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Author Topic: sRGB, adobeRGB settings on my camera  (Read 8073 times)
JDClements
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« on: November 25, 2008, 07:18:30 PM »
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I think I have this figured out, but just want to be certain:

My camera has a colour space setting option of sRGB or adobeRGB. I think I have figured out that this is not relevant when shooting in RAW. It would only apply to JPGs?

Furthemore, when working in Lightroom (converting my CR2 files to DNG), these files would automatically be in ProPhoto RGB? Or is there a setting for that?

Thanks
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Panopeeper
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« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2008, 09:38:04 PM »
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Quote from: JDClements
My camera has a colour space setting option of sRGB or adobeRGB. I think I have figured out that this is not relevant when shooting in RAW. It would only apply to JPGs?
Right; however, this "only JPEG" relates to the embedded JPEG in the raw file as well.

This has very important cosequences: the in-camera display, as well as the histograms and the clipping indication are based on that JPEG. The image data is "more compressed" by Adobe RGB than by sRGB in terms of levels, not as data compression on the card. Thus the in-camera display may indicate clipping with sRGB but not with Adobe RGB.

This is particularly interesting when concentrating on ETTR: with neutral settings (WB, contrast, saturation,...) one can see histograms in-camera, which are resembling the raw histograms (to a certain degree), and one can rely on the clipping indication. However, the color space selection has a big effect on the indication.

One has to find out for each camera model, which color space yields a closer resemblance to real raw histograms. I can only state, that the Canon 40D has to be set to sRGB, otherwise pixel saturation may not be indicated correctly.

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when working in Lightroom (converting my CR2 files to DNG), these files would automatically be in ProPhoto RGB? Or is there a setting for that?
I don't know the automatisms of LR2, but ACR does offer teh choice of color space, together with the bit depth.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2008, 09:40:26 PM by Panopeeper » Logged

Gabor
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« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2008, 08:38:55 PM »
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Quote from: Panopeeper
Right; however, this "only JPEG" relates to the embedded JPEG in the raw file as well.

This has very important cosequences: the in-camera display, as well as the histograms and the clipping indication are based on that JPEG. The image data is "more compressed" by Adobe RGB than by sRGB in terms of levels, not as data compression on the card. Thus the in-camera display may indicate clipping with sRGB but not with Adobe RGB.

This is particularly interesting when concentrating on ETTR: with neutral settings (WB, contrast, saturation,...) one can see histograms in-camera, which are resembling the raw histograms (to a certain degree), and one can rely on the clipping indication. However, the color space selection has a big effect on the indication.

One has to find out for each camera model, which color space yields a closer resemblance to real raw histograms. I can only state, that the Canon 40D has to be set to sRGB, otherwise pixel saturation may not be indicated correctly.

Excellent information, thank you. I will do some tests and determine what setting I should be using.
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Guillermo Luijk
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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2008, 09:23:58 AM »
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Quote from: Panopeeper
This is particularly interesting when concentrating on ETTR: with neutral settings (WB, contrast, saturation,...) one can see histograms in-camera, which are resembling the raw histograms (to a certain degree), and one can rely on the clipping indication. However, the color space selection has a big effect on the indication.

One has to find out for each camera model, which color space yields a closer resemblance to real raw histograms. I can only state, that the Canon 40D has to be set to sRGB, otherwise pixel saturation may not be indicated correctly.
Gabor, I understand that you get a more reliable saturation warning with sRGB than with the wider AdobeRGB, not actually because sRGB is better fot this purpose by itself but because the combination in the 40D of:

user settings (bright, sat,...) + camera criteria to blink highlights + sRGB

yields in general better results than:

user settings (bright, sat,...) + camera criteria to blink highlights + AdobeRGB

Right?
Because AdobeRGB is a wider colour profile, "strange" greenish colours like those obtained from an unbalanced RAW should clip in the highlights earlier if sRGB is set as output profile than with AdobeRGB, so if the profile were the only variable taken into account the widest profile should lie less.

