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Author Topic: Cannon 5D--my camera?  (Read 4314 times)
BernardLanguillier
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« on: September 08, 2005, 02:21:14 AM »
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Hi there,

Although no actual in-depth reviews of the camera have been published yet, the 5D appears to be a very good overall pick if you can afford one.

I don't really see how you could outgrow this camera quickly since it does seem to offer a balanced set of features with what is likely to be top notch image quality.

Regards,
Bernard
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Lisa Nikodym
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« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2005, 02:07:05 PM »
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I read here that it doesn't come with "weather stripping" like the 20D or better cameras, for instance. Is that going to be a really bad thing?

For what it's worth, I've used SLRs and DSLRs for over a decade now (currently the Nikon D70), none of them "pro grade" construction, and I've never had a problem due to insufficient weather stripping, ruggedness, etc.  My cameras have been dropped numerous times, been out in moderate rain for a few minutes at a time, and had various other nonoptimal experiences, and have survived them fine.  I wouldn't worry about construction unless you need utter reliability under the roughest conditions or plan to shoot tens of thousands of frames a year.

Heck, no need to worry about outgrowing a 5D anytime soon!  It sounds like a great camera (from what we've seen so far), light years beyond what you're currently using.  It would be hard for most anyone to outgrow it, except for those who insist on really top-of-the-line stuff.

Les's comment about getting a reduced-frame DSLR if you're using less-than-professional-grade (read: many $$$) lenses is a fine one, too.

Lisa
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Ronny Nilsen
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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2005, 03:11:59 AM »
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Hit up a reduced frame dSLR, it will hide the faults of poorer quality lenses and save you a lot of money.  Also tend to be a lot lighter for when you're doing a long day of shooting.

This is true, but my experience is that even with a reduced sensor size (I have a 20D) some of my old lenses was not good enough. The worst example was my old EF 75-300mm f/4-5.6 III USM. When compared to my new EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM with a 1.4 extender (I took a picture of the same motive with both lenses) the difference in quality was obvious even looking at a thumbnail!
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giles
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2005, 08:20:38 PM »
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I read up on the new Cannon 5D a little. Do you think I will outgrow this camera too in 6 months? Or, do you think it is a good camera that will allow me to NOT invest anymore money for a while and grow with my photographic desires? Also, how much will it cost to get the lenses I can work with until I save up more money for a better range?
I'm sure Canon 5D will be a very nice camera.  You wouldn't outgrow it in six months, but you likely would not outgrow a Rebel XT in six months either.  On the other hand, I'll warrant that you'll be wanting more lenses and other equipment within six months to add to the capability of whatever camera you buy!

So ... some general recommendations -- take with a pinch of salt, your milage may vary, adjust to taste, etc:

    a) determine how much money you have to spend

    Without doing this, it's hard to limit the possibilities.  If money were no object you could buy one of each model and keep the ones you preferred, and you wouldn't need to ask for advice! :-)

    b) rather than starting with "which model do I want", start with "which camera system do I want".

    With a SLR you're buying into a system of cameras, lenses, flash equipment and accessories.  Some people prefer Nikon, some people prefer Canon.  Both work and neither are bad choices.  (Some people prefer other manufacturers, but in DSLRs Nikon and Canon are the big two currently.)

    c) think about what focal length lenses you want

    Unfortunately this becomes complex due to the "crop factor" on models like the Canon 20D and the Nikon D70s.  A wide angle lens (Canon 10-22mm, Nikon 12-24mm) for these models will not work on a full frame camera body.

    Note that a 20D plus a 10-22mm lens is still a lot cheaper than a 5D -- buying an EF-S lens can be sensible even if one day you aspire to a full frame camera.  Nikon don't presently have a full frame DSLR: their top of the line model uses the same 1.5x crop factor that is consistent across their range.

    d) look at Bob Atkins' comparison of the 20D and 5D, which I think has a good summary of the strengths and weakness of each choice

    http://bobatkins.com/photography/digital/c..._5d_or_20d.html

    e) spend some time on the web sites of the online retailers such as Adorama and B&H to see what cameras and lenses sell for.  Relate this to your budget, increase the budget, iterate.  :-)

Have fun, and remember equipment is only what we use to take photographs, not an end in itself.  (OK, there are collectors of cameras who are not photographers, but they're rare around these forums. :-)

Regards,

Giles
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giles
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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2005, 09:30:14 PM »
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Does the D5 come with a lens, or is it only a back?
It's just a body.

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How much will I need to invest in lenses if I buy the D5 to get a pretty good range of useability and quality pictures?

I hate giving unhelpful answers, but the answer to that is "how long is a piece of string".  We (well, I at least) have little idea what you want to photograph.

