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Author Topic: D3X Pricing  (Read 21827 times)
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2008, 07:54:18 PM »
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Quote from: GBPhoto
We won't see them release a lower-spec body (D700/x) and a high-spec body (D3/x) with the same sensor at the same time, it will always be high-end first, lower model second.  I seriously doubt that Nikon is planning on recovering their 24MP sensor costs with just the D3x.

People here act like Canon is surprised when the 5D "undercuts" 1Ds sales, that Nikon is surprised when people buy D700s instead of D3, D200 instead of D2x, D100 instead of D1x, F100 instead of F5...  Maybe, just maybe, it's part of the plan all along?

Yes, of course. I might not have been clear but that is exactly what I meant to say. Nikon is of course free to plan all they want, but there comes a point where the value proposition for their customers isn't appealing anymore.

Quote from: GBPhoto
Early adopters & those with real need will pay "any" price.  Masses will wait patiently for a "bargain".

Regarding the price, if the difference between $5000-$8000 is a problem for a professional tool that will be competitive for at least 2-3 years, I think you have other problems.  Boycotting it on principle?  Well, OK, good for you.

Is the D3x really going to stay competitve for 2-3 years? Unless Canon has really given up on investing in DSLRs, they should be coming up with a new flagship within a year, hopefully with competitive physical features.

As far as the price goes, we are indeed discussing more about principles here. But principles do matter because those who don't react this time around shouldn't complain when Canon and Nikon release their next high end 35 MP flagship at 12.000 US$ on the grounds that it is even more of a threat for MF...

Cheers,
Bernard

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« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2008, 07:58:57 PM »
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Not sure how much this means, but a good friend of mine had over 300 orders for the 5Dii, compared with a whopping nine for the D3x as of this morning. With the number of Nikon shooters out there, that seems telling.

- N.
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera
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« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2008, 11:06:26 PM »
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Quote from: ndevlin
Not sure how much this means, but a good friend of mine had over 300 orders for the 5Dii, compared with a whopping nine for the D3x as of this morning. With the number of Nikon shooters out there, that seems telling.

- N.

Nothing much, rest assured.

How many orders for the 1DsMkIII did he have?

I guess this will never stop until Nikon releases a D700x... People feel the need to report that the BMW 3-series sells more than the Merc S-Class implying that Merc should do something about it.

People have elevated comparing apples to oranges to an art.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2008, 11:10:15 PM by NikosR » Logged

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #63 on: December 05, 2008, 12:32:26 AM »
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Hi,

Look here, Nikon is simply trying to skim the market. They introduce the D3X at a very high price at which only those having plenty of greenback buy. The price will than erode to the level slightly above the price of the D3. Initial earnings on the D3x will be very good, especially as development costs are relatively small.

Camera is almost identical to D3
The chip used in the D3X is almost certainly very similar to the one in the 300D

So Nikon will earn a lot of money on the first batch of cameras. Everyone is going to be happy. Canon is going to be happy, Sony is going to be happy. Some Nikon users will not be happy, namely those starved for pixels but without truckloads of greenbacks.

My personal guess is that Nikon's decision was not a very smart one. For a long time Canon has dominated in the professional area of photography, due to having full frame. With the D3 Nikon reestablished itself as a leading vendor for sports and action type photography. The risk for Nikon is now that they will loose a lot of momentum in the Landscape/Studio market.

My guess BTW is that Canon has also a 3D on the shelf, essentially a 5D with 6-7 FPS and the autofocus from the 50D. The 5DII is probably intended to be a bit lame compared with the 1DsIII. So I guess that the 3D will be unveiled when Nikon introduces the D700X or if Alpha 900 hurts 5DII sales.

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: markhout
That's a very sensible comment. Throw in a D700x at $3500 (yes, more expensive than a 5DII), and everybody would be happy. Given Nikon's sluggish time-to-market I would be really surprised if we would see a 24MP D700x within the next 6-12 months.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2008, 12:50:56 AM »
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Two reasons:

1) They are quite competitive with similarly equipped PC-s, it seems.
2) They simple work

That said, I would gladly send my iMac to pasture if:

Lightroom was available for Linux
There was a decent color calibration support for Linux
Printing would work correctly with Linux
Adobe would release Photoshop for Linux

Why? Because I could build a Linux computer 4 CPU-s and 16 Gbyte memory for perhaps 600 USD (using existing parts). Also I actually think that Linux is far better than Darwin, the OS below the Mac interface. The interface itself is to my liking. It simply works and looks pretty nice.

Regarding Windows I won't use that peace of crap if I can avoid it. Unfortunately I cannot, I have it at work and also as a multimedia computer at home. I truly hate Windows but reality forces me to use it anyway. So I know both worlds.

Erik


Quote from: bob mccarthy
Since when does the price charged have anything to do with the cost of production? It shouldn't. Nikon may not be getting the yields to ship camera in mass to everyone who wants one at the anticipated $5k price point (what I expected). Since those who use the camera productively want to put them to use asap, they should get first bite and at a price that gives them first opportunity without the 6 month wait if the masses were in the game.

