come out way darker than the monitor. Also, I have set the monitor brightness to about 90 (when using the Gretag EyeOne Plus calibrator).

...david

Quote from: Czornyj
That depends. Did you set "no color management" option in printer driver, "Color Handling: Photoshop Manages Colors" in Print dialog box, and chose the profile of your printer & paper in "Printer Profile:"?
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Czornyj
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« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2008, 01:45:41 PM »
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Quote from: dmilgram
Yes, I opt for no color management by the printer driver and I select the the Pro38 EMPP profile for Epson Matte Paper. Still the prints come out way darker than the monitor. Also, I have set the monitor brightness to about 90 (when using the Gretag EyeOne Plus calibrator).

...david

Did you enable softproofing (View>Proof Setup) with Pro38 EMPP as "Device to simulate","Perceptual" rendering intent and "Simulate Paper Color" option checked before printing?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 01:46:37 PM by Czornyj » Logged

DarkPenguin
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« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2008, 02:32:39 PM »
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How are you viewing your prints?
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dmilgram
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« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2008, 02:33:44 PM »
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I do softproof as you described. Simulating the paper color washes out the image more than actually occurs but I check it both ways. Nonetheless, shadow regions with significant apparent detail print much darker with most of the detail lost. This problem has plagued me even though I replaced the desktop computer (running Windows 2000) with one running Vista. I also changed monitors as well.

I wonder whether there may be multiple processes at start-up that attempt to remap the monitor's Color LUT and that the Gretag-Macbeth calibrated LUT is not the one that survives startup.

...david

Quote from: Czornyj
Did you enable softproofing (View>Proof Setup) with Pro38 EMPP as "Device to simulate","Perceptual" rendering intent and "Simulate Paper Color" option checked before printing?
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KeithR
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« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2008, 03:54:57 PM »
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Quote from: dmilgram
I do softproof as you described. Simulating the paper color washes out the image more than actually occurs but I check it both ways. Nonetheless, shadow regions with significant apparent detail print much darker with most of the detail lost. This problem has plagued me even though I replaced the desktop computer (running Windows 2000) with one running Vista. I also changed monitors as well.

I wonder whether there may be multiple processes at start-up that attempt to remap the monitor's Color LUT and that the Gretag-Macbeth calibrated LUT is not the one that survives startup.

...david
As stated earlier, it sounds as if you monitor is to bright. Turning on simulating paper color is simply showing you the diference in dynamic range between your monitor and your paper. You will never get it the same unless you can change the law of physics.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 03:55:32 PM by KeithR » Logged

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Czornyj
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« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2008, 04:40:14 PM »
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Quote from: dmilgram
I do softproof as you described. Simulating the paper color washes out the image more than actually occurs but I check it both ways. Nonetheless, shadow regions with significant apparent detail print much darker with most of the detail lost. This problem has plagued me even though I replaced the desktop computer (running Windows 2000) with one running Vista. I also changed monitors as well.

I wonder whether there may be multiple processes at start-up that attempt to remap the monitor's Color LUT and that the Gretag-Macbeth calibrated LUT is not the one that survives startup.

...david

In that case I agree with others - try to increase illumination of your prints, or calibrate your monitor to lower luminance.

If it won't help, your colorimeter may be broken - check if the gradation of the panel is calibrated properly - if you calibrate it to gamma 2,2, that pattern (displayed at 1005) should be neutral, without color stripes:
http://members.chello.pl/m.kaluza/rzeznik_lcduf.png
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Schewe
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« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2008, 07:44:27 PM »
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Quote from: dmilgram
I use CS3 with ProPhotoRGB as my working color space. My camera captures in Adobe RGB color space.


Uh, are you shooting JPEG? If you are shooting raw, you aren't shooting in Adobe RGB you know. Raw is raw...in that case the color space is determined when you process from Camera Raw into Photoshop...

