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Author Topic: Aptus 22 vs 5DII  (Read 84653 times)
carstenw
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« Reply #200 on: December 16, 2008, 04:02:09 AM »
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Quote from: Panopeeper
This is correct, if "light" means that light, which has been captured in the well. However, the ISO specification refers to the illumination of the scenery, which transforms to the light leaving the lens inside the camera. When we look at this light, then a more efficient sensor reaches the capacity with less light than a less efficient one.

That was the gist of what I meant to say. I guess you understood it this way, I am posting it for others, who may not have understood the "gist".

A smaller bucket fills more quickly with water too. One might call that more "efficient", if one is so inclined, but it is not a useful thing to do so. Light travels in packets, and sensors count these packets. Smaller photocells need less packets to reach saturation, but as a consequence count less finely. At the limit, a photocell capable of reaching saturation with a single photon is not going to outperform very much in IQ. Anyway, this discussion has nothing, but really nothing, to do with actual photography, so I am going to stop here. There must be a technician's forum somewhere more appropriate for your discussions.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 03:17:24 PM by carstenw » Logged

rainer_v
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« Reply #201 on: December 16, 2008, 04:06:01 AM »
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Quote from: pss
rainer...nobody argues that YOU would be better off with a DSLR....if i was shooting your stuff, tripod, movements a must, ultimate detail, long exposures and high end WA, without any need of high iso....of course there is only one way to go...
but moving objects, people,...
there will always be a market for DMF, but it was a very small market to begin with and it is getting smaller and smaller....

i think we have a certain responsiblity here......people read these posts, see the work and start believing things....
like the thread this guy started about (after 33 years of shooting!) wether he should get the DL28 or stick with canon DSLR....
i guess he finally wants to be able to get access to the elite club (where he can post images in the MF forum!!!!!)....and the prices are coming down....15000 for a body, back and lens is not bad at all! actually compared to 2500 it is.....

if frank wants to shoot RZ and DMF, that is great, really, have fun, that's what it is all about anyway, but please don't give people the illusion that they will get better results if they shoot a certain brand or with a toy in a certain price class.... that was true a year ago, it isn't anymore...

paul , since several years i dont get tired to post that in many publications i have mixed dslr shots with mf shots and that i have a hard job to tell the differences between them in prints. as i believe i was one of the first guys who made big architecture productions mixing 35mm digital with 4x5", created very very complicate workflows but got great results out of it. at that time with the kodak slr. later this gave me a lot of benefit in terms of "knowledge",- e.g. how to remove color casts with shift lenses. so together with stephan could appear the brumbaer tools in the way they worked,- and created the first time an acceptable and fast workflow for digital architecture photography .........

about 35mm : somtimes the 35mm lenses have been at or over their limit ( esp the very wides ) and that can become visible,rarely the sensor ( in my case 1dsmk2 and 5d ).
but- and this is what i wrote- IN MY FIELD of work i dont want to miss the mf backs, ofcourse together with a practical made camera,- as was my gottschalt and now the artec.
with the contax or with the sinar m i wouldnt like to shoot architecture as well as with the canons.


since long time i havent used my 5d, so if there will be no need for an actual work i will not upgrade  to the 5dmk2.
its probably a great camera, but the lenses will be the same and there is where i have the hassle for architecture.
i dont like the workflow ( for architecture ! ) and although for print work its not a big difference, for work which goes at the limit it is very unpractical or even unusable.
i do a lot of this "hiend" work at the moment for exhibitions. very big print sizes ( over 2 meters ) with very high dr. its simply much more practical to start this with mf files than with my 5d. maybe the new 35mm generation will be significant better now, but the lenses and the workflow are the same .............
one can argue theres no need for hiend tech .... the history show great photographs dont need highest technical levels... and so on. this might be true for some people, for me at the moment it is not. ( maybe next months i will use my g10 for this kind of work.... who knows, but at this moment i use for 98% of these stuff as well as for my arch. work my mf gear )
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 04:25:51 AM by rainer_v » Logged

rainer viertlböck
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www.tangential.de
csp
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« Reply #202 on: December 16, 2008, 05:55:47 AM »
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Quote from: Frank Doorhof
@Cps,

Yes I have shot with many different cameras, how about you ?

