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Author Topic: Arrogance thy name is "Canon"  (Read 7328 times)
claskin
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« on: November 09, 2008, 05:10:51 PM »
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Sometime last week or perhaps the last 7-10 days, Canon announced to their retailers that the retail price of the 5D II will be increased in Canada by $300. The cameras have yet to land in Canada. My retailer had 200+ orders for the 5DII. They, as well as all other Canon dealers in Canada, were told to cancel all orders for the camera and re-order them at the increased price. Rather than take the high road and simply accept all orders at the originally advertised price (BTW the original price was not a tentative price; it was the MSRP), then set a cutoff date where new orders would be at the new price, Canon took this annoying and arrogant stand. Unfortunately I have too much invested in Canon glass and like others, will have to live with this. Morally I would prefer to unload it all and move to Nikon. Great product and to the best of my dealer's knowledge, Nikon has never done such a move. Of course I'm venting but I do have little choice. For those who think they might avoid this by buying in the US, apparently the same is or will happen there as well. Of course I would be delighted to be wrong, but I have been told otherwise. Lastly for those who believe that this is really the dealer's decision, I was shown the original Canon announcement to dealers.

You know after this rant, I really don't feel any better. However, when I'm king....:-)
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Carl Laskin
DarkPenguin
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« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2008, 05:25:53 PM »
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I'm not sure I understand the use of the word "arrogant" in this circumstance.
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feppe
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« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2008, 05:28:22 PM »
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Quote from: DarkPenguin
I'm not sure I understand the use of the word "arrogant" in this circumstance.

Me neither. If you don't like the price, you don't have to buy it.
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Panopeeper
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« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2008, 05:50:28 PM »
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Quote from: DarkPenguin
I'm not sure I understand the use of the word "arrogant" in this circumstance.

I sure do understand it and agree with the sentiment.
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Gabor
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« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2008, 05:56:23 PM »
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So, when a car mfr. starts producing a highly-sought new model, and the 'price' jumps way up...?
Or when Nike charge hundreds of dollars for -tennis shoes-...?
Or a million other things that define 'free market'...?

Maybe you can have the luminescent "O" pass a law that prices meet your expectations?!      
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2008, 06:02:22 PM »
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I understand the pain, but what do you expect?

The Yen just got 15-20% stronger compared to most other currencies, 40% stronger compared to the Euro.

Canon is still producing mostly in Japan, and considering the pretty low margin they must be making on the 5DII considering its retail price, it isn't very surprising that they decide to adjust the price upwards.

Nikon will probably also have to do the same with the D700 and D3 that are still produced in Japan, the other bodies being produced in Thailand will probably be less affected.

This story is a direct consequence of the sub-prime loan disaster and shows through a real world example how crazy investement practises can influence our daily lifes, even for those of us who have been utterly careful with our financial moves.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Tony Beach
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« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2008, 06:06:20 PM »
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Quote from: DarkPenguin
I'm not sure I understand the use of the word "arrogant" in this circumstance.

"My retailer had 200+ orders for the 5DII. They, as well as all other Canon dealers in Canada, were told to cancel all orders for the camera and re-order them at the increased price."

Maybe "rude" or "bait and switch" might be more accurate than "arrogant".  Personally, I think all three apply.
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Tony Beach
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« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2008, 06:16:48 PM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Nikon will probably also have to do the same with the D700 and D3 that are still produced in Japan, the other bodies being produced in Thailand will probably be less affected.

I'm not going to speculate about how these companies handle currency exchange rates, especially since they have many markets and many places they have to spend their money, but I believe they do some hedging and use sophisticated financial instruments to cover their butts.  Nonetheless, I would be upset too if I ordered a Nikon camera from a dealer for the MSRP, paid them for it or put a deposit on it, and then was told the price had been raised -- a lot of people feel like they have made a commitment to buy the camera and often will lose their deposit if they back out of the deal because they decide they can buy the camera for less somewhere else or if the price had been reduced, that principle goes both ways inasmuch as the seller should likewise be obliged to honor the agreed upon transaction.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 06:17:42 PM by Tony Beach » Logged
Panopeeper
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« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2008, 06:29:28 PM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
The Yen just got 15-20% stronger compared to most other currencies, 40% stronger compared to the Euro.

