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Author Topic: 1Ds Mark III or Mamiya DL28  (Read 15252 times)
jerryrock
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« on: December 15, 2008, 07:14:31 PM »
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Having done a lot of reading about the new crop of medium format cameras, I am seriously considering the Mamiya DL28.  I have been shooting 35mm for over 33 years and currently have a Canon 1Ds (the original 11.1 megapixel) and a lot of Canon gear. It is time for me to upgrade and I am having a hard time trying to decide between staying with Canon 35mm or moving to medium format. I know that as you pack more pixels in a smaller sensor a new crop of problems arise.

Ultimately, image quality is my main goal. I mainly shoot landscapes, portraits and commercial subjects and realize that medium format would suit my style of photography. The new offering by Mamiya seems to be  a good compromise for me, but I have yet to read a full review of this set up. Would the Mamiya DL28 allow the use of a leaf shutter lens to increase the flash sync capability?

Any information would help me decide, but I am really looking for someone who has purchased the Mamiya DL28. I know it is just a combo of the Leaf Aptus II-6 back with the 645AFD III camera with 80mm f2.8 D lens. At $15,000. this seems like a great deal.
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« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2008, 07:39:53 PM »
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There is a current thread about the dl28. I think leaf also has files from the back that can be downloaded.
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mcfoto
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« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2008, 08:23:35 PM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
Having done a lot of reading about the new crop of medium format cameras, I am seriously considering the Mamiya DL28.  I have been shooting 35mm for over 33 years and currently have a Canon 1Ds (the original 11.1 megapixel) and a lot of Canon gear. It is time for me to upgrade and I am having a hard time trying to decide between staying with Canon 35mm or moving to medium format. I know that as you pack more pixels in a smaller sensor a new crop of problems arise.

Ultimately, image quality is my main goal. I mainly shoot landscapes, portraits and commercial subjects and realize that medium format would suit my style of photography. The new offering by Mamiya seems to be  a good compromise for me, but I have yet to read a full review of this set up. Would the Mamiya DL28 allow the use of a leaf shutter lens to increase the flash sync capability?

Any information would help me decide, but I am really looking for someone who has purchased the Mamiya DL28. I know it is just a combo of the Leaf Aptus II-6 back with the 645AFD III camera with 80mm f2.8 D lens. At $15,000. this seems like a great deal.

Hi
If you check the Mamiya.com website, they also are including a 55 or 150 lens free to this package. The new ADFIII body will accept leaf lenses, the first one being the 80 mm. Leica could be making lenses for Mamiya as well. I use both the Mamiya AFDII with Leaf (rental) & the 1DsMKIII now. I recently sold my ZD camera since the Canon was getting all the use.
Denis
http://www.mamiya.com/mamiya-dl28.html
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 08:27:09 PM by mcfoto » Logged

Denis Montalbetti
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« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2008, 08:58:37 PM »
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Your choice should be dictated by your anticipated use.

I truly like shooting with my Mamiya more than any other camera. I have shot it with Leaf, Phase and the Mamiya digital backs. Last week I also shot with the Leaf AFi-7 camera system. For smaller format I shoot Canon, primarily now 5D but I have also shot with the 1DSMkIII.  I have been published with all of them.

For controlled studio work or maybe location with lighting the Leaf produces amazing images, great color, superb skin tones. But at over iso200 it is not nearly as good as the Phase backs. At 400 and over it is not good at all. I find the Phase backs more versatile and have even shot the P30+ in faster moving action type shots and at iso800 with superb results. And it has much better battery life than the Leaf. I have also found the P45 to be a great back and a great value.

The 1DSMkIII is great and if I were shooting faster action or more unpredictable circumstances that would be my choice. But I find that medium format is the look I want.

I just did a shoot where I shot the Leaf side by side with the 5D and there is no question that the Leaf produced photos that just popped off the page at you, far better than the 5D. Everything about it was superior. The Canon files never came into final consideration for the ad I was shooting.

So for me, the ideal combination at the moment anyway is the Mamiya with a Phase back and Canon 5D for other needs.

