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Author Topic: EX1 - use and workflow..  (Read 7613 times)
Morgan_Moore
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« on: November 08, 2008, 02:54:14 AM »
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Thanks probably 90% to MRs Understanding Video Review I got myself an EX1 with a letus extreme coming soon - all for the cost of another D3 and a nice lens

I guess my work will be viewed..

-as part of a flash on a client  websites
-as QT shorts on client websites
-as vimeo embeds on my/client websites
-on DVD in client Foyer/Trade stand

I also intend to get stock saleable footage on some libries - corbis motion - Istock (?) or where ever

To MR and others how do you configure it

I understand from the same webpage that maybe I would be best using 720p rather than 1080i for instance

(I understand that one can overcrank in this setting for a start)

Should 720p be my standard (it feels wrong to not shoot at the highest possible resolution?)

I will be filiming a lot of movement most likely - waves - surfers - runners - shoudl I just leave it on 50 or 60 FPS all the time?

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In terms of workflow I notice that FCP seems to reference to files rather than suck them into the 'films' one makes

This has a pro being that ones HD usage is not doubled but a con in that the directory structure of ones archive must be carefully managed

How do people handle this..

Also the RAW footage seems to need to be prepped/unstuffed before being used with FCP

Whats the workflow for that?

Unstuff all (while having a coffee) and delete the raw (sounds dodgy)

or view your clips in the sony software and just unstuff the rushes that may make the cut (sounds like doubling of HD space used)

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Im not into the flicker film look- I want as smooth as possible - I should be going for 30FPS

or..

Im in the UK which is 50hz and PAL (I think) so 25 FPS should be my standard this will lead to less interpolation tricks
being required by FCP and less lossy editing ?
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Is there any value in going for high shutter speeds beyond double the frame rate will this create sharper images in the same way that one goes for higher shutter speed in still photography ?

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Any other thoughts from MR or others most welcome..

MR - maybe you need to make a DVD..

TIA

SMM

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Chris Sanderson
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« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2008, 08:26:42 AM »
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The scope and depth of the questions you pose are beyond my scope. I suggest you do a considerable amount of reading. A very good place to start (other than the manuals) is with Philip Hodgett's The HD Survival Handbook which can be found at Intelligent Assistance.com . Good luck!
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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2008, 09:10:26 AM »
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Quote from: Morgan_Moore
I understand from the same webpage that maybe I would be best using 720p rather than 1080i for instance. (I understand that one can overcrank in this setting for a start). Should 720p be my standard (it feels wrong to not shoot at the highest possible resolution?). I will be filiming a lot of movement most likely - waves - surfers - runners - shoudl I just leave it on 50 or 60 FPS all the time?
I have & use an EX1 and these parameters depend on your output requirements. Some producers/clients will request 1080p, others 720p, other won't care. The EX1 in 720p gives you over/under cranking abilities, and it consumes less drive space and takes less time to render the final sequence.

As for frame rates, you need to evaluate and decide this for yourself. There is no standard, only opinion. If you want a jump start on the learning curve with this camera, I suggest getting the Vortex Media DVD on mastering the Sony EX-1. You'll find their playback of various frame rates informative.

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In terms of workflow I notice that FCP seems to reference to files rather than suck them into the 'films' one makes. This has a pro being that ones HD usage is not doubled but a con in that the directory structure of ones archive must be carefully managed. How do people handle this. Also the RAW footage seems to need to be prepped/unstuffed before being used with FCP. Whats the workflow for that?
Ingesting footage is a 2-step process. First use the XDCAM Transfer utility to convert the camera data to a QT format that's readable by FCP. This is a very important step because the utility allows you to log each segment with copious notes, and even extract sub-clips from each segment instead of importing an entire segment, saving time. The raw footage can be either copied to a hard drive and then converted, or it can be converted straight from the SxS card when it's plugged into your 'puter. Some people save the raw footage, others save only the QT clips & segments. It depends on your production standards. I look at the QT format as a sort of DNG format for FCP and archive only the QT formatted footage.

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Im not into the flicker film look- I want as smooth as possible - I should be going for 30FPS or.. Im in the UK which is 50hz and PAL (I think) so 25 FPS should be my standard this will lead to less interpolation tricks being required by FCP and less lossy editing ?
Produce footage that conforms to your broadcast standards. If your production will never be broadcast or viewed on a TV screen then you're free to choose anything you want.