Canon is still producing mostly in Japan, and considering the pretty low margin they must be making on the 5DII considering its retail price, it isn't very surprising that they decide to adjust the price upwards
Gimme the tissue, please!

But before, perhaps think of the past three years: the Canadian dollar was high months long, then higher months long, then even higher. It took Canon years  and much complaints plus much direct imports from the US to adjust the prices of certain products with special refunds, which compensated only in part for the exchange rate difference.

Furthermore, it seesm to elude your (and others') attention, that this is a retroactive change.
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Gabor
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2008, 06:38:05 PM »
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Quote from: Panopeeper
Furthermore, it seesm to elude your (and others') attention, that this is a retroactive change.

Not really, nobody has actually bought a camera yet if I am not mistaken? It is not as if they went knocking on buyers doors asking them for an additional 300 C$ for a camera they bought last week, right?

I am not familiar enough with the trade regulations of Canada to know whether this current move is legal or not. It appears for sure not to be an elegant decision and one that is not very customer centric.

I am not saying that I applaud Canon for doing this, just that I understand why they might want to take such a decision.

Any Canon customer un-happy about this is obviously free to lobby to try have them change their mind, contact a consumer representative association and try to make a case strong enough that media get interested, start a legal action or select a different equipment supplier.

As far as the last option goes, I am not sure that Nikon or Sony would act different. There is a level of economic turmoil beyond which some decisions are impossible to avoid and now appears to be such a time. I don't like it either.

Cheers,
Bernard
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dalethorn
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« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2008, 06:58:35 PM »
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Quote from: feppe
Me neither. If you don't like the price, you don't have to buy it.
You just demonstrated what the first person mentioned - arrogance. This is funny and sad also - that people here have no clue about customer loyalty, and don't care to look into the possibility either.
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BruceHouston
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« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2008, 10:28:18 PM »
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In the U.S., at least, if a retailer offers a consumer a camera at a given price, and the consumer accepts the offer as evidenced by paying a deposit (especially a non-refundable deposit), a contract is formed.  The retailer breaches the contract and is subject to a lawsuit if that retailer fails to deliver the camera at the agreed-upon price within the agreed-upon timeframe.

The same would hold true as between a camera manufacturer and the retailer, subject to the terms of the manufacturer's "dealer contract."  Somewhere that contract probably says "prices subject to change without notice" or something to that effect.  Details not spelled out in a commercial contract of that nature may be found in the Uniform Commercial Code ("UCC") in the U.S.

(This is not legal advice, rather merely a comment made during an educational exchange.)

Bruce
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Kagetsu
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« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2008, 10:40:37 PM »
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I've seen too the numbers complaining about the price hike, but to be honest, I don't really see how people couldn't expect this to happen.

Canon are being made out to be the villain by a lot of people, but there has to be a sense of reality check in regards to the market the way it is.

First of all, Canon, may have listed a RRP, but there's no reason Canon CAN'T increase the price, and chances are there'll be a note of such conditions on their website, in their release documentation etc. I can't think of one company in the world that doesn't at least cover this concept in anything they releas a price for.
Secondly I believe that retailers have also played a part in the 'suggestion' of cancelling orders and relisting them (Bait and switch). Not likely... Canon would have received orders from their customers (the retailers), and have absolutely no connection with the customer of the retailers. Canons only honor is to their direct customer. They may SUGGEST all they want, but it's not an expressed opinion of the company... Unprofessional for sure, but not official... And in this case, I really doubt Canon would have suggested so. Any order received by the retailer from their customer is purely at their own risk, and it lies solely with them.
Check also, half the retail places (maybe not some of the small ones though, as it's often fly under radar territory, or never been an issue in the past) will have a condition of preorder with something along the lines of the price may change, and doesn't guarentee you the said item in the next shipment, only when available for your shipment.

Don't get me wrong, it's crappy, and you feel ripped... but realistically, with the market as slack as it is right now, I'd be counting blessings that it isn't worse.
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roli_bark
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« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2008, 01:35:40 AM »
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The price hike in Canada is to a new CDN$3099.99. That, by current currency exchange rate (1.18 @Nov. 10th) is US$2626.

