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Author Topic: Arrogance thy name is "Canon"  (Read 7889 times)
JohnBrew
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« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2008, 06:48:12 AM »
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Quote from: Tony Beach
I'm not going to speculate about how these companies handle currency exchange rates, especially since they have many markets and many places they have to spend their money, but I believe they do some hedging and use sophisticated financial instruments to cover their butts.  Nonetheless, I would be upset too if I ordered a Nikon camera from a dealer for the MSRP, paid them for it or put a deposit on it, and then was told the price had been raised -- a lot of people feel like they have made a commitment to buy the camera and often will lose their deposit if they back out of the deal because they decide they can buy the camera for less somewhere else or if the price had been reduced, that principle goes both ways inasmuch as the seller should likewise be obliged to honor the agreed upon transaction.
My experience in the past has to do with automobiles, but similar circumstances. Usually when a new model is announced and someone puts down a deposit they get the model at the price which was announced first. If there is an increase it is passed on to later buyers. First buyers in many cases are those who pre-purchase a model which will be very popular and are in essence, speculators. They buy early to make a profit or to be the "first on the block" to have something new and put one over on their neighbors or afficionados of certain brands. Yes, I'm with the OP on this one. Shame on Canon.
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JessicaLuchesi
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« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2008, 01:14:15 PM »
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Look, as far as I understand, after accepting the order, Canon ( or the retailer ) should be legally bound to taking the agreed contract price for the product. I mean... I fully understand the changes in world commerce, and companies having to pay higher interest rates to keep up their financial health with banks loans and changes in production cost simply for currency exchange rate changes and so on. They COULD have done a "from now on, due to the international crisis, we'll be forced to increase our product pricing", but you'd have to know the full price the moment you order. After you ordered, I feel they should be obliged to honor their word and advertisement. Say, if when your ordered, your order receipt says "$500", and they charge "$600", I would go for a lawsuit to have them honor the price I bound myself to pay, when ordering. Unless you signed a contract saying the prices are subject to changes and so on, and you agreed with that.

I think it's not worth the hassle to debate with your retailer, but it's worth taking your receipt with the price, and the receipt for the charged price, and enter a class lawsuit with all photographers who feel this isn't fair, to change price after the purchase is done. Maybe you're up for a refund and you'll be teaching Canon a lesson.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 01:20:16 PM by JessicaLuchesi » Logged
robertjm
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« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2008, 01:28:04 PM »
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but there are no orders, there are only pre-orders, which is essentially no more than a glorified wait-list: the store promises that if you are number 13 on that list, the 13th camera will be offered to you. If you buy, then there is a purchase, but if you don't agree with the price, you are not forced to buy.

Quote from: JessicaLuchesi
Look, as far as I understand, after accepting the order, Canon ( or the retailer ) should be legally bound to taking the agreed contract price for the product. I mean... I fully understand the changes in world commerce, and companies having to pay higher interest rates to keep up their financial health with banks loans and changes in production cost simply for currency exchange rate changes and so on. They COULD have done a "from now on, due to the international crisis, we'll be forced to increase our product pricing", but you'd have to know the full price the moment you order. After you ordered, I feel they should be obliged to honor their word and advertisement. Say, if when your ordered, your order receipt says "$500", and they charge "$600", I would go for a lawsuit to have them honor the price I bound myself to pay, when ordering. Unless you signed a contract saying the prices are subject to changes and so on, and you agreed with that.

I think it's not worth the hassle to debate with your retailer, but it's worth taking your receipt with the price, and the receipt for the charged price, and enter a class lawsuit with all photographers who feel this isn't fair, to change price after the purchase is done. Maybe you're up for a refund and you'll be teaching Canon a lesson.
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schrodingerscat
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« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2008, 03:04:30 PM »
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Quote from: robertjm
but there are no orders, there are only pre-orders, which is essentially no more than a glorified wait-list: the store promises that if you are number 13 on that list, the 13th camera will be offered to you. If you buy, then there is a purchase, but if you don't agree with the price, you are not forced to buy.


Exactly, and I would not do business where a pre-order required a full purchase-price deposit.

