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Author Topic: Electronic Shutter Systems for view cameras  (Read 3601 times)
zachary_goulko
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« on: November 10, 2008, 03:55:56 PM »
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I am looking into upgrading to an electronic shutter system for my Sinar 4x5 view camera. The process of cocking the shutter, and opening the lens every time to focus slows me down, and can be difficult when the camera is in awkward positions.

Is there a system out there that can communicate with the back, and/or computer?

Any suggestions are appreciated...
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2008, 04:06:43 PM »
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here's quite an old thread on the subject:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=13660
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zachary_goulko
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2008, 05:49:23 PM »
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Quote from: foto-z
here's quite an old thread on the subject:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=13660

Thanks! I will look into it...
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Zachary Goulko
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ctz
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2008, 11:15:38 PM »
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Quote from: zachary_goulko
I am looking into upgrading to an electronic shutter system for my Sinar 4x5 view camera. The process of cocking the shutter, and opening the lens every time to focus slows me down, and can be difficult when the camera is in awkward positions.

Is there a system out there that can communicate with the back, and/or computer?

Any suggestions are appreciated...


Hi
I was facing the same question couple of weeks ago.
I took the opportunity to take some tests.
Unfortunately one of the units I tested didn't work reliably as I've wrote here:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....mp;#entry235295
Anyway, regardless of the deffective unit, my impression is that those systems can slow you down even more than the old school mechanical systems.
IMHO is easier to open the lens by hand than to point a mouse at some quirky program buttons.
For the record, I've tested the SchneiderControl USB 2.3.2., CO4.5.1. with Phase One P45+ on a Sinar P2.
I've heard that Sinar and Leaf capture programes have better implemented workflows for dealing with these electronic shutters.
Still, as long as switching from Phase to another back it is not an option I will stick with the old mechanical Copals.
Definitely!

c

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epatsellis
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« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2008, 10:52:52 PM »
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Quote from: ctz
Hi
I was facing the same question couple of weeks ago.
I took the opportunity to take some tests.
Unfortunately one of the units I tested didn't work reliably as I've wrote here:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....mp;#entry235295
Anyway, regardless of the deffective unit, my impression is that those systems can slow you down even more than the old school mechanical systems.
IMHO is easier to open the lens by hand than to point a mouse at some quirky program buttons.
For the record, I've tested the SchneiderControl USB 2.3.2., CO4.5.1. with Phase One P45+ on a Sinar P2.
I've heard that Sinar and Leaf capture programes have better implemented workflows for dealing with these electronic shutters.
Still, as long as switching from Phase to another back it is not an option I will stick with the old mechanical Copals.
Definitely!

c

Late reply, but you may want to look into the Sinar Automatic Shutter, the older mechanical one. With all the cables attached, you compose and focus open, insert a filmholder/digital back and it closes the shutter, press the release, and insert filmholder. It just plain works, and works well.


erie
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ctz
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« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2008, 11:37:22 PM »
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Quote from: epatsellis
Late reply, but you may want to look into the Sinar Automatic Shutter, the older mechanical one. With all the cables attached, you compose and focus open, insert a filmholder/digital back and it closes the shutter, press the release, and insert filmholder. It just plain works, and works well.


erie


Hi Erie, thanks for reply.

I own two of them! (DB shutters).
But for some reason I find them giving some strong vibrations when you actually take the shot.
Maybe it is something wrong with mine, but here are my impressions:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=235179


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thsinar
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« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2008, 08:49:53 AM »
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Zachary,

I don't know what type of Sinar 4x5" you owe, but you might consider the conversion kit from the Sinar p2 to p3, using them either Sinaron digital lenses (Rodenstock non-HR and HR glasses) into CMV mount. These lenses are controlled automatically from the software, except for the f-stop which has to be set manually.
Some DB lenses can also be converted into CMV lenses (up to 150 mm)

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: zachary_goulko
I am looking into upgrading to an electronic shutter system for my Sinar 4x5 view camera. The process of cocking the shutter, and opening the lens every time to focus slows me down, and can be difficult when the camera is in awkward positions.

Is there a system out there that can communicate with the back, and/or computer?

Any suggestions are appreciated...
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Thierry Hagenauer
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epatsellis
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« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2008, 10:05:51 AM »
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Quote from: ctz
Hi Erie, thanks for reply.

I own two of them! (DB shutters).
But for some reason I find them giving some strong vibrations when you actually take the shot.
Maybe it is something wrong with mine, but here are my impressions:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=235179
Zachary,
I've been using them off and on for 20 years, and have never had an issue with vibration, with either tungsten lights or strobe. The only reason for vibration during exposure in my experience has been one of two things (having had numerous assistants over the years, I've been able to narrow it down a bit), either an over enthusiastic operator (you have to slowly push the shutter release, causing the lenst to stop down, when you feel greater resistance, pause, then press slowly to expose) or a shutter than needs cleaning and relubing. The one thing I have found with mine is that if I donlt use it for a month or so, then a dozen or two firings helps calm it down, and a tiny dot of white lube on the very end of the release has solved a few issues as well, it's easy to overdo, just the slightest of lube. If you are somwhat handy, I have a pdf of the service manual, I found that seeing how it's contructed made it easier for me to envision how to use one optimally.

