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Author Topic: 1Ds Mark III or Mamiya DL28  (Read 15966 times)
KevinA
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« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2008, 12:00:28 PM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
Having done a lot of reading about the new crop of medium format cameras, I am seriously considering the Mamiya DL28.  I have been shooting 35mm for over 33 years and currently have a Canon 1Ds (the original 11.1 megapixel) and a lot of Canon gear. It is time for me to upgrade and I am having a hard time trying to decide between staying with Canon 35mm or moving to medium format. I know that as you pack more pixels in a smaller sensor a new crop of problems arise.

Ultimately, image quality is my main goal. I mainly shoot landscapes, portraits and commercial subjects and realize that medium format would suit my style of photography. The new offering by Mamiya seems to be  a good compromise for me, but I have yet to read a full review of this set up. Would the Mamiya DL28 allow the use of a leaf shutter lens to increase the flash sync capability?

Any information would help me decide, but I am really looking for someone who has purchased the Mamiya DL28. I know it is just a combo of the Leaf Aptus II-6 back with the 645AFD III camera with 80mm f2.8 D lens. At $15,000. this seems like a great deal.

As a Canon 1DsmkIII user I would say doing what you do a MF solution is preferable. Yes a 35mm digital is very versatile and will cover most of what you want. What I would say about all singing and all dancing things like the Canon is when a picture fails it's mostly due to the all singing and all dancing stuff not getting it right. I'm not convinced my 1DsmkIII can always find infinity, you can't tell looking through the viewfinder it's a tad out and if you are working fast you think it's all OK. I seriously got a higher percent sharp with a Pentax 67 with it's big flappy mirror, 100 iso film and slower lenses than my Canon does shooting 400iso with faster lenses.
I think the latest crop of high pixel 35mm cameras rather than closes the gap with MF, just goes to highlight the advantages of slower working MF.
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Kevin.
jimgolden
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« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2008, 12:54:47 PM »
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Quote from: JDBFreeheel
With respect, given the scope of this decision, especially as a working pro, I think the OP deserves some explanation of this advice.  No?

put one thru the paces and look @ the price difference - the choice will be obvious. Keep in mind OP probably has a set of EF lenses and other system accessories. also 33 yrs w/ 35mm format is a long time.

I LOVE my H3 but for the price I wouldn't have gone in that direction if the 5Dmk2 was available...

this is my measly humble opinion as a working pro...
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JDBFreeheel
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« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2008, 05:14:36 PM »
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Quote from: jimgolden
put one thru the paces and look @ the price difference - the choice will be obvious. Keep in mind OP probably has a set of EF lenses and other system accessories. also 33 yrs w/ 35mm format is a long time.

I LOVE my H3 but for the price I wouldn't have gone in that direction if the 5Dmk2 was available...

this is my measly humble opinion as a working pro...

I hear you and understand your point.  

My point was that without an explanation, you're not helping the OP, you're simply giving an opinion statement.  The OP, as I read it, was looking for advice and explanations of, given how he uses his tools, on what might be the better fit.  Without explaining WHY the 5DII was better, the OP is not able to make an informed decision.

My D300 is no 5DII but I use good glass, and I still see a noticeable difference between my DL28 (and my ZD before that) and my D300.  Granted the D300 is half the megapixels of the DL28 (and the 5DII), but I think the image quality is still there with the MF over 35mm, even with the advancements of the 5DII.  

To each their own.  I'll happily use my d300 when it seems to be the better tool and happily use the DL28 when it feels right.  Cost not withstanding (and, I understand it always is), I'd get both a 5DII (I, admittedly covet it, and if I didn't have all Nikon glass, I'd go there) and a MF digitial back like my Aptus II 6.

And, I'm not yet a working pro, just an aspiring one.

-Josh
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jerryrock
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« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2008, 06:18:09 PM »
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I am not considering the 5D2. I do not need video in my camera and see it as an experimental model that is already experiencing problems with black dots in highlight areas and vertical banding. This is exactly why I want to move to MF. I do believe that 35mm has reached it's limit packing megapixels in a 24 x 36 sensor. Canon tried to increase ISO sensitivity with the 5D2 and this is resulting in the blooming and noise that is apparently not under control.

A larger sensor is a better idea. You get better bit depth and less noise by increasing sensor size while keeping photosites the same size. I see now more MF sensors are also including microlenses to increase ISO sensitivity as evidenced by the new Dalsa 48 mp sensor as well as the Kodak 31 mp sensor in the Hasselblad H3D.

The Mamiya DL28 package seems reasonably priced for what you get. I am also looking at the Hassleblad H3D-31 which has just been reduced to about $18000.

Jerry
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 06:19:31 PM by jerryrock » Logged

Gerald J Skrocki
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JDBFreeheel
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« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2008, 06:23:33 PM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
The Mamiya DL28 package seems reasonably priced for what you get. I am also looking at the Hassleblad H3D-31 which has just been reduced to about $18000.