For me on MF:
app one day :
Hasselblad H2D 22MP
Hasselblad H3D 33MP
Hasselbald is not really my thing, sorry.

More than enough time to know what they do  :
Mamiya ZD
Mamiya 645AFD/II and III with film and Leaf Aptus 22/Leaf Aptus 7II
Mamiya RZ67ProII with film and Leaf Aptus22/Leaf Aptus 7II
Leaf AFi-7
Leaf AFi-7-II (beta)
Leaf AFi-10 (beta)

On DSLRs I don't even start.

So I think I can say that I experimented a "bit".
From everything I tried I love the 120mm macro on the 645AFD, and the 110f2.8 and 180f4.5 on the RZ.
The glass from the RZ is when I want to use the term "magical" but very hard to learn, the lenses are really problematic with flair but when you know how to use them they give you something in return I did not see in any other system that I experimented with.
The funny thing is that I changed the AFi-7-II back to all three systems, so on the AFi camera, on the 645 and on the RZ.
The AFi system itself was sharp and detailed, but the RZ gave me more 3D looking pictures, the 645AFD was left behind with a small margin.
So again, yes I have "some" experience otherwise I would not post here, I'm not stupid

Again, please enlight us with your work and show that you are more than 3 letters and alot of talk.....

with experience i don't mean what camera you did hold in your hands at a trade show. i mean usage under professional conditions for at least some month.  i'm not surprised to read what you see with your  rz lenses. yes it is old glass with low contrast and flair problems nothing special.  but if you like the look it is ok but i never ever would call them the among the best  you can get lenses this is simply not true and wrong as many of you other fast judge statements.


you are the symptom  for a very sad development .  your openly and proud  liaison with leaf should  help  to look  professional and sell your workshops and books.  what you show here goes so much beyond a normal  brand loyalty.  you are a smart player in the game dealers and reps have set up here and you use it for your personal profit.  if you are really only interested in photography please stop this advertising campaign.
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samuel_js
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« Reply #203 on: December 16, 2008, 11:03:57 AM »
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Quote from: csp
... i was always sure the case mf against 35mm  has more do to with faith than hard facts . some are creationists most not.  you praise the mf gear for what ever reason but i  think from a psychological standpoint  the motivation seems clear.  you defend lower or equal resolution backs bought at a very high price against a consumer camera i know that hearts.

plas, plas, plas.
I wonder how you are so sure of something you can't even see.
Just praise the world about the enourmous quality od the 5D. You're the happy one thinking your 5D is delivering like a DB. Good for you.
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TMARK
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« Reply #204 on: December 16, 2008, 11:40:51 AM »
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Its funny reading these MFDB v. dslr threads now adays, what with the photography's future seamingly unclear, and the people in the industry making the most money are not photographers, but rather seminar givers, advice givers, portfolio reviewers, digital techs, retouchers, etc.  These threads always degenerate, revealing people's true concerns.  What I see is that people have much ill will towards the back makers and those who sell, service, promote or otherwise shill for them.  Seems to reflect a general low level anger people have towards marketing and hype.  There is also an amateur v. working pro thing going on as well.  People who don't make pictures for commerce for a living love the "image quality" of the mfdbs, while those shooting thousands of frames a day for the MAN value simplicity and a threshold quality that looks good printed offset.  Then there are the dslr napoleon complex guys out to prove that the IQ advantage of the MFDBs is a myth created and supported by the high cost. Then we have the techs.