This is just how business works. When the pipeline fills,the price will be lowered to allow production capacity to meet demand.

I too am disappointed and canceled my order with Midwest. To me the camera is a component of my hobby. I can see how it adds to the capability of someone who earns with the camera.

Why isn't anyone unhappy with Apple, best margins in the computer industry. We all pay up for ipods, iphones, imacs and Mac Pros with no complaint.

Marketing 101

bob
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #65 on: December 05, 2008, 02:35:31 AM »
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Quote from: NikosR
I guess this will never stop until Nikon releases a D700x... People feel the need to report that the BMW 3-series sells more than the Merc S-Class implying that Merc should do something about it.

People have elevated comparing apples to oranges to an art.

Nikos,

I could argue that your camera to car comparison is just that, isn't it? Apple to oranges.

But if you want to go there, a better example would be an Imprezza WRC relative to a BMW M3. Similar performance but very different price point. The difference with cameras being that people buy cars to show off, while cameras are mostly used to take pictures.

Anyway, our respective takes on this issue are clear by now.  

Cheers,
Bernard
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NikosR
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« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2008, 03:49:58 AM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Nikos,

I could argue that your camera to car comparison is just that, isn't it? Apple to oranges.

But if you want to go there, a better example would be an Imprezza WRC relative to a BMW M3. Similar performance but very different price point. The difference with cameras being that people buy cars to show off, while cameras are mostly used to take pictures.

Anyway, our respective takes on this issue are clear by now.  

Cheers,
Bernard


It depends how you define performance. In camera world is it only IQ that interests you? In the car world is ii only HP that interests you? That's why I gave the 3-series vs S-class example which I think is clearer. You can get similar HP cars in each of the lines but there the similarity ends...
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ndevlin
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« Reply #67 on: December 06, 2008, 08:50:37 AM »
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Quote from: NikosR
Nothing much, rest assured.

How many orders for the 1DsMkIII did he have?

I guess this will never stop until Nikon releases a D700x... People feel the need to report that the BMW 3-series sells more than the Merc S-Class implying that Merc should do something about it.

People have elevated comparing apples to oranges to an art.


Respectfully, I think you are mistaken.  Canonites have had a meaningful, high-res, FF, MF-rivalling camera solution since the 1DsII came out in the late Paleozoic period (4!#^? years ago).  They sold zillions of them. Nikon lost phalanxes of pros to Canon.  Then, Canon upped the ante with the 1DsIII.  The elation was more muted, since it was a mere upgrade. However, they have still sold boatloads of them, too.  

Nikonites, on the other hand, have waited for ever and ever to have a camera in the same class. The D3/D700 are both spectacular image-engines,  but they are not in the same 'class'. Let me be specific: this is not a normative description.  In many instances the D3/D700 are *better* than the "MF League" Canons (and now A900).  However, they do not rival the 1dsIII (or 5Dii or A900 or MFDB) because they do not perform the same function for the types of photography where the utmost resolution is of serious importance.

More ink (or bits) has been spilled by Nikonites pining for and predicting the high-res Nikon FF camera than on virtually any other topic over the years.  

And now, it's HERE!! In all probability, it's an absolutely brilliant camera.  AND, because of the brilliance of the D3 & D700, there are once again legions of Nikon shooters out there with great glass just itching to be unleashed on the D3x.

And the D3x drops and...............it's like a pebble hitting the water.   Huh??  In one major city of a million people, the leading photo retailer has 300 5D2s on order and 9 D3xs ??!?!?!?

Two possibilities: (i) no one shooting the sort of work you need 20+Mps for still shoots Nikon. This is highly unlikely, since a clear majority of the 5D2 buyers are rich amateurs.  Or, (ii) everyone is waiting for the price to drop to where the price for 20+Mp dslrs currently sits.  Even at $5900 they'd sell container-loads of them.  

But at $8K, only the really rich or really devoted or really impatient are biting.  Sure, these are the fat, slow, Wildebeast of the photo-veld, and Nikon will feast mightily off them, but they are few and far between.

In the meantime, a lot of potential customers probably have the money to pick up a 5D2 or an A900 just to play around with it.   Letting your customers 'see other people' until you decide to put out......that's a bad business model  

So no, it's not apples and oranges.  It's apples, and $10 a pound organic designer apples.....going stale on the shelf.

- N.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 08:52:42 AM by ndevlin » Logged

Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera
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« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2008, 09:06:58 PM »
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I note that Marcus Bell has some Australian fashion images up from the D3x (and the 50 AF-S).  There are crops and larger versions of the photos can be seen by clicking on them. Something for folks to divert themselves with as they ponder MSRPs.  The link: http://www.studioimpressionsphotography.co...-sample-images/
« Last Edit: December 06, 2008, 09:07:53 PM by Theodore » Logged
Mark D Segal
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« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2008, 09:58:12 PM »
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Quote from: image66
Isn't the D3X announced price the same as the 1DsMk3?  What gives?  Why the outburst against Nikon and not against Canon?  How about Phase One?