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Is there any value in going for high shutter speeds beyond double the frame rate will this create sharper images in the same way that one goes for higher shutter speed in still photography ?
Increasing the shutter speed creates a subjectively choppy effect and is not suitable for all subjects. (This effect was used to great benefit in the movie Saving Private Ryan during the D-Day invasion of Normandy beach). The DVD mentioned above shows the effect of high shutter speeds used within a give frame rate.

Typically, you will not have problems with not enough light, but you will have too much. The camera comes with 2 ND filters and even then, on a bright set, you'll find yourself with too much depth of field. For example, if you're shooting at the beach on a nice, sunny day and your interviewing a surfer (perhaps this bloke who narrowly escaped death), you'll want a wide open aperture to separate him from the background. This can be a challenge with the tools on the EX-1, but it may be easier with the Letus adapter.
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« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2008, 05:36:11 PM »
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Thanks both for above - I will absorb and come back with questions.

Can you clarify  "clients demand 1080p" - the EX1 doesnt do this right ? MR says .. "1080P, the best of both worlds, and the current holy grail of video" - not avaialable on the EX1

Sounds like the answer is..

For slow movements/scenics 1080i is better while 720p is better for general movment or when playin back in slow mo because you can overcrank

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On the shutter speed front I can see there is art to that too

Given a stills analogy  2000th is not always best for sport - panning at 125 can look better

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Your raw footage you convert it all to the QT format and bin the 'doubleRAW' stuff

Interesting - do you not think a better converter may come with time - Look at a Kodak SLRn File done with photodesk and then with modern converters - massive difference in favour of the modern technology

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"Produce footage that conforms to your broadcast standards. If your production will never be broadcast or viewed on a TV screen then you're free to choose anything you want."

I imagine it could be broadcast at trade shows or corporate foyers on TV screens - maybe even local BBC/ITV - do you know what those standards are ?

My mate who works at the beeb seems to think he shoots at 50FPS - is that 25FPS Progressive - or just constant overcranking to be able to slow stuff down - seems like you cant have too many frames - I think they are still on SD cameras

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BTW I do have the camera so I dont need to know the capabilities - just which ones to choose !

Thanks

SMM



« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 06:03:22 PM by Morgan_Moore » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2008, 01:09:51 AM »
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Quote from: Morgan_Moore
Can you clarify  "clients demand 1080p" - the EX1 doesnt do this right ? MR says .. "1080P, the best of both worlds, and the current holy grail of video" - not avaialable on the EX1. Sounds like the answer is.. For slow movements/scenics 1080i is better while 720p is better for general movment or when playin back in slow mo because you can overcrank
720i/p and/or 1080i/p is an output parameter based on a broadcast device, and a receiver (an HD television). It is not related to a frame rate or shutter speed. The choice of 720 or 1080 is based on parameters such as the broadcast station, the producer paying the fees and what TV monitor is preferred by the producer. It has very little to do with the look of the image during playback; that is determined by frame rate and shutter speed.

If you give, for example, The Discovery Channel a feature on surfing in 720p and they only accept 1080p, then they will reject your work outright, without even considering it for distribution because it is not presented in their preferred format.


Quote
Your raw footage you convert it all to the QT format and bin the 'doubleRAW' stuff. Interesting - do you not think a better converter may come with time - Look at a Kodak SLRn File done with photodesk and then with modern converters - massive difference in favour of the modern technology
The QT digital format is flexible and can be transformed to another format as needs change. I can always provide my QT footage within later clips by using FCP. The QT format is like TIFF and can endure format wars. If not, I lose. I'm not filming the D-Day invasion for the posterity on mankind.

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"Produce footage that conforms to your broadcast standards. If your production will never be broadcast or viewed on a TV screen then you're free to choose anything you want.". I imagine it could be broadcast at trade shows or corporate foyers on TV screens - maybe even local BBC/ITV - do you know what those standards are ?
I do not know the standards in the UK. In the USA it is NTSC and very convoluted (29.97 fps "drop frame"). The standard for your region is very specific and you must learn & understand it if you are to distribute on it.

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My mate who works at the beeb seems to think he shoots at 50FPS - is that 25FPS Progressive?
I don't know. Ask him.