The truthe to be found in this thread and others like it is that people are pissed, in general.  People are tired of being fed lines of (real or perceived) bullshit about the greatness of MFDBs, their "ease of use", their color response, the MFDB Look, the superiority/inferiority of [insert makers name here] lenses, etc.  It really is all bullshit.  I see people not calling it like they see it, trying to get some advantage by being brand loyalists.  These guys are like Al Queda, spontaniously created sleeper cells waiting to strike whenever Sinar/Rollei, Phase/Mamiya are questioned.  At least Frank pastes the logos on his posts, and to be fair to Frank, he only lauds his own stuff and stuff he tests.  The reps etc are OK with me, because we shouldn't believe anything they say, as they are trying to sell something that is expensive and unnecessary in the worst economy we've had in 30-60 years.  Whatever Frank is doing is much less offensive than that Foto-Z guy's unceasing, shrill Sinar/Rollei guarilla marketing.  I hope Sinar is paying him.  Otherwise its just pathetic.  I assume he isn't getting paid.  

This is why this forum is dying.  People come here with an agenda, and other people come here to challenge that agenda, which is, of course, their agenda.  It is rarely like the old days when people were sharing their experiences with the backs, work arounds, problem fixes etc.  Every once in a while something good is posted, but its mainly just crap.    With this post, I think I'm out of here.
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Panopeeper
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« Reply #205 on: December 16, 2008, 11:59:45 AM »
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Quote from: carstenw
Anyway, this discussion has nothing, but really nothing, to do with actual photography, so I am going to stop here
If you are going to stop here anyway, then why do you post this inconsequential, irrelevant prattling before stopping?
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Gabor
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« Reply #206 on: December 16, 2008, 12:09:43 PM »
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Quote from: Panopeeper
If you are going to stop here anyway, then why do you post this inconsequential, irrelevant prattling before stopping?

because many long time users of this board want to read about photography not infinite arguments about the tedium that is analysing files at 500%

all this noise is driving us away

S


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Sam Morgan Moore Cornwall
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Panopeeper
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« Reply #207 on: December 16, 2008, 01:01:21 PM »
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Quote from: Morgan_Moore
all this noise is driving us away
If all those "us" have such problems with reading comprehension, then then driving them away is not a loss.
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Gabor
Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #208 on: December 16, 2008, 01:04:30 PM »
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@Csp,
I shot with the AFi's for longer than a month, to be precise I did the beta test for the AFi-II so please take care with your assumptions they don't fit here.

I'm tired of my words being turned arround and twisted and used to slap me into something I do not.

YES I teach workshops, and we do that worldwide, anyone who ever attended a workshop can confirm that the workshops are solid and good.
YES I release instructional DVDs and they sell worldwide also there we do very well.
NO we don't advertise on the DVDs, we do thank 3 companies, but I'm totally independend when I want to sell my Leaf tomorrow I can without problem, I paid for it and I can sell it, I have no contract, agreements or whatsoever, I never received a cent for any promotional activity, except for a worldwide campaign in which Elinchrom used some of my shots.
I do have two logos on my photos and this is more a tribute and I see it the same as mentioned shutterspeed and aperture, in other words people know what I used to shoot the picture.
NO I'm not getting paid one cent by both Elinchrom and Leaf, to be totally clear I chose Elinchrom and Leaf myself when I tested them along other brands, AFTER I bought I came into contact with both Leaf and Elinchrom through my work in the workshops, in other words I'm not a brand shooter, I choose my brand and if they want to work together that's ok and it can benefit both parties.

What I do taste is a very strong dislike for what I do and what I post from 2-3 members here and the god honest truth is that I don't know why, I never played a foul game, if you read my posts again you can see that I bought a 5DMKII and praise the camera straight into heaven (read the review on my blog), however as mentioned many times before I use both systems and love both and I hate it when the MF is being shortcut by people that clearly haven't used it to it's full potential.