The shop I contract for usually requires a couple hundred dollars to put you in line, which is refundable if the purchase is not implemented. When the equipment shows up, the customer is contacted and told they have a limited time to come collect it before losing their turn.
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ZoltanZZZ
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« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2008, 05:13:00 AM »
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After a week of consideration I have decided to let my wallet talk and cancel my order, it was not a decision I took lightly.  Two factors moved me in the direction neither was sufficient by it self but combined made me change my mind.  The first one that really started all this was the Remembrance Day, I read the history of how POWs were used by Japanese companies as slave labour and that they were never compensated.  The companies refused to admit what they had done.  I have no proof that Canons predecessor was involved but it was a common practice.  There are very few survivors left and records are very sketchy and in Japanese.  The Army turned the POWs over to the companies with the agreement that the companies would pay the prisoners, they never did pay them and they were used as slave labour.  The second factor was that Canon has made some recent blunders MKIII focusing and the debate about the 50D IQ, do I want to gable $3K on a camera that may not deliver.  I know that one order is not going to make a difference to Canon but it will make a difference to me and that is what is important.
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jani
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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2008, 11:23:03 AM »
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Quote from: claskin
So my friends, I started this thread to make a point. I expected nothing to come of it and I will buy the 5DII. I really have little choice.
I disagree. You have the choice of not purchasing the camera, or at least delaying the purchase.

As for the discussion thread, everybody seems to be making their points based on guesswork and whispering game information.

From the information I've been able to find, Canon Canada had not committed to the price of CDN 2799 for the body, it was a projected suggested retail price. However, several retailers may have allowed pre-orders without pricing caveats. Apparently, Vistek is one such retailer.

There's a blog for people who feel snubbed here, and I suggest that those of you who do feel that Canon and/or your retailer have done something wrong, should read the information provided here:

http://stoppriceincrease.blogspot.com/

(Disclaimer: I do not know the author of this blog, nor can I attest to the veracity of the claims therein.)
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Jan
Tony Beach
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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2008, 11:56:07 AM »
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Quote from: ZoltanZZZ
...I read the history of how POWs were used by Japanese companies as slave labour and that they were never compensated.  The companies refused to admit what they had done.  I have no proof that Canons predecessor was involved but it was a common practice.

While your sentiments are commendable, they would apply to all companies -- not just Japanese companies.  For instance, in principle this issue applies to German companies too; and since much of the wealth of the world was (and still is) acquired by slave labor, and theft of land and resources from indigenous peoples -- this means there are not many good guys, or easy ways to avoid the bad guys.

Quote
The second factor was that Canon has made some recent blunders MKIII focusing and the debate about the 50D IQ, do I want to gamble $3K on a camera that may not deliver.  I know that one order is not going to make a difference to Canon but it will make a difference to me and that is what is important.

Perhaps $300 more puts you over your personal risk/benefit threshold, but I do not see how anything else changed in regards to the gamble you were ready to bet on before the price was adjusted.

I do think this is more a retailer issue than a manufacturer issue.  If you made a deposit then you made it to the retailer, so it is the retailer that is bound to honor the transaction if that deposit was non-refundable, if it was refundable then I would just let it go (instead of starting a blog as someone did).
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claskin
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« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2008, 05:11:01 PM »
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Quote from: jani
I disagree. You have the choice of not purchasing the camera, or at least delaying the purchase.

As for the discussion thread, everybody seems to be making their points based on guesswork and whispering game information.

From the information I've been able to find, Canon Canada had not committed to the price of CDN 2799 for the body, it was a projected suggested retail price. However, several retailers may have allowed pre-orders without pricing caveats. Apparently, Vistek is one such retailer.

There's a blog for people who feel snubbed here, and I suggest that those of you who do feel that Canon and/or your retailer have done something wrong, should read the information provided here:

http://stoppriceincrease.blogspot.com/

(Disclaimer: I do not know the author of this blog, nor can I attest to the veracity of the claims therein.)

1) I have little choice means: I am heavily committed to Canon glass and have sold my 1DsII. I am not willing to take the loss by selling the lenses and switching to Nikon, for example.

2) Point of clarification: The Canon Canada price was definitely NOT a projected price. It really was the selling price. The two major Canadian retailers, Vistek and Henry's, independently verified that statement. Moreover, I was shown the Canon announcement of the 5DII including the price that was sent to its dealers. It stated that the MSRP IS $2799 for the body only. If this was a projected price, then there would have been no reason for Canon to instruct its dealer network to cancel all orders and re-order at the new price.