BR
« Last Edit: November 27, 2008, 09:24:51 AM by GLuijk » Logged

Panopeeper
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2008, 06:49:30 PM »
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Quote from: GLuijk
I understand that you get a more reliable saturation warning with sRGB than with the wider AdobeRGB, not actually because sRGB is better fot this purpose by itself but because the combination in the 40D of:

user settings (bright, sat,...) + camera criteria to blink highlights + sRGB

yields in general better results than:

user settings (bright, sat,...) + camera criteria to blink highlights + AdobeRGB
Exactly.

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"strange" greenish colours like those obtained from an unbalanced RAW should clip in the highlights earlier if sRGB is set as output profile than with AdobeRGB, so if the profile were the only variable taken into account the widest profile should lie less

There is no logical connection between the two halves. Actual clipping can be made invisible by compression through the color space conversion.

The fact is, that judging the only true (i.e. raw) exposure from anything after colorspace conversion is largely speculation. If the result of sRGB or Adobe RGB is closer to the truth is not the question of principles but of the specific sensor's color space and its conversion in sRGB or Adobe RGB.

I made a large set of shots blowing the sky without clipping indication after I switched from sRGB to Adobe RGB on the 40D. The clipping indication is very reliable with sRGB.
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Gabor
Hening Bettermann
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2008, 11:54:48 AM »
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I have tried this for my D200, and I, too, found that the sRGB histogram indicates clipping earlier than Adobe1998. However, both histograms are consistent with the corresponding histograms in ACR/PS. Which must mean that also ACR/PS bases it's histogram on the (embedded) jpeg.

So how do I find out which is the true DR of the raw?

If memory serves me, Iliah Borg uses a workaround to achieve an in-camera white balance based on linear data, because he (or is that "she"?) finds that the jpeg-based histogram indicates clipping too early.

By the way, in either case, the highlight warning is much more "pessimistic" than the histogram.

Good light - Hening.
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Panopeeper
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2008, 01:13:44 PM »
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Quote from: Hening
both histograms are consistent with the corresponding histograms in ACR/PS. Which must mean that also ACR/PS bases it's histogram on the (embedded) jpeg
ACR, as all other raw processors, display an RGB histogram, which represents their particular interpretation of the raw image. The histogram displayed by ACR is certainly not matching with the "native" original (displayed in-camera) histogram, for ACR automatically applies a -0.5 EV "exposure" adjustment to all D200 images.

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So how do I find out which is the true DR of the raw?
See Raw histograms

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If memory serves me, Iliah Borg uses a workaround to achieve an in-camera white balance based on linear data, because he (or is that "she"?) finds that the jpeg-based histogram indicates clipping too early
There have been many discussions of this issue. See this in-house thread and this and this and this.

The downsides too are explained in some of those (embedded JPEG, etc.). I have not shot any "normal" image with the 40D at all, only "neutralized" ones.
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Gabor
Hening Bettermann
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2008, 12:27:37 PM »
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Thank You, Gabor. I will study this in more detail.
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Hening Bettermann
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2008, 05:56:49 PM »
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Well, now I have read the above links and tried this out for my Nikon D 200. I shot a Color Checker, illuminated by 2 Solux lamps to EV 10, as indicated by the Kodak gray card and the Pentax Spot Meter, which is consistent with the Nikon meter.

The camera settings in Shooting/Optimize Image/Custom were as neutral as I could find out to make them:
Sharpening normal (I had not discovered "None" because it requires to scroll...)
Tone Compensation: Less Contrast
Color Mode I
Saturation: Moderate
Hue Adjustment: 0

For the aRGB and sRGB shots, WB was set to Auto. Uni White Balance was achieved with the grossly overexposed image of the Kodak white card.