This forum always was a good place to discuss with real pros, many have left due to the works of a handfull of members that in the first place should not hang out in the MF board but in the DSLR forum, and again I ask you to show some of your work, you hide behind 3 letters without any link for people to find out what you do.....
I have a strong feeling that there is a reason for that....




maybe I should start asking money from Leaf
but than again I would probarbly never have posted here, because I was one of the parties involved
to be honest I would rather have the money
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 01:07:00 PM by Frank Doorhof » Logged
TMARK
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« Reply #209 on: December 16, 2008, 01:29:13 PM »
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Quote from: Panopeeper
If all those "us" have such problems with reading comprehension, then then driving them away is not a loss.

You are driving me away.  I can generally read very well.  800 on SAT reading comp.  No homo.
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csp
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« Reply #210 on: December 16, 2008, 01:55:46 PM »
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Quote from: Frank Doorhof
@Csp,
I shot with the AFi's for longer than a month, to be precise I did the beta test for the AFi-II so please take care with your assumptions they don't fit here.

I'm tired of my words being turned arround and twisted and used to slap me into something I do not.

YES I teach workshops, and we do that worldwide, anyone who ever attended a workshop can confirm that the workshops are solid and good.
YES I release instructional DVDs and they sell worldwide also there we do very well.
NO we don't advertise on the DVDs, we do thank 3 companies, but I'm totally independend when I want to sell my Leaf tomorrow I can without problem, I paid for it and I can sell it, I have no contract, agreements or whatsoever, I never received a cent for any promotional activity, except for a worldwide campaign in which Elinchrom used some of my shots.
I do have two logos on my photos and this is more a tribute and I see it the same as mentioned shutterspeed and aperture, in other words people know what I used to shoot the picture.
NO I'm not getting paid one cent by both Elinchrom and Leaf, to be totally clear I chose Elinchrom and Leaf myself when I tested them along other brands, AFTER I bought I came into contact with both Leaf and Elinchrom through my work in the workshops, in other words I'm not a brand shooter, I choose my brand and if they want to work together that's ok and it can benefit both parties.

What I do taste is a very strong dislike for what I do and what I post from 2-3 members here and the god honest truth is that I don't know why, I never played a foul game, if you read my posts again you can see that I bought a 5DMKII and praise the camera straight into heaven (read the review on my blog), however as mentioned many times before I use both systems and love both and I hate it when the MF is being shortcut by people that clearly haven't used it to it's full potential.

This forum always was a good place to discuss with real pros, many have left due to the works of a handfull of members that in the first place should not hang out in the MF board but in the DSLR forum, and again I ask you to show some of your work, you hide behind 3 letters without any link for people to find out what you do.....
I have a strong feeling that there is a reason for that....




maybe I should start asking money from Leaf
but than again I would probarbly never have posted here, because I was one of the parties involved
to be honest I would rather have the money


it must be really hard to be so misunderstood ?  no, you don't come here to get attention for your business and you only  frame every shot you post here with a bunch of brand logos because you are so happy with your gear and a nice guy. this is pathetic, sorry.


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Snook
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« Reply #211 on: December 16, 2008, 02:07:46 PM »
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Quote from: csp
it must be really hard to be so misunderstood ?  no, you don't come here to get attention for your business and you only  frame every shot you post here with a bunch of brand logos because you are so happy with your gear and a nice guy. this is pathetic, sorry.

I take the Fifth on the last post... 5th amendment that is!


Snook...
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Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #212 on: December 16, 2008, 02:08:29 PM »
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Not showing your work but blowing a big horn is I think pathetic.
I never hide behind a hidden agenda, and when someone wants me to explain I do, so what's so wrong about that ?

Now stop the madness and show us some amazing work, because judging by your remarks that must be stunning ?

@Snook,
Just grow up.


edit:
end of discussion for me, I already said it before but the fun is really gone now.
It's a shame another good forum bites the dust.
I rather spend my time where it should be earning a living.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 02:19:09 PM by Frank Doorhof » Logged
jani
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« Reply #213 on: December 16, 2008, 02:24:22 PM »
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I'm sorry to add to the off-topic posts here, but seriously, guys:

If you don't like someone's posting style, put them on your IGNORE list.