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Do you think a D20 is something I should look into rather than the D5? How much is a D20 with a good set of starter lenses?

Yes.  At the end of Bob Atkins' 20D v. 5D piece (URL in my previous response above) he suggested three lenses.  Other alternatives would include:

1. 17-40mm f/4, 50mm f/1.8, 70-200mm f/4
2. 18-55mm kit lens, 75-300mm [ "consumer" lenses these ]
3. 16-35mm f/2.8, 50mm f/1.4, 70-300mm DO IS
4. ...

Check the prices on these.  You'll find they vary a lot.  Which I why I suggest that you first establish a budget, then work out what you want to do, then start figuring out what to buy to do the sort of photography that you want.

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What will I need to relearn using a "full frame" camera compared to the F828?

The biggest difference between the 20D and the 5D is the "crop factor" and the effective field of view.  The focal lengths you're familiar with apply to the 5D.  For the 20D, there is a 1.6x factor that you need to consider.  That both helps and hinders: see Bob Atkins' comparison for a good explanation with examples.

Giles

[ Edit: correct typo in lens zoom range. --giles ]
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giles
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« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2005, 06:32:03 AM »
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So my F828 is considred full frame?
No -- it has a quite small sensor, which is part of the reason it can't limit depth of field as you wish it to.

The confusion arises because the focal length of point & shoot cameras is typically quoted as "35mm equivalent",  i.e. exactly what an equivalent lens on the 5D would see.  (So far so good.)  Then along come cameras like the 20D which have a smaller sensor but use lenses that are also used on full frame cameras (film, 1Ds, 1Ds-II, 5D).  Users of the D30, D60, 10D, 300D, 20D, and 350D have to get used to multiplying the focal length of their lenses by 1.6 to get an approximation of what they're going to see in images taken with each lens.

Bob Atkins's article shows the effect of the crop factor with diagrams.  If that explanation didn't "click", try Michael's tutorial on this site:

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutoria....g.shtml

The F828 has a "28-200mm zoom".  This is equivalent (depth of field issues aside) to a 28-200mm zoom on a 5D (or 35mm film SLR, or 1Ds etc).  The equivalent effective focal lengths on a 1.6x crop camera would require a 17-125mm lens.

Lastly, 8mp from a 20D is quite a lot. How large do you want to print? What size do you print to from your F828?  Lower noise from the 20D (which despite being less than "full frame" has a much larger sensor than your F828) will help you print larger from the same number of megapixels.

More pixels is nicer, but it's not everything.

Regards,

Giles
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jani
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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2005, 08:09:00 AM »
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One other thing, if someone want to post a few pictures of the 20D's ability to create shallow DoF, that would be nice. It would be nice too if you could use a lens that was around the same capability as the Sony F828's focal lenghts, or a couple of leneses if you need to match the F828's, since it's fixed lens has a pretty good range.
While I don't have the time to do test shots exactly according to spec, I have some images that may give you some idea.

As you know, the DoF effect also depends on print size and viewing distance, and since the 20D also tempts you (well, me at least) to take a smaller part of the picture and print it larger, DoF can be pretty shallow.

All of the images have been through an unsharp mask, 0.2 px radius, 300%.

First, a test image showing slight front-focusing with the 50mm f/1.4. All images with these lens were taken at ISO 100.

Full image, converted to 20% pixel size:

:

The same lens and subject, at f/4:





No comments are necessary, I hope.


Real subject, taken with EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS at 70mm and f/5, ISO 200, 20% pixel size:



100% pixel size crop of the lower left corner from the same image:




Now portraiture. I took these to show DoF differences for the friend I took these images of. EF 24-70mm f/2.8L at 24mm and f/2.8 and f/16 respectively, ISO 100, 20% pixel size:






And last, a flower offset against the background of a lake, EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS at 153mm and f/5, ISO 400, 20% pixel size:




In case someone wants to criticize, no, these are not meant to show a "best effort", I haven't taken my time with these. While criticism may still be helpful towards getting there, I feel that's inappropriate in this thread.
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dwdallam
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« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2005, 03:04:16 AM »
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OK I get it. So the reason the F828 is going to see the same thing as the 35MM or full frame 5D is because Sony made the lens for the sensor size of the F828, and they wanted people to see what they were taking without a crop effect?

OK, as far as Deep DoF goes, since my lens and sensor are made for each other and are = to 35MM, the reason for the deep DoF is purely the small sensor?

Last, how much more of a shallow DoF do you get with a 20D compared to a 5D, F828. I take it that the 5D will give the same DoF as a 35MM with the same lens and all other things being equal? The 20D a little less, and my F828 much less.

Does anyone have a rough general %age of shallower DoF compared to the F828, 20D, and the 5D? This should just be off the top of your head from your experiences.