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BTW I do have the camera so I dont need to know the capabilities - just which ones to choose
You should study everything so you know what the difference looks like. Interlaced looks different than progressive. 25p looks different than 30p. As the cinematographer must know what choices to make to best serve your client.
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Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2008, 02:42:10 AM »
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Quote from: Chris_Brown
720i/p and/or 1080i/p is an output parameter based on a broadcast device, and a receiver (an HD television). It is not related to a frame rate or shutter speed. The choice of 720 or 1080 is based on parameters such as the broadcast station, the producer paying the fees and what TV monitor is preferred by the producer. It has very little to do with the look of the image during playback; that is determined by frame rate and shutter speed.

If you give, for example, The Discovery Channel a feature on surfing in 720p and they only accept 1080p, then they will reject your work outright, without even considering it for distribution because it is not presented in their preferred format.

Indeed I understand that 720p or 1080i are not connected to shutter speed or frame rate

There is a practical connection however with the EX1 because one cannot get 60FPS at 1080i and therefore cannot 'overcrank' while shooting 1080i

I belveive I am correct in thinkin that uing overcranked footage is far better than interpolating 'normal footage' and therefore one should overcrank when one anticipates slo mo in the edit

- but in you example you say the Disco chanell needs 1080p - the EX1 doesnt shoot that AT ALL (unless I am mistaken) - are you saying that I can out put 1080i footage as 1080p (same as uprezzing a still - you can match the numbers but not the actual quality of a larger original) or just not deliver to that client

Of course you need to deliver to the client in the format they want - same as a client wanting an A3 poster Shot on a D3 will moan if given a non uprezzed file - even if they could have upressed it themselves and saved some bandwidth getting the file !

Can I summarize that the actual way to get the 'best' footage from the camera is (very roughly)..

Use 1080 for slow moving stuff , interviews etc

Use 720 for sport etc that one may want to play back in slowmotion

Sorry If I sound 'thick'

SMM







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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2008, 02:08:24 PM »
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Quote from: Morgan_Moore
There is a practical connection however with the EX1 because one cannot get 60FPS at 1080i and therefore cannot 'overcrank' while shooting 1080i
Correct. Over/under cranking is available only when shooting in 720i/p.

Quote
I belveive I am correct in thinkin that uing overcranked footage is far better than interpolating 'normal footage' and therefore one should overcrank when one anticipates slo mo in the edit
Correct, unless you artistically prefer what FCP does when slowing things down.

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the EX1 doesnt shoot that AT ALL (unless I am mistaken)
You are mistaken. Details are here.

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are you saying that I can out put 1080i footage as 1080p (same as uprezzing a still - you can match the numbers but not the actual quality of a larger original) or just not deliver to that client
No. Interlaced capture and progressive capture are simply different methods the camera scans the sensor.

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Can I summarize that the actual way to get the 'best' footage from the camera is (very roughly).. Use 1080 for slow moving stuff , interviews etc. Use 720 for sport etc that one may want to play back in slowmotion
The choice of 1080 or 720 should be based not on your subject matter, but how the footage will ultimately be displayed, and what techniques are available at each of those resolutions.

I suggest you buy or rent the DVD mentioned earlier in this thread. It will clarify many answers to your questions, and it does it using video, not a forum.  
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« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2008, 04:52:41 PM »
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Quote from: Chris_Brown
You are mistaken.

AHA ! ..(PAL) HQ mode: 1920 x 1080/50i, 25P

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I guess i is more blurry and smoother while p is sharper but potentially more jittery

In terms of further reading I will seek on - thanks for your time

Funny  I find most things easy to learn with a couple of quick questions on a forum seems there is more to this video thing

Shame I am too busy being paid to shoot stills at the moment to really get into testing it - letus should come torrow too

SMM




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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2008, 07:18:01 PM »
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I guess i is more blurry and smoother while p is sharper but potentially more jittery
Just the opposite. Progressive mode provides a smoother, softer look. It's illustrated very well in the DVD I mentioned.
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2008, 12:23:43 AM »
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Quote from: Chris_Brown
Just the opposite. Progressive mode provides a smoother, softer look. It's illustrated very well in the DVD I mentioned.

Ok - guessing wont work !
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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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