Don't leave the place just because a few posters are low on social skills, keep on contributing instead.
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Jan
carstenw
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« Reply #214 on: December 16, 2008, 03:12:40 PM »
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Quote from: Panopeeper
If you are going to stop here anyway, then why do you post this inconsequential, irrelevant prattling before stopping?

Good grief, how can someone be so pompous and not explode with a limp *pop*?

I am going to remind everyone that to use the Ignore feature, you click on someone's name, choose "View Profile" and then choose the "Options" button, and choose ignore. Then you must confirm, but then, bliss. I have just used it, and can confirm that it works as intended. I realise that someone might use it on me, but such is life.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 03:16:19 PM by carstenw » Logged

samuel_js
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« Reply #215 on: December 16, 2008, 03:25:42 PM »
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Quote from: TMARK
The truthe to be found in this thread and others like it is that people are pissed, in general.  People are tired of being fed lines of (real or perceived) bullshit about the greatness of MFDBs, their "ease of use", their color response, the MFDB Look, the superiority/inferiority of [insert makers name here] lenses, etc.  It really is all bullshit.  I see people not calling it like they see it, trying to get some advantage by being brand loyalists.  These guys are like Al Queda, spontaniously created sleeper cells waiting to strike whenever Sinar/Rollei, Phase/Mamiya are questioned. At least Frank pastes the logos on his posts, and to be fair to Frank, he only lauds his own stuff and stuff he tests.  The reps etc are OK with me, because we shouldn't believe anything they say, as they are trying to sell something that is expensive and unnecessary in the worst economy we've had in 30-60 years.  Whatever Frank is doing is much less offensive than that Foto-Z guy's unceasing, shrill Sinar/Rollei guarilla marketing.  I hope Sinar is paying him.  Otherwise its just pathetic.  I assume he isn't getting paid.  

This is why this forum is dying.  People come here with an agenda, and other people come here to challenge that agenda, which is, of course, their agenda.  It is rarely like the old days when people were sharing their experiences with the backs, work arounds, problem fixes etc.  Every once in a while something good is posted, but its mainly just crap.    With this post, I think I'm out of here.

This forum is dying because of people like you. It's been like 6 months since I posted my last picture because the discussions about proffs or amateur forum, 35mm or mf are just too wild and meaningless.

This is a medium format forum and the people destroying it are just 35mm users which has discovered the holy grail with Canon and don't understand there's actually a lot of people here the actually love MF for a lot of reasosns. And we should have the right to discuss whatever we want without being assaulted all the time with their inexperience in this field.

Myself I've used (and own) several 35mm cameras and have owned most of the mf cameras and four digital backs. I know pretty well what I'm talking about. I'm actually planning my purchase of a new DB. Not a 5D really...

Now I have a big project that will be ready in May. I need to think about my music and my photography and for sure don't have time for this anymore.

So long.

 
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TMARK
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« Reply #216 on: December 16, 2008, 04:07:36 PM »
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Quote from: samuel_js
This forum is dying because of people like you. It's been like 6 months since I posted my last picture because the discussions about proffs or amateur forum, 35mm or mf are just too wild and meaningless.

This is a medium format forum and the people destroying it are just 35mm users which has discovered the holy grail with Canon and don't understand there's actually a lot of people here the actually love MF for a lot of reasosns. And we should have the right to discuss whatever we want without being assaulted all the time with their inexperience in this field.

Myself I've used (and own) several 35mm cameras and have owned most of the mf cameras and four digital backs. I know pretty well what I'm talking about. I'm actually planning my purchase of a new DB. Not a 5D really...

Now I have a big project that will be ready in May. I need to think about my music and my photography and for sure don't have time for this anymore.

So long.

I think you have me confused with another member.  I had a P30+, I've been renting MFDB since 2004.  I rent Leaf mainly because one of my clients has an account with Fotocare, which only carries Leaf and Sinar.  I have a 54s on my AFd right now, even with its pathetic flash sync. I'm not questioning you at all.  You know you come off as an MFDB Franco?  Kind of Faci, no?