I started with an exposure according to the gray card, then increased exposure in steps of 1/3 EV, and logged, when the first highlight warning flashed, and when the in-camera histogram started to push the right hand side.

[attachment=10460:In_camer...ms_D_200.jpg]

The histograms for the first highlight warnings in ACR: (with my ACR defaults, that is everything zero, except Brightness and Contrast at their defaults, +50 and +25 respectively, Tone Curve Medium Contrast.)
Left to right: aRGB, sRGB, UNI WB.
[attachment=10461:945_aRGB_ACR.jpg] [attachment=10463:961_sRGB_ACR.jpg] [attachment=10462:953_UNI_ACR.jpg]

The according histograms in Rawnalyze: (Thank you, Gabor, for this fine software!)

aRGB:

[attachment=10464:945_aRGB...n_mapped.jpg]

sRGB:

[attachment=10465:961_sRGB...n_mapped.jpg]

UNI WB:

[attachment=10466:953_UNI_...n_mapped.jpg]

My conclusions:
aRGB warns too early, sRGB ist most reliable, UNI WB is reliable in the highlight warning, but the histogram shows highlight clipping too late.

I wonder though what it means that it is only the green values which are pushing. I am aware of that there are 2 green sensors for every red and blue one, respectively. Would it be more relevant to look at the histograms of a linearized DNG?

One question to Gabor:
In the manual to Rawnalyze, you write:

>
A particular combination of setting worth of mentioning is, when the black point and white point are at their initial values, the lightness adjustment is null, the mapping method is "Linear" and the white balance is set. The mapped histogram with white balance applied appears like a white balanced raw histogram.
>
 
When I try this, the WB checkbox is checked and disabled (grayed out). I can not un-check it. ??

Merry Christmas, and a happy new year!

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Panopeeper
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2008, 06:41:06 PM »
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Quote from: Hening
The camera settings in Shooting/Optimize Image/Custom were as neutral as I could find out to make them:
Sharpening normal (I had not discovered "None" because it requires to scroll...)
Tone Compensation: Less Contrast
Color Mode I
Saturation: Moderate
Hue Adjustment: 0
I don't know the interpretation of these values. Be careful: contrast and saturation can be negative as well (with whatever name), you have to select the middle of the scale.

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For the aRGB and sRGB shots, WB was set to Auto. Uni White Balance was achieved with the grossly overexposed image of the Kodak white card
There is a problem with this: sRGB and aRGB are alternatives to each other, but not to the WB. Whatever WB you select, a conversion in either sRGB or aRGB woill be carried out. Thus you need to make a test with UniWB AND sRGB as well as UniWB AND aRGB.

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The histograms for the first highlight warnings in ACR: (with my ACR defaults, that is everything zero, except Brightness and Contrast at their defaults, +50 and +25 respectively, Tone Curve Medium Contrast.)
In order to verify the result of unadultered conversion, you should set the tone curve to linear, everything else to 0, except the Exposure slider has to be on +0.5. This is, because ACR makes an automatic adjustment of all D200 images by -0.5 to all D200 images. You don't see this anywhere, only the result. Keep this always in eyes, for it may mislead you in judging your shots.

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I wonder though what it means that it is only the green values which are pushing. I am aware of that there are 2 green sensors for every red and blue one, respectively. Would it be more relevant to look at the histograms of a linearized DNG?
The number of green pixels plays no role in this issue. The reasons, that mostly the green causes clipping are:

1. the difference in quantum efficiency of the different wavelength ranges,

2. the color filters transmissivity,

3. the composition of the illumination.

If you are shooting at non-halogen incandescent light (low temperature), the red becomes strong; in certain fluorescent lights the blue gets strong.

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When I try this, the WB checkbox is checked and disabled (grayed out). I can not un-check it. ??
Because you have not defined any WB yet. The WB coefficients are shown as (1,1,1) (over the histograms). Make a selection on a white/grey part and hit Control-W.