Just my opinion, but for me it works.
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Ian L. Sitren
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« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2008, 09:03:22 PM »
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Quote from: John Schweikert
I would say that you should expect the DL28 (AptusII-6) back to go only as high as 200-400 ISO with usable quality.

Detail-wise, the AptusII-6 will deliver more detail than the Canon, but don't expect the difference to be huge, but certainly noticeable.

The Mamiya AFDIII is a good and capable body. Certainly a good value when bundled like this. Not worth $4400 by itself. I just picked up an AFDII for 1/4 that price.

Leaf shutter lenses have been announced by Mamiya, but don't hold your breath. Until they are sitting on shelves, there is no guarantee.

Mamiya may have canceled or indefinitely postponed the 45-90mm AF, so leaf shutters are just a pipe dream until tangible.

Find some way of testing both before committing.
Can we use the older manual focus leaf shutter lenses on the new bodies?




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JDBFreeheel
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« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2008, 09:10:41 PM »
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Quote from: John Schweikert
I just picked up an AFDII for 1/4 that price...

Find some way of testing both before committing.

John was able to get the AFD II for such a good deal because I sold it to him after upgrading to a DL28 system.    

I also agree with John when it comes to testing both.  No one can tell which works for you best except you.

Regarding the Dl28; I did not pay the retail price (long story, but the gist of which is that I upgraded to this after having problems with my zd back).  Though it's been debated, I think even at retail cost of $14999 plus the free lens, it is a solid deal if that is the direction you want to go. Consider that renting a back can cost upwards of $200-$400/day.  Depending on your use and how you pass on your costs to customers, renting might be more cost effective if they pay direct costs, however if you can charge more for the "higher quality" imagery of using a MF digital back, passing on the costs through your fees, a DL28 system might pay for itself within a year or so.

As far as reviews, there are not many out there, mostly because it is not a "system" like other systems such as the AFi.  Look up reviews of the digital back and the camera body separately.  There is some info out there on the Aptus II backs, though much of it is on the Aptus II 7 or 10.  


I am planning to post some files soon, but the holiday rush has caused me to slow down a little on my delivery of these files.  My hunch however is that you are not going to get a definitive answer of whether or purchase the DL28 system or the 5DII. They are very different tools.  I plan to use the DL28 for landscapes and portraits mostly for the detail, DR, and color rendition, but only in ISOs up to 400.  Other work will be the D300 mostly (up through ISO 1600).  I want to push the DL28 but there will always be circumstances where the D300 will be the better tool, despite lower mp, lower detail, etc. The AFD III is a decided step up above the AFD and the AFD II (though the jump is much smaller between the AFD II and AFD III).  The auto focus is much faster, there are three focus points, the ergonomics are better, and the shutter has less lag while seeming to be softer producing less camera shake.  However, it's still a MF camera, so it cannot compete with the focusing system of nearly all DSLRs (not just the high-end ones such as the 5DII or D700/D3, etc. I'm willing to say bet that the focus system of the AFD III is on par with something like the D60).

I don't feel comfortable giving you much advice, so consider the following with very large grains of salt:  If you are just looking to get into MF (to experiment, etc)  I might recommend renting or buying into a used system.  Mamiya is great b/c the glass is quite solid but much less expensive than other brands.  Maybe even an AFD or AFD II and a used back such as an Aptus 22, Phase One P20/P25, or even the old Kodak backs.  If you are looking to shift into MF and want a higher level of support from a vendor, etc, then I think the DL28 system is great.

In the first case, you might be able to upgrade your DSLR to the 5DII while still getting to play with MF digital.  With the second option, it might be a series of prioritizing where one system is purchased while the other is put off for a year or so (with innovation, of course, continuing to climb the ladder).

Feel free to PM me for more details on the DL28 if you're curious.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 09:12:34 PM by JDBFreeheel » Logged
dseelig
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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2008, 09:53:37 PM »
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I have not shot the mamiya I do own a 1ds mk111 and a 5d mk 11. If you are not shooting fast action the 5d mk 11 might be just fine for you then save pennies and get a medium format system as well. I would add one thing of caution their is a responsiveness you get with a 1d d series you do not get with the 5d . David
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2008, 10:50:47 PM »
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I have the Leaf Aptus 65 on AFDIII, which is essentially same as DL28.