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thsinar
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« Reply #217 on: December 16, 2008, 06:42:35 PM »
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Dear TM,

I feel directly concerned by your post, and as such feel it necessary to answer your allegations:

Quote from: TMARK
The reps etc are OK with me, because we shouldn't believe anything they say, as they are trying to sell something that is expensive and unnecessary in the worst economy we've had in 30-60 years.
Speaking for myself first, if you shouldn't believe all I say, then my role here is really put in question(s). Actually, and I have said it many times, with the risk of repeating myself and becoming boring, I DO NOT CARE being here or not and I could honestly be better elsewhere, with more fun and much less aggressive attacks against my person (not that I find your post aggressive). But I am staying, not because being asked by Sinar, I repeat it, but because I believe in something called "true and open information" in a non-biased place, IMO. This is not the case very often, to be able to speak freely without being censored.

If you believe that I (speaking about me, but I understand that other reps are pointed at as well) am trying to sell, then it is your absolute right. There are many others who do take the information I am able to provide here and can make use of it for whatever reason. I am not a "fan boy", like I was called recently, simply because I do not need Sinar. I am working for this company since more than 18 years now, I love my job and the people I have got to know all over the places and do appreciate what I have learnt from some of them at its just value. But I do not need it. If tomorrow it is over, than there will be other things to do, other things to learn, and my life will go on. I am not married with any company, if I feel it necessary to leave a forum like this one or another, then I will do it, without asking and waiting to get the OK (or not). I have actually done it, leaving another forum, and some here know the very reason of this decision. When I joined first this forum, 2 years back, I was not really aware what would be my role and how it would be perceived. With the time I have learned what it is, and I have come to appreciate it and to learn and evolve in this field where there is always something to learn.

I am asking nothing in return, and certainly not to buy the product I am speaking about. I am obviously glad if this is the case and if I could contribute to a sale, and that is absolutely understandable. But I couldn't care less and if I have sleepless nights, it is certainly not because somebody has bought something else or because I have not reached a "target" with my "sales pitch".

The only thing I could wish, is that one respects what is given and the persons for what they are, without the continuous attacks and aggressive words meant to destabilize those persons.

Quote from: TMARK
Whatever Frank is doing is much less offensive than that Foto-Z guy's unceasing, shrill Sinar/Rollei guarilla marketing.  I hope Sinar is paying him.  Otherwise its just pathetic.  I assume he isn't getting paid.

I can answer this without any problem: "foto-z" is not at all sponsored by Sinar, not in any way. I know Graham by means of email communication and he was featured (but not paid for) in one of our latest "Sinar Newsletter". I can also say, that we certainly not have a budget to sponsor photographers and have them speaking for us in return. So it must be pathetic for some, but I know that "foto-z" has never given any false information nor tried to convince anybody and that he knows the products he is using. If it can help somebody then I find it remarkable, if many think that he is simply here with an agenda, then it is fine too, for me.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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epatsellis
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« Reply #218 on: December 16, 2008, 07:13:14 PM »
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I will say that on this and other forums, Thierry has been more than helpful with mine and others questions and issues regarding Sinar (including advice of looking on ebay or buying used, when it makes sense), his behavior has been far and above what I would expect of any rep.

erie
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 07:13:46 PM by epatsellis » Logged
Wolfman
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« Reply #219 on: December 17, 2008, 02:42:24 AM »
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I don't get it. We use the tools that get the job done and hopefully the images we produce with those tools make us and our clients happy. Period, end of story.
Why all the insulting?  If what you use is getting the job done, whether personal fine art or a commercial job, that's the bottom line.

Let's have discussions that help each other and advance our craft. Photography is gratifying and fun and a learning experience. Promote creativity and knowledge.... not venom toward each other. This is a great forum. Let's keep it that way. You disagree with somebody.... at least express it without being insulting. The rudeness is getting boring. Most people come here not expecting that kind of dialogue. It's a turnoff.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 03:05:15 AM by Wolfman » Logged
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