Rawnalyze does not interpret the camera's WB setting, it starts out with a "Uni-WB".

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Merry Christmas, and a happy new year!
Thanks and you too!
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Gabor
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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2008, 08:15:43 PM »
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Quote from: Hening
Would it be more relevant to look at the histograms of a linearized DNG?
Hening, I forgot to answer this question.

The mapped histogram displayed by Rawnalyze never represents the result of raw conversion, for the color space conversion is not carried out by Rawnalyze, while it is an essential element of the raw conversion.

The "Mapped" histogram and the WB application is meant only for the visualization of the effect of white balancing on shifting in the histogram and on clipping. I created this because many photogs believe that the red channel is clipped (I see such posts very often), while the red raw pixels reach saturation seldom, except if you blow the entire image. Red clipping is mostly the consequence of color space conversion, and of increased saturation.

Another issue: if you upload a raw file created with your UniWB, I can verify how it works.
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Gabor
Hening Bettermann
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« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2008, 10:29:11 AM »
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Thank you, Gabor, for a very fast and detailed reply. I'll study it more closely before I get back.
- Good light!
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Hening Bettermann
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« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2008, 04:06:56 PM »
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Here's my second take on white balance, color space, exposure and histograms.

On the Nikon D200, the Optimize Image > Custom menu was set to:
Image Sharpening - None
Tone Compensation - Normal (0)
Color Mode - I. This is the default, recommended for portrait. (Even though i suspect that "recommended for portrait" means "rosified", I chose it for the test, because mode II is only selectable if aRGB is chosen for the color space.)
Saturation - Normal (0).
ISO 200.

As before, the Color Checker was illuminated by 2 Solux® lamps to EV 10. The starting exposure was according to the Kodak gray card, and the following exposures were increased in 1/3 f-stops.
Either color space (aRGB and sRGB) was shot with AWB and UNI WB, respectively. UNI WB was achieved with the grossly over-exposed image of the Kodak white card.

I forgot to turn off the room lights, which have a greenish cast, but since color rendition was not the issue here, I let it go.

I logged the occurence of the 1st highlight warning and the first highlight clipping of the histogram:

[attachment=10559:_D200_in...istogram.tiff]

"ETTR choice" is the exposure I would have chosen in the field, i.e. the last one before the highlight warning. In the case of aRGB UNI WB, the 1st highlight warning was so subtle, that I might have neglected it in real life. That's why I include this and the preceding exposure step in this case.

For the comparison of the histograms, I choose the "ETTR choice" rather than the 1st highlight warning this time.

ACR was set to Exposure +0.5, everything else 0, Tone Curve linear. The camera profile is ACR 4.4. I have included the CC image with the histogram to show the highlight warning of ACR.

968: aRGB, AWB, +1.0 EV, in ACR:

[attachment=10560:Wahlbeli..._968_ACR.jpg]

968: aRGB, AWB, +1.0 EV, in Rawnalyze:

[attachment=10562:Wahlbeli...968_Rawn.jpg]

974: aRGB, UNI WB, +1.0 EV, no in-camera highlight warning, in ACR

[attachment=10563:Wahlbeli..._974_ACR.jpg]

974: aRGB, UNI WB, +1.0 EV, no in-camera highlight warning, in Rawnalyze:

[attachment=10564:Wahlbeli...974_Rawn.jpg]

975: aRGB, UNI WB, +1.3 EV, subtle in-camera highlight warning, in ACR:

[attachment=10565:Wahlbeli..._975_ACR.jpg]

975: aRGB, UNI WB, +1.3 EV, subtle in-camera highlight warning, in Rawnalyze:

[attachment=10566:Wahlbeli...975_Rawn.jpg]

982: sRGB, AWB, +1.0 EV, in ACR:

[attachment=10567:Wahlbeli..._982_ACR.jpg]

982: sRGB, AWB, +1.0 EV, in Rawnalyze:

[attachment=10568:Wahlbeli...982_Rawn.jpg]

990: sRGB, UNI WB, +1.3 EV, in ACR:

[attachment=10569:Wahlbeli..._990_ACR.jpg]

990: sRGB, UNI WB, +1.3 EV, in Rawnalyze:

[attachment=10570:Wahlbeli...990_Rawn.jpg]

Conclusions (for the Nikon D200) ??

