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Author Topic: current status of 3100z reds problems  (Read 6020 times)
Scott Martin
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« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2008, 08:16:45 AM »
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Quote from: Gary Gray
Comparing to other printers is a test of relativity.  I agree with Howard here, what is important is that they closely match your monitor soft proof.
Right, and if you had all three brand of printers in front of you and were dealing with lots of saturated red content, the Z3100 might drive you nuts.  This is/was good feedback for prospective buyers.
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j-land
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« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2008, 01:28:42 PM »
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Just as a visual example - here is a crop from an image containing what I consider to be a fairly saturated red. This reproduces very precisely on my Z3100 on photo-type papers. The most saturated things in my photos tend to be like this... and I consider even this to be a little over the top for my taste  
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deelight
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« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2008, 04:20:45 AM »
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A few days ago I printed an art reproduction (edition of 60 reproductions). It was the second part of the job, what I want to say is: I did the first prints in april this year (with a profile made with the non APS machine) and now I had the profile made with APS software.

And - guess what? The red with APS were worse than with the non APS profile! Reprofiled again and fortunately hat the old profile from april to compare with. Reprinted with the old profile... and bummer, the old look came back.

This on HP Hahnemühle Textured FAP.

The reds were less saturated, more brown, and simply did not "jump into someones eye" like before.

So, its not the printer, its the software. I thought I would get better print quality in the reds when using the APS. Wrong thought.

So, you guys from HP: would you please do your job and work out a better color rendering for the 3100?

Best,

Clem
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2008, 06:56:10 AM »
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Quote from: deelight
So, its not the printer, its the software.
Exactly! The driver's separation parameters call for transitioning to almost all red ink when approaching 255,0,0. If you do a nozzle check you can see that the red ink is really a lame orange. Epson gets better reds by mixing magenta and yellow. Canon iPF printers do an excellent job balancing magenta, yellow and red ink to get a saturated red with impressive smoothness.

When the Zseries came out I noticed that I could get better reds with a few RIPs than I could with the driver and it's because of the differences in separation parameters. StudioPrint for example gives one the ability to calibrate and profile with and without the lame orange ink so one can compare the results. Very enlightening. It's too bad HP's engineers didn't find this feedback enlightening, wouldn't admit to a red gamut problem, later claimed to have fixed the red gamut problem with a firmware update (which did help some but not enough) and then eventually replaced their inkset with a real red ink.
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marcsitkin
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« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2008, 10:03:15 AM »
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I have a 3100, APS, and get terrible reds on HP PhotoLitho. I get great reds on Canvas (various MFG's). I do ok with Moab Entrada.

I can take the same roll of HP PhotoLitho, walk across the room and put it on a 6 color HP5000 with UV Inks, and get a great red. Go figure.

Trying to get any help at all from Hp on any of the printers (I own 4 HP's) is worse than getting teeth pulled. I've given up at this point, and have just placed an order for a 60" Canon 9100 12 color. Maybe they can support what they sell.
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Regards,

Marc Sitkin
www.digitalmomentum.com
rdonson
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« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2008, 12:14:16 PM »
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Quote from: Onsight
Exactly! The driver's separation parameters call for transitioning to almost all red ink when approaching 255,0,0. If you do a nozzle check you can see that the red ink is really a lame orange. Epson gets better reds by mixing magenta and yellow. Canon iPF printers do an excellent job balancing magenta, yellow and red ink to get a saturated red with impressive smoothness.

When the Zseries came out I noticed that I could get better reds with a few RIPs than I could with the driver and it's because of the differences in separation parameters. StudioPrint for example gives one the ability to calibrate and profile with and without the lame orange ink so one can compare the results. Very enlightening. It's too bad HP's engineers didn't find this feedback enlightening, wouldn't admit to a red gamut problem, later claimed to have fixed the red gamut problem with a firmware update (which did help some but not enough) and then eventually replaced their inkset with a real red ink.

Scott,

I'm curious if this is something than might be partially mitigated in softproofing or by editing the profile?  I know its not a fix to the problem....
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[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
Ron[/span][/span][/span][/span]
Scott Martin
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« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2008, 12:24:25 PM »
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Quote from: rdonson
Scott,I'm curious if this is something than might be partially mitigated in softproofing or by editing the profile?  I know its not a fix to the problem....
One can certainly use soft proofing to simulate the disappointing reds. RGB driver profiles don't contain separation parameters for one to tweak so no - if you are using the driver you are stuck with it's built in separation parameters.
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Xanthor
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« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2008, 06:12:21 PM »
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Im really discusted with the whole Z3200 thing.  

There is an option to purge the inks - and even if not that then you can change the lines and the print head and there is ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD REASON that this chromatic red can't be made available for the z3100 owners.

I am _NOT_ buying another Z printer - newer model or whatever ... but I might go out and get a different brand  

Z3100 owners should really band together and b!t%h and complain about this.
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rdonson
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« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2008, 08:27:40 AM »
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Quote from: Onsight
One can certainly use soft proofing to simulate the disappointing reds. RGB driver profiles don't contain separation parameters for one to tweak so no - if you are using the driver you are stuck with it's built in separation parameters.