So I don't understand what this fuss is all about ?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 01:45:35 AM by roli_bark » Logged
Craig Arnold
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« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2008, 02:04:51 AM »
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The pre-order price in the UK for the 5D2 is 2300. Approximately 4250 Canadian Dollars.

Forgive me if I don't fall weeping at sobbing to the ground at your terrible plight.
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feppe
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« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2008, 12:56:58 PM »
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Quote from: dalethorn
You just demonstrated what the first person mentioned - arrogance. This is funny and sad also - that people here have no clue about customer loyalty, and don't care to look into the possibility either.

I'm sure Canon did, and decided that the negative impact on customer loyalty is lower than the positive impact of the price increase. It's not arrogance, it's business.
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dalethorn
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« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2008, 02:29:39 PM »
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Quote from: feppe
I'm sure Canon did, and decided that the negative impact on customer loyalty is lower than the positive impact of the price increase. It's not arrogance, it's business.
No, that is wrong. Canon's decision regarding the price is business, but their decision not to get off of their butts and have some PR person offer a plausible explanation and apology is in fact arrogance.
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ZoltanZZZ
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« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2008, 03:43:51 PM »
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Are we missing the boat here, the issue is that if they quoted a price and orders were taken that price needs to be honoured.  Anyone ordering after the price change or who did not make a down payment would be subject to the new price.  That is the issue.  Canon should be honouring the pre-ordered camera price with a down payment.
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Kagetsu
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« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2008, 05:15:38 PM »
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Quote from: ZoltanZZZ
Are we missing the boat here, the issue is that if they quoted a price and orders were taken that price needs to be honoured.  Anyone ordering after the price change or who did not make a down payment would be subject to the new price.  That is the issue.  Canon should be honouring the pre-ordered camera price with a down payment.

No, we're not... Pre-orders aren't taken by Canon... Pre-orders are taken by retailers... It's not a blame game on Canon, it's on your retailer.
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claskin
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« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2008, 07:26:50 PM »
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I started this thread knowing that it would be a controversial issue. There are more important issues but let me clarify my point and the use of the word, "arrogant". Firstly, I agree that this is business and based upon economic pressures plus currency exchange rates, prices will go up and down. I understand completely. My point is, that when the Canadian dollar was flying high, Canon did not lower their prices in line with the currency exchange. They enjoyed a windfall profit simply based on the exchange rates. Again, their decision and if you don't want to buy their product, don't. I agree. With the Canadian dollar falling, and the yen flying, of course they need to adjust the foreign currency pricing. Many orders were placed with the original pricing. I submit that they should honour the orders placed by dealers then place a cutoff date when the new pricing will start. I see this as simply good business practice. This is exactly how my organization practices (we are somewhat less of a business entity than Canon, Inc.)  
I find it arrogant (definition of my use to follow) that Canon told their Canadian dealer network that they were canceling their orders and the dealers must replace the orders in line with the new pricing.
(arrogant: I am so good that I can do whatever I wish to do and people will simply have to live with it).

To the responders of this thread:
1) individuals do not order directly from Canon; dealers do. Canon canceled the orders from their dealer network. The point remains that Canon chose the "low road" in their business decision. So pre-orders are not the dealers fault per se, orders to the vendor by their "customers" i.e. the dealers, is business as usual.
2) I am sorry that Canon pricing is higher in other countries. My point had nothing to do with the price in Canada; it had to do with how the increase was implemented.
3) "...so don't buy [the camera]...". As I said, my choice is to sell my Canon glass at a great loss or buy the camera. I guess I could show Canon that I will dump all of their gear, eat a loss of thousands and now buy Nikon. Do you think that will really show them? Like I said originally, I will not cut off my nose to spite my face. I will have to eat this increase and live with it. Again, it is the implementation of the price increase.

So my friends, I started this thread to make a point. I expected nothing to come of it and I will buy the 5DII. I really have little choice. If Canon priced it originally at $3099, I still would have ordered it. If they would have then retroactively canceled the orders to accommodate a price increase, I still would object to the way they do business. One last point, faced with a rise in the yen several years ago, Nikon honoured their pre-orders "to date" then all orders from a specific date forward were subject to a price increase. That is what I call the high road and the way I do and will continue to do business.
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Carl Laskin
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