As judged by the unmapped histograms of Rawnalyze,

1-the right-touch of the in-camera histogram is always too late; the highlight warning is the parameter to choose.

2-in either color space, AWB gives reliable highlight warnings.

3-in either color space, UNI White Balance results in highlight warnings too late.

4-Thus, the use of Uni White Balance does not get you "closer to the right" without clipping.

5-In aRGB with UNI WB, ACR gives highlight warning and shows a clipping histogram even when the camera doesn't, and Rawnalyze shows almost 1/3 f-stop of headroom. (#974)  

6-A strange observation: in # 974, 975, and 990, ACR places the highlight warning in CC field row 4 column 2 rather than 4/1 (besides the white background wall). This can not be due to uneven illumination. In-camera, the highlight warnings appear as exspected, starting in field 4/1, then spreading to 4/2. (I kept the images on the CF card).

Good light in a happy new year!
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 04:08:14 PM by Hening » Logged

Misirlou
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« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2008, 04:29:14 PM »
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I always set the camera to sRGB for two reasons. First, I agree that (with my Canons at least) I seem to get a better clipping estimation that way. Second, the only thing I use jpgs for is to help index file storage with non-color aware programs. If I am digging through a big old file with some sort of fast file viewer, I want to have those jpgs give me some indication of what the raw versions look like.

The original poster asked if Lightroom automatically converted raw files to ProPhoto. You can set Lightroom to automatically convert to either ProPhoto or sRGB. And you can also overide that auto setting for individual images, or groups of images. DxO has similar options.
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Panopeeper
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« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2008, 04:58:54 PM »
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Quote from: Hening
Conclusions (for the Nikon D200) ??
2-in either color space, AWB gives reliable highlight warnings.

3-in either color space, UNI White Balance results in highlight warnings too late.

4-Thus, the use of Uni White Balance does not get you "closer to the right" without clipping
Hening, something is wrong with your Uni-WB, It is not "uni" at all: the WB coefficients are RGB=(0.9343, 1.0, 0.3329). Although its effect is not big on the other channels, and the dominant channel is the green in this setting, the D200's histogram is only luminance, i.e. the drastically reduced blue component does affect it. I don't know how the clipping indication is working: it may indicate if any channel is clipping, but it may indicate if the luminousity is exceeding the limit.

Thus it is possible, that the non-uni WB caused the incorrect/missing clipping indication.

I created a WB template for the 40D, which results in (1.0322, 1.0205, 1.0576), i.e. within 3.6%. I did that on the tiresome way, before someonew had the idea of the totally blown shot. Later another someone found some reasoning against that method, but I forgot what.

Have you checked out the histogram of the WB template (the blown shot) in Rawnalyze? Are really all channels saturated?
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« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2008, 08:59:43 PM »
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Quote from: Panopeeper
Hening, something is wrong with your Uni-WB, It is not "uni" at all: the WB coefficients are RGB=(0.9343, 1.0, 0.3329). Although its effect is not big on the other channels, and the dominant channel is the green in this setting, the D200's histogram is only luminance, i.e. the drastically reduced blue component does affect it. I don't know how the clipping indication is working: it may indicate if any channel is clipping, but it may indicate if the luminousity is exceeding the limit.

Thus it is possible, that the non-uni WB caused the incorrect/missing clipping indication.

I created a WB template for the 40D, which results in (1.0322, 1.0205, 1.0576), i.e. within 3.6%. I did that on the tiresome way, before someonew had the idea of the totally blown shot. Later another someone found some reasoning against that method, but I forgot what.