Before I shot Nikon's F100 -> D50 -> D200 -> Mamiya ZD -> Leaf ... a $$ update cycle  

Going MF I have noted following;

1. More expensive than F100 and film (advanced amateur), and indeed so was DSLRs,... but the Aptus and AFDIII are keepers for long time. So what if P65+ comes down to same price as I paid for my Aptus? Does it give me that much in quality improvement? Perhaps when a foveon like full frame 645 sensor comes out to affordable price is time to upgrade the Aptus for me...

2. Medium format is slower way to work. That is a benefit to me. DSLRs felt like machine guns, I now plan a photo more which I enjoy.

3. Medium format digital feels like cameras, while DSLRs feel as computers with lens attached. - Ah, sorry please not crucify me!

4. Image quality is significant better than images from DSLRs. Even from ZD's 22MP to Aptus 28.6MP there is a big difference. When noisy at 800 ISO it can at times still be used, if printed smaller because image particles and noise are smaller.

5. For landscapes that I shoot, the 28mm lens is my favourite. It equals 22mm on 35. It is also expensive, although alot cheaper here in Asia than in USA. My 55-100 AF is actuallys sharp. I also like the 300 AF and 80/1.9 MF.

6. I do like the large LCD on my Aptus, it is a very good tool for judging and image. Histograms are very good. When I judge images as good on LCD they consistently look better later at computer.

Above said, medium format digital is not for fast shooting, nor was it with film... for fast DSLR/SLR...

Regards
Anders
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 10:55:19 PM by Anders_HK » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2008, 11:56:39 PM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
Having done a lot of reading about the new crop of medium format cameras, I am seriously considering the Mamiya DL28.  I have been shooting 35mm for over 33 years and currently have a Canon 1Ds (the original 11.1 megapixel) and a lot of Canon gear. It is time for me to upgrade and I am having a hard time trying to decide between staying with Canon 35mm or moving to medium format. I know that as you pack more pixels in a smaller sensor a new crop of problems arise.

Ultimately, image quality is my main goal. I mainly shoot landscapes, portraits and commercial subjects and realize that medium format would suit my style of photography. The new offering by Mamiya seems to be  a good compromise for me, but I have yet to read a full review of this set up. Would the Mamiya DL28 allow the use of a leaf shutter lens to increase the flash sync capability?

Any information would help me decide, but I am really looking for someone who has purchased the Mamiya DL28. I know it is just a combo of the Leaf Aptus II-6 back with the 645AFD III camera with 80mm f2.8 D lens. At $15,000. this seems like a great deal.

really, if you have had no reason to go to MF in the last 33 years, there is no reason to do it now....the 5DII/1dsIII will blow away anything you have used so far...film or digital...i never really liked 35mm film and almost exclusively shot MF film, so DMF was a logical step for me...now with the latest DSLRs,  i really don't see the reason to put up with all the downsides to DMF anymore.....
if you need the ultimate quality (which i doubt since you haven't needed it so far and anything you will buy in DSLR will be much better then what you have had)....get the mamiya...great camera, great price.....
i just don't get why you are thinking about taking that step NOW...now that it is really only a very emotional choice, a personal preference in shooting.....good luck with whatever you are getting....
another idea....get the 5DII and save 12500.....
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Anders_HK
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« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2008, 08:35:03 AM »
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Quote from: pss
really, if you have had no reason to go to MF in the last 33 years, there is no reason to do it now....the 5DII/1dsIII will blow away anything you have used so far...film or digital...i never really liked 35mm film and almost exclusively shot MF film, so DMF was a logical step for me...now with the latest DSLRs,  i really don't see the reason to put up with all the downsides to DMF anymore.....
if you need the ultimate quality (which i doubt since you haven't needed it so far and anything you will buy in DSLR will be much better then what you have had)....get the mamiya...great camera, great price.....
i just don't get why you are thinking about taking that step NOW...now that it is really only a very emotional choice, a personal preference in shooting.....good luck with whatever you are getting....
another idea....get the 5DII and save 12500.....