If you are running an LCD, the odds are pretty good that your display luminance is too bright. If you have a hardware calibration puck and software, that's something you can generally control in the making of the profile. You want to be running the display at about 140 cd/m. If you don't have that option to adjust, generally a new LCD will need to be at about 50% brightness. But that's very imprecise...
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dmilgram
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« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2008, 09:33:55 AM »
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I shoot raw and convert to ProphotoRGB when the adjusted Raw image is brought into PS/CS3. I'll try 50% monitor brightness and see how that goes. thanks.

...david

Quote from: Schewe
Uh, are you shooting JPEG? If you are shooting raw, you aren't shooting in Adobe RGB you know. Raw is raw...in that case the color space is determined when you process from Camera Raw into Photoshop...

If you are running an LCD, the odds are pretty good that your display luminance is too bright. If you have a hardware calibration puck and software, that's something you can generally control in the making of the profile. You want to be running the display at about 140 cd/m. If you don't have that option to adjust, generally a new LCD will need to be at about 50% brightness. But that's very imprecise...
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stamper
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« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2008, 03:23:50 AM »
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Quote from: dmilgram
I shoot raw and convert to ProphotoRGB when the adjusted Raw image is brought into PS/CS3. I'll try 50% monitor brightness and see how that goes. thanks.

...david

A while back I changed my colour space from Adobe RGB to ProphotoRGB and manipulated an image in Photoshop. I then printed it on my HP inkjet using the proper settings. The print was terrible. I discovered that my printer can only handle sRGB or Adobe RGB so I changed back and everything was OK Can your printer handle Prophoto RGB?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 06:39:59 AM by stamper » Logged

Czornyj
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« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2008, 03:40:44 AM »
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Quote from: stamper
A while back I changed my colour space from Adobe RGB to ProhotoRGB and manipulated an image in Photoshop. I then printed it on my HP inkjet using the proper settings. The print was terrible. I discovered that my printer can only handle sRGB or Adobe RGB so I changed back and everything was OK Can your printer handle Prophoto RGB?

When you use "Photoshop Manages Colors", and choose proper printer profile in "Print" dialog box it doesn't really matter what space the image is rendered into. Photoshop so or so converts it to printer's specific space, so you always should get proper results - the only difference is, that some dark, saturated colors can be clipped in smaller editing spaces.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 03:42:03 AM by Czornyj » Logged

stamper
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« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2008, 06:38:51 AM »
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Quote from: Czornyj
When you use "Photoshop Manages Colors", and choose proper printer profile in "Print" dialog box it doesn't really matter what space the image is rendered into. Photoshop so or so converts it to printer's specific space, so you always should get proper results - the only difference is, that some dark, saturated colors can be clipped in smaller editing spaces.

I believe that what was happening in the HP printer. It allows you to choose sRGB or AdobeRGB colour space. Because I edited the image in Prophoto  to maximise saturation and contrast they were clipped and the image became "bland and muddy". I sometimes wonder if the posters that choose Prophoto as their colour space realise that few printers or print companies can deal with it? They read about it and because it is the "latest fashion" they use it without understanding the consequences?
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Czornyj
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« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2008, 08:47:47 AM »
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Quote from: stamper
I believe that what was happening in the HP printer. It allows you to choose sRGB or AdobeRGB colour space. Because I edited the image in Prophoto  to maximise saturation and contrast they were clipped and the image became "bland and muddy". I sometimes wonder if the posters that choose Prophoto as their colour space realise that few printers or print companies can deal with it? They read about it and because it is the "latest fashion" they use it without understanding the consequences?

That has nothing to do with "ProPhoto printing ability". You can print ProPhoto rendered images on any printer, it's just a matter of proper printing options configuration. sRGB and AdobeRGB option in printer driver is exclusively for sRGB and AdobeRGB images - so you can't really use it for images, that were rendered into any other colour space.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 08:48:18 AM by Czornyj » Logged

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