Have you checked out the histogram of the WB template (the blown shot) in Rawnalyze? Are really all channels saturated?
When I tried uni white balance on my 40D I took a sample shot with the lens cap on, loaded that in as my white balance and then repeated the procedure. I can't remember why I had to do it twice. I stopped using uni wb because the clipping warning didn't work and I had too many blown photos. If I closely examined the histogram it was spot on (think magnifying glass), but that's hard to do in bright sun or with a lot of shots to do in a hurry in varying conditions. David
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Panopeeper
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« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2008, 09:52:03 PM »
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Quote from: Taquin
I stopped using uni wb because the clipping warning didn't work and I had too many blown photos
The neutral WB is not enough. A picture style has to be selected with sharpness 0 (left end of the scale), contrast 0, saturation 0, color tone 0 (middle of the scale) and color space sRGB. I have been using this since I have received my 40D (a year?) with success.

If you have such a raw file and upload it, I take a look at it. I can provide a neutral WB template as well.

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If I closely examined the histogram it was spot on (think magnifying glass), but that's hard to do in bright sun or with a lot of shots to do in a hurry in varying conditions.
The histogram is only for coarse orientation. It is not possible to disable the application of the sRGB mapping (the gamma curve). Therefor the histogram "moves slowly" in the vicinity of the right edge.
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« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2008, 11:01:46 PM »
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Quote from: Panopeeper
The neutral WB is not enough. A picture style has to be selected with sharpness 0 (left end of the scale), contrast 0, saturation 0, color tone 0 (middle of the scale) and color space sRGB. I have been using this since I have received my 40D (a year?) with success.

If you have such a raw file and upload it, I take a look at it. I can provide a neutral WB template as well.


The histogram is only for coarse orientation. It is not possible to disable the application of the sRGB mapping (the gamma curve). Therefor the histogram "moves slowly" in the vicinity of the right edge.
I had all the above settings except sRGB. I'll give it another try with that. One thing I liked with uni wb is it reminded me to carry a wb card and use it more often. Though in the end I still have to sit in front of a screen and use my eyes.
Thank you for your offer of a template. Philosophically I want to keep it as simple as possible with what I understand and can repair myself when it goes wrong. Shooting with the lens cap on I can do  
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Panopeeper
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« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2008, 11:52:15 PM »
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Quote from: Taquin
I had all the above settings except sRGB. I'll give it another try with that
After having had good experience with the setup including sRGB, a rabid fly must have bitten me and I changed it to aRGB without any reason and without thinking about the implications. I made large set of shots on a trip and was surprized back at home by the overexposures.

The colors are "compressed" more in the larger color space: the same color will be expressed by smaller RGB numbers in aRGB than in sRGB. Which one is more resembling the raw data depends on the camera; with the 40D it is certanly better with sRGB.

You can use Rawnalyze for displaying the WB coefficients as well; see Hening's captures above. If they are close to 1.0 (let's say they are within five percent), then the template is ok.
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Hening Bettermann
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« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2008, 02:14:59 PM »
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Thank you for your replies!

Here are the Rawnalyze histograms of the first UNI WB shot, and a second one I just made, the second one even more overexposed, the gray card reading was ~ f/5.6, 1/60", exposure 1/1".

[attachment=10579:Blow_shot_1_Rawn.jpg]

[attachment=10580:Blow_shot_2_Rawn.jpg]

Obviously, there is no change in the Rawnalyze histogram, and the white coefficients are still way out.

(In ACR with highlight warning enabled, both captures show a solid red rectangle.)

Even though I am curious for the reason, for practical shooting I will not pursue this any further with the Nikon right now, because:
In due time before the beginning of the skiing season, I have distorted my foot and can not come out shooting anyway. This way, I get a little time in the digital darkroom... By the time I'm on my feet again, I hope the 5D2 will have arrived.

A happy new year!

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