Jerry

Jerry,

I am in New Hampshire (raced the winter storm as I made my way from the SF area) and hope to take some tough natural light shots tomorrow with the new blanket of snow.  

One potential issue to consider is that despite the similarities of "starting" price of the DL28 for $14999 and the H3D-31 for $17999 is the additional cost of lenses beyond the base 80mm.  Hasselblad glass is fantastic, so not taking away from that, the Mamiya glass, which generally holds it own, is much cheaper, certainly in the used market.

-Josh
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 06:24:01 PM by JDBFreeheel » Logged
Snook
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« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2008, 07:04:41 PM »
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Quote from: JDBFreeheel
Jerry,

I am in New Hampshire (raced the winter storm as I made my way from the SF area) and hope to take some tough natural light shots tomorrow with the new blanket of snow.  

One potential issue to consider is that despite the similarities of "starting" price of the DL28 for $14999 and the H3D-31 for $17999 is the additional cost of lenses beyond the base 80mm.  Hasselblad glass is fantastic, so not taking away from that, the Mamiya glass, which generally holds it own, is much cheaper, certainly in the used market.

-Josh


I got an e-mail at the studio today saying 12,495 for the Leaf Mamiya combo..
I guess it is How low will they go in a horrible economy where Not many are buying such High price items I guess, at least until we see where all this is really going.

12,495 is a nice price if you ask me.

Snook
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 07:05:22 PM by Snook » Logged
elitegroup
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« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2008, 07:15:25 PM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
I am also looking at the Hassleblad H3D-31 which has just been reduced to about $18000.

Jerry

You can get an H3DII-39 kit for $17,999 from Calumet Clearance center @ http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-H3DII-39-wi...93%3A1|294%3A50

or an H3DII-31 kit for $14,995 @ http://cgi.ebay.com/Hasselblad-H3DII-31-80...93%3A1|294%3A50

that's If you want to save $3000 USD for a demo/refurb unit.
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jimgolden
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« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2008, 09:04:15 PM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
I am not considering the 5D2.

well there ya go...

if ya dont need the flash sync Mam will be more affordable in the long run...Leaf backs make great looking files...
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lisa_r
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« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2008, 07:20:57 PM »
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Quote from: jimgolden
...Leaf backs make great looking files...

I saw the samples Yair sent and they look nice. The skin looks amazing - now I know why my friends who shoot beauty use Leaf! However, the shadows do have a fair amount of noise in them - even at 100 ISO. the shirt on the girl in the portrait is a good example.

For Snook and others considering the 1Ds3/5D2, I came across these test shots from the 5D2:

http://www.afashionshooter.com/wp-content/...g_0015-copy.jpg

http://www.afashionshooter.com/wp-content/...08_0891_web.jpg

http://www.afashionshooter.com/wp-content/...ina_sm_0879.jpg
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 07:21:47 PM by lisa_r » Logged
RobertJ
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« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2008, 07:38:09 PM »
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Yeah, they're nice, but they're downsized.  I'd get the same results from a 20D.

It's always nice to see a moustache on a girl, isn't it...
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lisa_r
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« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2008, 08:04:00 PM »
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Quote from: T-1000
Yeah, they're nice, but they're downsized.  I'd get the same results from a 20D.

It's always nice to see a moustache on a girl, isn't it...

Such a pleasant guy, T-1000.
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RobertJ
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« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2008, 10:07:39 PM »
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I'm not being grumpy, just sarcastic.  I know they're not your images lisa_r.

You have to admit it's getting a little repetitive for everyone to show off their web-sized sample images of a newly released camera, and say "wow, look how great the files from this camera are!"
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jerryrock
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« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2008, 09:07:42 AM »
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This thread was started to help me decide between the 1Ds Mark III and the Mamiya DL28.  The 5D2 is NOT in the picture.
If anyone has experience or images taken with the DL28, please post them here.

Jerry
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Gerald J Skrocki
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lisa_r
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« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2008, 09:50:04 AM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
I know that as you pack more pixels in a smaller sensor a new crop of problems arise.

Ultimately, image quality is my main goal. I mainly shoot landscapes, portraits...

Jerry

Hey Jerry, I linked to those files because I have both these Canons, and the IQ is essentially the same. You expressed concern about IQ when packing smaller pixels in the above statement. Thought it might be helpful. Anyway, I'll cease.
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bcooter
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« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2008, 11:51:45 AM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
Having done a lot of reading about the new crop of medium format cameras, I am seriously considering the Mamiya DL28.  I have been shooting 35mm for over 33 years and currently have a Canon 1Ds (the original 11.1 megapixel) and a lot of Canon gear. It is time for me to upgrade and I am having a hard time trying to decide between staying with Canon 35mm or moving to medium format. I know that as you pack more pixels in a smaller sensor a new crop of problems arise.