I'm going to do my DoF test tomorrow and I'll post it.
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dwdallam
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2005, 01:59:22 AM »
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For those who have told me in fairly suttle ways that my experience and needs have already outpaced what the Sony F828 can do, I have accepted that now. I think I have outgrown it too, and I've only had it for about 6 months. I'm glad I only have about 850 invested in it total.

I need more zoom and I need more Fstops than the Sony's F8 max. All the other stuff that comes with a better camera is nice too-- simply put--overall image quality.

I read up on the new Cannon 5D a little. Do you think I will outgrow this camera too in 6 months? Or, do you think it is a good camera that will allow me to NOT invest anymore money for a while and grow with my photographic desires? Also, how much will it cost to get the lenses I can work with until I save up more money for a better range?

Last, from your knowledge, what are the negatives that might annoy you? I read here that it doesn't come with "weather stripping" like the 20D or better cameras, for instance. Is that going to be a really bad thing?

As always, thanks much for your information.
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LesGirrior
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« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2005, 01:33:33 PM »
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My 2 pennies:

Hit up a reduced frame dSLR, it will hide the faults of poorer quality lenses and save you a lot of money.  Also tend to be a lot lighter for when you're doing a long day of shooting.

But if money/weight isn't a factor then go for it.  You will not outgrow something like this anytime soon.

My understanding is that the body build quality is on par with the 20D and lacking the high durability and weather sealing of proffessional equipment.

Don't buy on impulse.  Make sure you get what will be right for you.


***Sidenote:  I've heard that the Sonys are great for Infrared photography in their night shot mode.  Worth checking out if you want to do more things with it.

Theres a great article on IR at: http://dpfwiw.com/ir.htm
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boku
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« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2005, 06:33:10 PM »
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No, you won't outgrow the 5D, but then you won't outgrow a 20D.

If you needs are for very large prints, the 5D has the resolution advantage (at a price). Beyond that, they are somewhat similar (I know the differenced, but they are not radical, certainly nothing that would sway one to the 5D out of fear of outgrowing the 20D).

I may upgrade to a 5D, but not for resolution - I want even more than the 5D offers. I just like the larger viewfinder, exchangable focus screens, full-frame imager, and other stuff. Even at that, I am finding it hard to justify the price. What I actually want is a 5D with about 20 MP for $3000. I would run for that one!!

I've had my 20D in the rain a few times and dropped it once - still ticking, no problems. [This message must be deleted when I go to eBay it next year.] It is well built and I would expect the same from the 5D - they are cut from the same cloth.
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Lisa Nikodym
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2005, 10:59:23 AM »
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This is true, but my experience is that even with a reduced sensor size (I have a 20D) some of my old lenses was not good enough. The worst example was my old EF 75-300mm f/4-5.6 III USM. When compared to my new EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM with a 1.4 extender (I took a picture of the same motive with both lenses) the difference in quality was obvious even looking at a thumbnail!

It's true that *some* lenses still won't be good enough.  However, since lenses virtually always get worse as you move from the middle out to the corners, you always avoid the worst parts of them with a reduced-frame sensor, so a "not quite good enough lens" with full frame is likely a "plenty good" lens with reduced frame.

Lisa
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dwdallam
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« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2005, 08:53:40 PM »
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My 2 pennies:

Hit up a reduced frame dSLR, it will hide the faults of poorer quality lenses and save you a lot of money.  Also tend to be a lot lighter for when you're doing a long day of shooting.

But if money/weight isn't a factor then go for it.  You will not outgrow something like this anytime soon.

My understanding is that the body build quality is on par with the 20D and lacking the high durability and weather sealing of proffessional equipment.

Don't buy on impulse.  Make sure you get what will be right for you.


***Sidenote:  I've heard that the Sonys are great for Infrared photography in their night shot mode.  Worth checking out if you want to do more things with it.

Theres a great article on IR at: http://dpfwiw.com/ir.htm
Yeah, nice idea! Also, I'm reevaluating the F828 again. I've been looking at professional shots of the marina where I go, and their DoF at the ranges they have to shoot at are none different than mine are. Also, with my ND filter on, I can shoot in high daylight and get some nice motion blurs, even thought the F828 only goes to F8. The 3 stop ND filter allows me to slow the shutter to an effective blur in daylight. Not what I could get with a better camera, but for cars and things of that sort, decent---or people walking.  

But I really hate the Deep DoF that it has except on really close shots even when using 90% of my zoom. Even on close shots the DoF is much deeper than your guys nice digitals.
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dwdallam
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« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2005, 09:05:33 PM »
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OK this is all great information. I ahve lots of questions, but first let me toss out one mroe related question before I summarize everything and then ask the questions that you all have made come up in my head.