Hmm.. Perhaps I should sell my Aptus 65 and buy a 5DII and spend the leftover money on nice travel(S) where I can photograph??? Yet... it depends on our eyes. Mine are sensitive. While DLSR is easier, it is not as photographically awarding to myself... and no DSLR has yet come near my Aptus image quality wise per what I have seen... nor in format like. What I seen from 5DII, 1DS MkIII and D3X simple looks as a DSLR but at same MP as lower level MFDBs. There is still a difference in formats.

Downside of digital though, is has made medium format much more $$ to reach, than was with film. Hat off to Mamiya USA and Leaf for marketing a competitive product as head on to top of line DSLRs  

Above said, on another note... I do enjoy my Sigma DP1 also, which is pocket wise a feeling of mediumformat when processing the files... simply a totally different sensor type... but that is a different subject...  

1DsMkIII/5DII vs. Mamiya D28??? Same as 35mm vs. 645  

Anders
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Snook
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« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2008, 09:01:44 AM »
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Quote from: pss
really, if you have had no reason to go to MF in the last 33 years, there is no reason to do it now....the 5DII/1dsIII will blow away anything you have used so far...film or digital...i never really liked 35mm film and almost exclusively shot MF film, so DMF was a logical step for me...now with the latest DSLRs,  i really don't see the reason to put up with all the downsides to DMF anymore.....
if you need the ultimate quality (which i doubt since you haven't needed it so far and anything you will buy in DSLR will be much better then what you have had)....get the mamiya...great camera, great price.....
i just don't get why you are thinking about taking that step NOW...now that it is really only a very emotional choice, a personal preference in shooting.....good luck with whatever you are getting....
another idea....get the 5DII and save 12500.....

I have to disagree with Paul here.
The MF is Clearly Better.
The Question is what are you going to print to.
`The 5DII nor the 1DsMIII are going to beat MF quality. JUst the extra 2 bits makes a HUGE difference. The dynamic range also BLOWS 5D/1Ds?? away.
Best thing is thing is to go rent and try it out for your self. That is a no brainer and might save you a lot of money anyhow!

Coming from 35mm you will be more than satisfied with a 5DII or 1DsMIII.. But they are not as good as MF. Period!
 Just really depends on what you printing.
For Most of my work and where I live the P30 is Over Kill and you cannot notice the difference in Print of magazine or catalogue.
But on my Gallery Prints I am doing right now to sell, There is a BIG difference!
Do yourself a favor and go try a back out for yourself.. You will get all kinds of different opinions here, but only you know what you will need...:+}

Snook  

:coffee:
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 09:45:29 AM by Snook » Logged
httivals
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« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2008, 09:24:14 AM »
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diglloyd's paid subscription site (http://www.diglloyd.com/diglloyd/blog.html) has a review of the Mamiya DL28.  The subscription site is well worth the price, IMHO.  Great information.  He also makes comparisons to the 1DsIII and other high rez DSLRs.
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jerryrock
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« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2008, 09:39:09 AM »
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Thank you for the input so far. I do not want to start a war here, just looking for more information. My reasoning to switch at this point is that I truly believe that given current technology, 35mm digital has reached a megapixel limit with the current sensor size. Compared to the !Ds Mark III sensor 35 x 24 (6.4 m), the Leaf Aptus sensor is 44 x 33 (7.2 m). Canon had to actually reduce the size of the photosites from 7.2 m on the 16 megapixel 1Ds Mark II to 6.4 m on the Mark III to pack in 21 megapixels. To me this seems like reverse engineering.

I am also looking for an image with great tonal range, including shadow detail that will print 20" x 30" or larger.

The Leaf Aptus II-6 digital back does not use an anti-aliasing filter and produces sharper images straight from the sensor. Because the system is "modular", you can upgrade the digital back and lenses even going with a different manufacturer.