Ultimately, image quality is my main goal. I mainly shoot landscapes, portraits and commercial subjects and realize that medium format would suit my style of photography. The new offering by Mamiya seems to be  a good compromise for me, but I have yet to read a full review of this set up. Would the Mamiya DL28 allow the use of a leaf shutter lens to increase the flash sync capability?

Any information would help me decide, but I am really looking for someone who has purchased the Mamiya DL28. I know it is just a combo of the Leaf Aptus II-6 back with the 645AFD III camera with 80mm f2.8 D lens. At $15,000. this seems like a great deal.


If you money burning a hole in your pocket and  think a new camera will change your photography, then take a deep breath and go look in the bone pile of KEH, or any dealer and see what the ex-new shimmy shiney $30,000 cameras go for today.

In fact in the world of medium format a 31mpx p30 on a Mamiya afd II or a contax,  under most conditions produces the same image quality as a new p30+ on the Mamiya III.   You can pretty much say the same for Leaf, Sinar and Hasselblad.

You gain some features on new equipment, slightly better iso, slightly better lcd's,  but you also double to triple your costs and like buying a new car, once you turn the key the depreciation takes a steep drop.

Same with the dslrs.  The 1ds3 is better than a 1ds2 but not jaw dropping better, the Nikon D700 is exactly the same image quality as a D3, the 5d2 the same as the 1ds3, for 1/2 the price.

If it's ultimate image quality you want then open your wallet for $50,000 but if your looking at a price compromise, then look to the world of used.

Most used medium format cameras and backs don't have 10 million shots fired through them and will usually last for a long, long time.  

If you could test every camera made in every condition you work, you will probably find that not one camera will do everything.  The Canons cross more territory than any system, but they're not perfect, nothing is.

You'll also probably find that a 25mpx sony, or a 5d2 along with a used digital back will give you more options (obviously some form of backup) and equal or  less costs than spending $15,000 to $18,000 on a new medium format system.

Now if you want a new system, go for it and enjoy yourself, or if there is some new feature you must have to do your work, then it' might be worth it, but for image quality, the medium format sensors that are on the market today haven't changed in a few years, so the final "quality" will all be very close to the same, regardless of vintage, or brand.  The same holds true for medium format cameras.  They all have single point (or almost single point) autofocus, they all have a comparable lens set, though the H system has the most options for lenses with leaf shutters and autofocus.

If you work a lot, under high expectations and only have one camera body and lens set, then look to the Hasselblad H1 or 2 (chose your own back), as in the world of medium format that is the only camera that is in rental in almost every world market.

This is just one person's suggestion, but keep in mind that most of the people you see  posting in this medium format area are not working with the latest and greatest they are sitll in the 22 to 31mpx range of cameras and I assume working quite successfully.


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jerryrock
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« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2008, 02:24:52 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
If you money burning a hole in your pocket and  think a new camera will change your photography, then take a deep breath and go look in the bone pile of KEH, or any dealer and see what the ex-new shimmy shiney $30,000 cameras go for today.

Thanks for the psychoanalysis, but I am more interested in the opinion of someone who has actually used the Mamiya DL28.


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Gerald J Skrocki
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carstenw
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« Reply #36 on: December 22, 2008, 05:38:41 PM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
Thanks for the psychoanalysis, but I am more interested in the opinion of someone who has actually used the Mamiya DL28.

As someone already mentioned, the getdpi forums have a few members with Mamiyas and Phase One 645s, and I believe there are one or two with Leaf backs, which gets pretty close to the DL28 setup: http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10
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JDBFreeheel
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« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2008, 04:31:58 PM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
Thanks for the psychoanalysis, but I am more interested in the opinion of someone who has actually used the Mamiya DL28.

Jerry, as John noted recently (and I've responded previously), I do own the DL28 system.  I meant to get some sample shots up by yesterday, but snow and travel delays in the East Cost this past weekend have put me a few days behind.  I'll get a few quick shots up soon, and then a longer report once I've played with it long enough to feel more comfortable.

As many say in their thread, quit writing and post some shots, so I'll get to that.

-Josh
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jerryrock
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« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2008, 04:37:07 PM »
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Quote from: JDBFreeheel
Jerry, as John noted recently (and I've responded previously), I do own the DL28 system.  I meant to get some sample shots up by yesterday, but snow and travel delays in the East Cost this past weekend have put me a few days behind.  I'll get a few quick shots up soon, and then a longer report once I've played with it long enough to feel more comfortable.

As many say in their thread, quit writing and post some shots, so I'll get to that.

-Josh

Thank you! I look forward to your experience and images with the Mamiya. I live in the NorthEast and have been iced and snowed in as well.

Jerry
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Gerald J Skrocki
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