Actually, what I was thinking of is perhaps during softproofing a deep red area (255,0,0 - your example) we might be able to mitigate the problem using selective colors or something to add some magenta and yellow.  Would this help?
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[span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'][span style='font-family:Arial'][span style='font-family:Geneva'][span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%']Regards,
Ron[/span][/span][/span][/span]
Scott Martin
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« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2008, 11:21:45 AM »
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Quote from: rdonson
Actually, what I was thinking of is perhaps during softproofing a deep red area (255,0,0 - your example) we might be able to mitigate the problem using selective colors or something to add some magenta and yellow.  Would this help?
No because RGB 255,0,0 is as red as it gets just as CMYK 0,100,100,0 is as magenta and yellow as it gets. The *device* red is being restricted because of the driver's built in separation parameters that we can't override without switching to a RIP.
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Geoff Wittig
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« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2008, 11:35:01 AM »
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Quote from: Xanthor
Im really discusted with the whole Z3200 thing.  

There is an option to purge the inks - and even if not that then you can change the lines and the print head and there is ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD REASON that this chromatic red can't be made available for the z3100 owners.

I am _NOT_ buying another Z printer - newer model or whatever ... but I might go out and get a different brand  

Z3100 owners should really band together and b!t%h and complain about this.

I can't say as I agree. Each generation of inkjets has its own dithering algorithms and crossover points set into hardware/firmware, with little margin for drastic alteration like a completely new ink color. All of the current large format inkjets have their strengths and weaknesses. I worked with Epsons for years, and struggled to get decent results way back when from the original pigment ink printer, the 2000P. Anyone who printed with one of them can tell you about the horrific metamerism and weak blacks it produced. By the first generation 'ultrachrome' printers (2200/7600/9600) you could get quite good color prints on rag paper, but neutral black & white remained a real can of worms and the black ink swap just made me crazy. Epson's K3 printers were better, the vivid magenta K3 better yet...but still with the black swap thing! I do a lot of black & white on various papers, and this is a deal-breaker for me.

Nowadays we have some real choices, and what's best depends on what your own images need. I have the original Z3100 without APS, and my Epsons have all been gathering dust since I bought it. On the right paper, I get very good reds and oranges out of it. Could I get more red saturation out of an Epson 7880? No doubt. But blues/greens are just fantastic from the Z3100; I get cobalt blue skies that really look right, something I could never get from the Epsons I used, and green foliage is perfect. And for all my black & white work, there's nothing better. HP's Vivera black/grey inks are markedly more neutral than Epson's K3 of any flavor, the d-max on matte/rag papers is visibly darker, and...no more black swapping! Moreover, I couldn't be happier with the built-in spectro. The profiles it yields for 3rd party papers have consistently met my needs.

So I guess if I were printing predominantly neon fall color shots or lots of red rock Western landscapes, one of the newer Epsons would be the first choice. But unless I was willing to spend an additional $1,000 for a 7900, I'd still be stuck with black swapping. Hmmph.

Anyway, I'd rather be making some really beautiful prints than obsessing about the last 2% of inkset red gamut. Too much like pixel-peeping with new D-SLR's.
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lcastric
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« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2008, 02:29:24 PM »
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Quote from: marcsitkin
I have a 3100, APS, and get terrible reds on HP PhotoLitho. I get great reds on Canvas (various MFG's). I do ok with Moab Entrada.

Marc, Thanks for your comment. I'm having big time reds problems on Breathing Color's Chromata White. What Canvases work well for you? Thanks.
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marcsitkin
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« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2008, 10:52:57 AM »
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Quote from: lcastric
Marc, Thanks for your comment. I'm having big time reds problems on Breathing Color's Chromata White. What Canvases work well for you? Thanks.

I've just run a 1/2 dozen rolls of Intellicoat Torino that came with the purchase of a business I bought out. I was surprised how well the reds printed. You might want to pick up a small roll and try it. I profiled it with the APS.

Also ran some IJT waterproof canvas. Not sure of the number, but it printed very well also.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 10:54:29 AM by marcsitkin » Logged

Regards,

Marc Sitkin
www.digitalmomentum.com
Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2008, 02:27:31 PM »
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Quote from: marcsitkin
I've just run a 1/2 dozen rolls of Intellicoat Torino that came with the purchase of a business I bought out. I was surprised how well the reds printed. You might want to pick up a small roll and try it. I profiled it with the APS.

Also ran some IJT waterproof canvas. Not sure of the number, but it printed very well also.


The Torino 17M, I use it most of the time. Dries fast too. The only comment I got on a list is that it has OBA's. That's correct. Intelicoat's coatings are good though. I have an affordable 190 grams dual coated paper from Intelicoat that is equal in image quality to EEM but a nicer paper. OBA's too though.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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