Thank you for your thoughts and the link to the blog. I will now put this argument to rest.

Carl
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Carl Laskin
dalethorn
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« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2008, 08:54:17 PM »
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I don't know who financed the Japanese before or during the War, but the Germans got a lot of support from U.S. businesspeople like Ford and Rockefeller. The posts I see here saying the manufacturers aren't arrogant is absurd. Those mfr's are dealing in big money, and they care as much for you as they do for the flies buzzing around their offices.
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jani
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« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2008, 03:27:47 AM »
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Quote from: claskin
It stated that the MSRP IS $2799 for the body only.
Just one minor nit-pick:

MSRP = Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price

It's not a guaranteed price, it's not even the price point that most retailers sell their gear at.

If you somehow manage to get a binding court sentence through Canada's Supreme Court that says otherwise, it will have some interesting ramifications regarding pricing policy and statements.
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Jan
ZoltanZZZ
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« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2008, 04:58:54 AM »
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The difference between Germany and Japan is that Germany admitted wrong and paid a huge war debt, Japan did not it, was only recently that the Japanese government apologized for the war and that created problems internally in Japan.  Japanese companies are in denial publicly regarding slave labour and have not admitted that they were wrong.  Instead of complain I did something, I expressed an opinion and followed through with action.  The intent of my statement was not to convince other people to do the same it was a personal choice I made regarding a company and the way it operates.  I do not agree with them and they are not getting my money.
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DarkPenguin
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« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2008, 08:20:59 AM »
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Edit: comment removed.

Hmm....  about 2 seconds from posting a joke to regretting it.  I think that's a record.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 08:22:34 AM by DarkPenguin » Logged
Tony Beach
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« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2008, 08:40:25 AM »
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Quote from: ZoltanZZZ
Japanese companies are in denial publicly regarding slave labour and have not admitted that they were wrong.

You have completely gone off the rails here.  Do I need to argue now that everyone is in denial (which they are) regarding injustices they have and continue to profit from?  You even admitted you do not know specifically what Canon's role was in this, nor if that was any better or worse than Nikon's role or anybody else's role.  I get exercised about Japan's role in WWII too, you can't seriously argue that "The Army turned the POWs over to the companies with the agreement that the companies would pay the prisoners..", that army was a brutal dictatorship that massacred its own people almost as mercilessly as it massacred others and that army didn't give a damn about POWs -- for instance, many American GI's were murdered and starved to death in the Philippines by the Japanese army (not by Japanese companies).  My grandfather was killed by a kamikaze pilot in the 1944, but that doesn't stop me from thinking highly of the products made by the same company that made the airplane that killed my grandfather.  China was the biggest victim of the Japanese, but I frankly despise the government that rules that country now much more than the current Japanese government; which of these two governments is causing more problems in Africa today?  Yes, concern for justice in an unjust world is commendable; but injustices from WWII have nothing to do with how the price of a camera is determined or how much someone should have to sell it for.
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LoisWakeman
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« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2008, 08:47:53 AM »
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Quote from: DarkPenguin
Edit: comment removed.

Hmm....  about 2 seconds from posting a joke to regretting it.  I think that's a record.
Hmm - one of those "Are you sure you want to xyz?" ... "Yes" ... "Oh crap NOOOOooo" moments?  
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dalethorn
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« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2008, 09:31:53 AM »
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Quote from: LoisWakeman
Hmm - one of those "Are you sure you want to xyz?" ... "Yes" ... "Oh crap NOOOOooo" moments?  
Since I work in a big corp. and attend meetings where we wring our hands trying to decide how to explain ....... to certain customers, then of course we do nothing, I know what people are experiencing. The only solution is to just yell louder. No joke.
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claskin
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« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2008, 06:17:58 PM »
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Quote from: jani
Just one minor nit-pick:

MSRP = Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price

It's not a guaranteed price, it's not even the price point that most retailers sell their gear at.

If you somehow manage to get a binding court sentence through Canada's Supreme Court that says otherwise, it will have some interesting ramifications regarding pricing policy and statements.


Point made. I have no intention in pursuing this legally. My pockets are not that deep! :-)
Regards,
Carl
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Carl Laskin
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