Does the D5 come with a lens, or is it only a back? How much will I need to invest in lenses if I buy the D5 to get a pretty good range of useability and quality pictures?

What will I need to relearn using a "full frame" camera compared to the F828?

Do you think a D20 is something I should look into rather than the D5? How much is a D20 with a good set of starter lenses?
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dwdallam
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« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2005, 05:10:25 AM »
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Quote
Does the D5 come with a lens, or is it only a back?
It's just a body.

Quote
How much will I need to invest in lenses if I buy the D5 to get a pretty good range of useability and quality pictures?

I hate giving unhelpful answers, but the answer to that is "how long is a piece of string".  We (well, I at least) have little idea what you want to photograph.

Quote
Do you think a D20 is something I should look into rather than the D5? How much is a D20 with a good set of starter lenses?

Yes.  At the end of Bob Atkins' 20D v. 5D piece (URL in my previous response above) he suggested three lenses.  Other alternatives would include:

1. 17-40mm f/4, 50mm f/1.8, 70-200mm f/4
2. 18-55mm kit lens, 75-300mm [ "consumer" lenses these ]
3. 16-35mm f/2.8, 50mm f/1.4, 70-300mm DO IS
4. ...

Check the prices on these.  You'll find they vary a lot.  Which I why I suggest that you first establish a budget, then work out what you want to do, then start figuring out what to buy to do the sort of photography that you want.

Quote
What will I need to relearn using a "full frame" camera compared to the F828?

The biggest difference between the 20D and the 5D is the "crop factor" and the effective field of view.  The focal lengths you're familiar with apply to the 5D.  For the 20D, there is a 1.6x factor that you need to consider.  That both helps and hinders: see Bob Atkins' comparison for a good explanation with examples.

Giles

[ Edit: correct typo in lens zoom range. --giles ]
So my F828 is considred full frame? I'm confused as to exactly waht Crop Factor means. I'm understanding it as a comparison to a 35 MM camera at a specific focal length, plus the smaller sensor size vs the 5D's larger size, which means you have to have more telephoto to get the same telephoto effect than you would have with a 20D?

One other thing, if someone want to post a few pictures of the 20D's ability to create shallow DoF, that would be nice. It would be nice too if you could use a lens that was around the same capability as the Sony F828's focal lenghts, or a couple of leneses if you need to match the F828's, since it's fixed lens has a pretty good range. I'll retake those shots at a static range and use the zoom to get in close tommorrow. Then we can see the real world difference between a 30mm sensor and a 8mm sensor.

After reading that conparison between the 5D and the 20D, I'm feeling like some of you--kind of stuck in the middle. Do I invest 3000 in the 20D and lenses with much better image quality than my F828, but still only 8MPs, or do I wait for the next incarnation of the Cannon series? Or, do I get a multiplier for my F828 and just get by for now and see how my prints turn out? I really do want the better sensor though that the 20D comes with. what is troublesome about the 5D is that you ned more telephoto power to do the same thing with the 20D. Not only that, but after a couple of lenses, I'd be into the 5500 dollar rage.

I think I'm with Bob here. I'd like the 20D wtih 20 MPs hahaha, or even 13.
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giles
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« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2005, 06:43:12 AM »
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I think I'm with Bob here. I'd like the 20D wtih 20 MPs hahaha, or even 13.
Oh, me too.  A 12mp 20D replacement assuming similar noise levels ...  :cool:

But that's speculation.  Nikon's D2x shows that 12mp in an APS-C size sensor is not out of the question; on the other hand Canon's introduction of the 5D shows them to be strongly committed to full frame.

Back to choices today: I think you'd like the 20D, and the price difference between the 20D and the 5D buys some nice lenses ... but it's your choice and your money ... and the stream of newer, better, and cheaper models will keep coming for a few years!

Cheers,

Giles
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dwdallam
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« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2005, 02:49:56 AM »
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So my F828 is considred full frame?
No -- it has a quite small sensor, which is part of the reason it can't limit depth of field as you wish it to.

The confusion arises because the focal length of point & shoot cameras is typically quoted as "35mm equivalent",  i.e. exactly what an equivalent lens on the 5D would see. . . .


I read the essay and I'm uderstanding it better now.

I understand about the printing  issue with a smaller sensor cameras comapred to the same MPs of the larger sensor cameras. It's something for me to think about for sure.

Couple of questions:

If I wanted to get at least 50% more zoom than my F828 has, what lens would I need for the 20D and the 5D and how much for a nice lens of that size that I will be happy with?

So with the 20D you don't capture all of what you are seeing in the view finder? I would find that really annoying, at least until I could get use to it.
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