Frankly, all along, I thought that Canon's pricing was the epitome of arrogance, but that didn't seem to bother anybody before.  Now Nikon offers what we were asking for--a higher pixel count D3 to match the 1DsMk3.  Did you actually think that Nikon was going to give them away? If Canon is going to charge $8000, why not Nikon?  Frankly, the Nikon is the better camera.

And to compare this camera to the Sony or the 5Dmk2 (which we've never seen yet and might be a dog for all we know) is incompatible with common sense. This is no different than back in the film days saying that a EOS Rebel was just as good as a EOS 1V.  It wasn't true then, and it isn't true now. (Until I see a Sony A900 image that isn't smeared from too high Noise-Reduction...  The Sony, as good as it is, ain't no Nikon or Canon).

Michael, your rant should not be aimed at Nikon, but at the entire industry that continues to find some justification for these excessive equipment prices.  And you are as much to blame as anybody because you've been the poster-child of the camera buyer that must have the "latest-greatest" at any price.  After all, you had a standing pre-order on a camera that nobody has ever seen nor had any proven track-record one way or the other.

Ken

Ken,

Michael's latest "What's New" addresses most of your post.

The only thing I would add is that manufacturers can do what they want and consumers can do what they want. That's what a market is all about. Frankly, from my perspective, especially in this economic environment, releasing such a camera at this time and at that price point is just plain nuts. But ther market will tell us more about that one way or another not too long after it ships.

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
NikosR
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« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2008, 04:43:05 AM »
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Quote from: ndevlin
Respectfully, I think you are mistaken.  Canonites have had a meaningful, high-res, FF, MF-rivalling camera solution since the 1DsII came out in the late Paleozoic period (4!#^? years ago).  They sold zillions of them. Nikon lost phalanxes of pros to Canon.  Then, Canon upped the ante with the 1DsIII.  The elation was more muted, since it was a mere upgrade. However, they have still sold boatloads of them, too.  

Nikonites, on the other hand, have waited for ever and ever to have a camera in the same class. The D3/D700 are both spectacular image-engines,  but they are not in the same 'class'. Let me be specific: this is not a normative description.  In many instances the D3/D700 are *better* than the "MF League" Canons (and now A900).  However, they do not rival the 1dsIII (or 5Dii or A900 or MFDB) because they do not perform the same function for the types of photography where the utmost resolution is of serious importance.

More ink (or bits) has been spilled by Nikonites pining for and predicting the high-res Nikon FF camera than on virtually any other topic over the years.  

And now, it's HERE!! In all probability, it's an absolutely brilliant camera.  AND, because of the brilliance of the D3 & D700, there are once again legions of Nikon shooters out there with great glass just itching to be unleashed on the D3x.

And the D3x drops and...............it's like a pebble hitting the water.   Huh??  In one major city of a million people, the leading photo retailer has 300 5D2s on order and 9 D3xs ??!?!?!?

Two possibilities: (i) no one shooting the sort of work you need 20+Mps for still shoots Nikon. This is highly unlikely, since a clear majority of the 5D2 buyers are rich amateurs.  Or, (ii) everyone is waiting for the price to drop to where the price for 20+Mp dslrs currently sits.  Even at $5900 they'd sell container-loads of them.  

But at $8K, only the really rich or really devoted or really impatient are biting.  Sure, these are the fat, slow, Wildebeast of the photo-veld, and Nikon will feast mightily off them, but they are few and far between.

In the meantime, a lot of potential customers probably have the money to pick up a 5D2 or an A900 just to play around with it.   Letting your customers 'see other people' until you decide to put out......that's a bad business model  

So no, it's not apples and oranges.  It's apples, and $10 a pound organic designer apples.....going stale on the shelf.

- N.


You write a long post just to argue what? What I already supposed you were. You're asking for a D700x (rightly so) and in the meantime you're comparing the D3x to the 5DII. That's an apples to oranges comparison if I ever saw one.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2008, 06:36:14 AM »
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Somebody has been devoting a bit of time to this issue...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnwf2RShNV0

Cheers,
Bernard
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2008, 07:32:13 AM »
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Bernard, thanks for sharing - made my Sunday morning.  
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2008, 08:07:29 AM »
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Thanks for the pointer Bernard.
Absolute genius. Funniest thing I've seen in a very long time.
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Ray
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« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2008, 08:16:13 AM »
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That's hilarious, Bernard. I enjoyed that immensely   .
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« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2008, 11:56:46 AM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Somebody has been devoting a bit of time to this issue...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnwf2RShNV0

This probably qualifies as a case of Godwin's law which i suppose means everyone should stop lamenting and get back out and actually take pictures with their overpriced (or not) cameras...

Greetings,
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Christoph Hormann
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« Reply #76 on: December 27, 2008, 07:22:07 AM »
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I'm going out to shoot some snaps with my Holga this weekend - which interestingly, at $28, many people are saying is WAY overpriced. Amusing. Often I think this of site as camera equipment porn. Anyone ever question why it's 99% men on this site?

Regards, rt.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 07:30:25 AM by gr82bart » Logged

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