THe downside is that the iso range is only 50 - 800 and flash sync speed is limited using the focal plane shutter. From what I understand, adding a leaf shutter lens allows flash sync of up to 1/1000 sec.

Some examples from the Leaf Aptus II-6 back would really be helpful.

Jerry

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Gerald J Skrocki
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« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2008, 10:24:12 AM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
Thank you for the input so far. I do not want to start a war here, just looking for more information. My reasoning to switch at this point is that I truly believe that given current technology, 35mm digital has reached a megapixel limit with the current sensor size. Compared to the !Ds Mark III sensor 35 x 24 (6.4 m), the Leaf Aptus sensor is 44 x 33 (7.2 m). Canon had to actually reduce the size of the photosites from 7.2 m on the 16 megapixel 1Ds Mark II to 6.4 m on the Mark III to pack in 21 megapixels. To me this seems like reverse engineering.

I am also looking for an image with great tonal range, including shadow detail that will print 20" x 30" or larger.

The Leaf Aptus II-6 digital back does not use an anti-aliasing filter and produces sharper images straight from the sensor. Because the system is "modular", you can upgrade the digital back and lenses even going with a different manufacturer.

THe downside is that the iso range is only 50 - 800 and flash sync speed is limited using the focal plane shutter. From what I understand, adding a leaf shutter lens allows flash sync of up to 1/1000 sec.

Some examples from the Leaf Aptus II-6 back would really be helpful.

Jerry

You are not going to like iso 800 on any MF camera I know of....
Also the only Leafshutter lens, I believe,  are the RZII Mamiya,Hassleblad *electronic shutter,or the AFY6/HY6 whatever it's called From Leaf or sinar.
The mamiya lens will probably never come out knowing them and seeing how the MF world is slowly dying...?? Hopefully not true for me and you, but I would not hold my breath!!!
Unfortunely the older leaf shutter lens for the mamiya,which I have all of them, do not work..
I do not understand why someone does not Invent some kind of adaptor to fire the leafshutter lens!!!!!
Or why Mamiya did not make the AFDIII able to use the older leafshutter lens!!! Morons!

Snook


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H1/A75 Guy
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« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2008, 10:24:41 AM »
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http://www.leaf-photography.com/news/davidtaylor
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jimgolden
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« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2008, 01:52:42 PM »
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5Dmk2 - done.
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JDBFreeheel
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« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2008, 02:14:05 PM »
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Quote from: jimgolden
5Dmk2 - done.

With respect, given the scope of this decision, especially as a working pro, I think the OP deserves some explanation of this advice.  No?
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ziocan
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« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2008, 02:41:36 PM »
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Quote from: JDBFreeheel
With respect, given the scope of this decision, especially as a working pro, I think the OP deserves some explanation of this advice.  No?
I agree. Just saying: I got a 20mp+ dslr and done, is not going to be of any help to anybody.


On the Lloyd web site, someone mentioned above, there is a pretty decent review of the DL28. there is also a review of the a900 and 1ds3, though there are not direct comparisons between the DL28 and the two dslr, there are some photos of the same subjects and landscapes. I think someone can get an idea of what is still missing and may ever miss on a DSLR file compared to a DB file. The a900 review is not very well made, but I think the fee the web site demand, is still a good deal for the access to all the informations on a lot of professional equipment.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 05:18:29 PM by ziocan » Logged
jerryrock
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« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2008, 02:56:49 PM »
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Yair Shahar from Leaf, part of Kodak's Graphic Communications Group, was kind enough to send me four image samples from the Aptus 65 back. He states the Aptus 65 uses the same sensor but the AII6 adds a better screen along with faster capture rate.

In any case the files are stunning. Thanks Yair!

Jerry
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Gerald J Skrocki
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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2008, 03:19:43 PM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
Yair Shahar from Leaf, part of Kodak's Graphic Communications Group, was kind enough to send me four image samples from the Aptus 65 back. He states the Aptus 65 uses the same sensor but the AII6 adds a better screen along with faster capture rate.

In any case the files are stunning. Thanks Yair!

Jerry

You are welcome, glad I could help

Yair
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