Since I still shoot a lot of film, I find the cable to the back to be a godsend, speeds up my work tremendously. I'd imagine if you used a sliding back for the DB, it wouldnt' take much work to come up with a solution that actuates the cable easily. (likely not much more than a small block that the bayonet adapter threads into and the slider presses against the pin when in postion)

erie
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thsinar
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2008, 08:41:37 AM »
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I can confirm Erie's suggestion on how to release correctly:

- push down slowly, until feeling a resistance, that's where the lens is stopped down.
- then continue pressing down which will release

One can do this either by marking a short pause at the resistance point or simply by going slowly, feeling the resistance while releasing.

Failing to release this way, by releasing and pressing in a short and fast way, can (does) lead to under-exposures: the little metal piece of the shutter hits then strongly the lens mechanism and makes the f-stop jump to a higher f-stop.

Another little but important hint to keep this shutter working well: when finished shooting, set the exposure time to "B". This is the position where the springs inside the shutter are not under extension, thus remaining in working shape for a longer time. Never store the shutter set on 8"/the longest time. This will extend the springs to the maximum.

By following this there should effectively be no problems with vibrations.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: epatsellis
Zachary,
I've been using them off and on for 20 years, and have never had an issue with vibration, with either tungsten lights or strobe. The only reason for vibration during exposure in my experience has been one of two things (having had numerous assistants over the years, I've been able to narrow it down a bit), either an over enthusiastic operator (you have to slowly push the shutter release, causing the lenst to stop down, when you feel greater resistance, pause, then press slowly to expose) or a shutter than needs cleaning and relubing. The one thing I have found with mine is that if I donlt use it for a month or so, then a dozen or two firings helps calm it down, and a tiny dot of white lube on the very end of the release has solved a few issues as well, it's easy to overdo, just the slightest of lube. If you are somwhat handy, I have a pdf of the service manual, I found that seeing how it's contructed made it easier for me to envision how to use one optimally.

Since I still shoot a lot of film, I find the cable to the back to be a godsend, speeds up my work tremendously. I'd imagine if you used a sliding back for the DB, it wouldnt' take much work to come up with a solution that actuates the cable easily. (likely not much more than a small block that the bayonet adapter threads into and the slider presses against the pin when in postion)

erie
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Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
zachary_goulko
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2008, 09:32:54 AM »
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Thierry,

For now I decided to stick with Copal shutters, since I don't want to add anymore clutter around my shooting area. I feel that the convenience of controlling the lens and shutter via software is not worth the extra clunkiness or investment.

Can you tell me a little bit about the Sinar X3 and the M camera? Will it work with other backs, aside from sinar?

It would be nice to have a "DSLR-like" view camera...

Quote from: thsinar
Zachary,

I don't know what type of Sinar 4x5" you owe, but you might consider the conversion kit from the Sinar p2 to p3, using them either Sinaron digital lenses (Rodenstock non-HR and HR glasses) into CMV mount. These lenses are controlled automatically from the software, except for the f-stop which has to be set manually.
Some DB lenses can also be converted into CMV lenses (up to 150 mm)

Best regards,
Thierry
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Zachary Goulko
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thsinar
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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2008, 09:44:16 AM »
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Zacharie,

The Sinar x3 does not exist any longer, but the Sinar x is basically the same.

1. the Sinar x is basically a Sinar p2 with little differences:

- no 0-click for the different movements
- the bearer is designed a little shorter
- the 4x5" frame on the rear standard cannot be screwed away like on the p2
- the reaer standard does not have a "metering frame" as the p2 (but this is of interest only if using film and wishing to meter in the film plane)
- the horizontal shift know is red

Other than these, the design, features and movements are excatly the same as on the Sinar p2 4x5" camera.

2. The Sinar m camera does accept only Sinarbacks. It can be used as an AF medium format camera, with either Sinaron Zeiss Digital AF lenses, or with Hasselblad V lenses with the dedicated mirror module, and there exists as well the Sinaron Digital 28mm/4.5 HR lens for this camera.
The same Sinar m body can as well be used as a shutter and mounted directly on the Sinar p2 (on the Sinar x as well if one knows how to hold a screw driver).

I hope this answers.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: zachary_goulko
Thierry,

For now I decided to stick with Copal shutters, since I don't want to add anymore clutter around my shooting area. I feel that the convenience of controlling the lens and shutter via software is not worth the extra clunkiness or investment.

Can you tell me a little bit about the Sinar X3 and the M camera? Will it work with other backs, aside from sinar?

It would be nice to have a "DSLR-like" view camera...
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Thierry Hagenauer
thasia_cn@yahoo.com
epatsellis
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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2008, 04:07:47 PM »
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Quote from: zachary_goulko
Thierry,

For now I decided to stick with Copal shutters, since I don't want to add anymore clutter around my shooting area. I feel that the convenience of controlling the lens and shutter via software is not worth the extra clunkiness or investment.

Can you tell me a little bit about the Sinar X3 and the M camera? Will it work with other backs, aside from sinar?

It would be nice to have a "DSLR-like" view camera...
That's the nice thing about the Sinar Shutter, there's no control box or anything else, it opens up for focusing, allows you set the shutter speed and aperture, and when you insert a scan back, or film holder, it closes down. If you use a compendium, it makes life so much easier, you can properly shade the lens, and not have to fight to reach the shutter speed and aperture settings. If you use the Bellows Shade II, it's almost mandatory, especially when shooting 8x10 with the larger (300/360mm+) lenses, theres barely enough room to fit the front element in the bellows shade.

erie
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