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Author Topic: Can Mamiya 645 AF lenses (especially the zooms) resove 39mp?  (Read 14205 times)
Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2008, 05:06:25 PM »
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We have to remember the P65 plus which Jack and i just tested ourselves the color is off right now in the pre-production units. Actually the color temp was off by about 1000 kelvin so until full production units are shipping do not judge the color and even Phase will tell you that. There working on final firmware and software profiles for C1. It is there first Dalsa sensor so it is different than Kodak that is in all there other backs. This is a adjustment they certainly are working on before shipping. I am actually surprised a dealer sent those files to you without explaining that about the P65. It is a great back as you may have seen in regards to detail but noise, color and such are just not optimized until shipping. But there is as a general rule a slight color difference between the Dalsa and Kodak sensors but we need to remember Hassy and Kodak use exactly the same Kodak sensors. Also if you use Phase Backs than use C1 , no question the best raw processing for Phase files. The Hassy I can't comment on as far as software since i do not use that system although it would be my next choice if i did not shoot the Phase system.
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« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2008, 05:58:10 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
We have to remember the P65 plus which Jack and i just tested ourselves the color is off right now in the pre-production units. Actually the color temp was off by about 1000 kelvin so until full production units are shipping do not judge the color and even Phase will tell you that. There working on final firmware and software profiles for C1. It is there first Dalsa sensor so it is different than Kodak that is in all there other backs. This is a adjustment they certainly are working on before shipping. I am actually surprised a dealer sent those files to you without explaining that about the P65. It is a great back as you may have seen in regards to detail but noise, color and such are just not optimized until shipping. But there is as a general rule a slight color difference between the Dalsa and Kodak sensors but we need to remember Hassy and Kodak use exactly the same Kodak sensors. Also if you use Phase Backs than use C1 , no question the best raw processing for Phase files. The Hassy I can't comment on as far as software since i do not use that system although it would be my next choice if i did not shoot the Phase system.

Hi Guy
Thanks for your detailed response about the P65. We always shoot Leaf & since Phase is using the Dalsa chip I am very keen to test this back. We have a Mamiya 645 AFDII with a few lenses. Down here in Australia L&P are the agents for Phase/Mamiya. I like the fact that it is FF ( very close ) & shoots at 1 f/s. From what I have heard the new AFDIII has improved shutter lag over the AFDII.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2008, 06:38:42 PM »
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The AFDIII or Phase body one in the same is certainly a improvement in the shutter lag area and i mean much better by a country mile . On the AFDIII make sure you have firmware 1.4 which really makes the shutter lag seem very minimal. It drove me crazy to be honest before with the AFDII. I shot some golf and i had to hit the shutter on the START of the downswing. This obviously was a big issue for me and the new body and the 1.4 firmware is much much better. Still there but hardly noticeable. So I highly recommend the AFDIII just for this reason alone.

On the P65 I know next month Jack and I will have one on our workshop a full production ready to ship unit to demo and Phase mentioned Michael will have some on his Antarctica trip also. So next month we should be getting a lot of user reports on it from both workshops, which will be great to learn more of it's capabilities in the field. Of course both locations will be very cold so not going to get hot weather info this time around but certainly should be some good reports to judge it. The detail is pretty amazing from it
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« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2008, 06:22:49 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
The AFDIII or Phase body one in the same is certainly a improvement in the shutter lag area and i mean much better by a country mile . On the AFDIII make sure you have firmware 1.4 which really makes the shutter lag seem very minimal. It drove me crazy to be honest before with the AFDII. I shot some golf and i had to hit the shutter on the START of the downswing. This obviously was a big issue for me and the new body and the 1.4 firmware is much much better. Still there but hardly noticeable. So I highly recommend the AFDIII just for this reason alone.


in the past when mamiya was much cheaper than hasselblad all the shortcomings - lens performance, af, shutterlag, broken shutters - did not hurt so much. but today with prices at the same level as hasselblad i would not buy into this system anymore. there is a good reason why you don't find much mamiya gear in rental houses but a h body and hc lenses  you can get  probably everywhere in the word.
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« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2008, 06:23:17 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
The AFDIII or Phase body one in the same is certainly a improvement in the shutter lag area and i mean much better by a country mile . On the AFDIII make sure you have firmware 1.4 which really makes the shutter lag seem very minimal. It drove me crazy to be honest before with the AFDII. I shot some golf and i had to hit the shutter on the START of the downswing. This obviously was a big issue for me and the new body and the 1.4 firmware is much much better. Still there but hardly noticeable. So I highly recommend the AFDIII just for this reason alone.


in the past when mamiya was much cheaper than hasselblad all the shortcomings - lens performance, af, shutterlag, broken shutters - did not hurt so much. but today with prices at the same level as hasselblad i would not buy into this system anymore. there is a good reason why you don't find much mamiya gear in rental houses but a h body and hc lenses  you can get  probably everywhere in the word.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2008, 06:48:21 AM »
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Well not so sure about that the 55mm I paid 500 dollars , okay not the best build quality but the lens performance is outstanding. As far as rentals I can rent either system with a full set of lenses here in Phoenix which is a big city but a small market. Shutter lag was a issue but not so much anymore, Af is very fast although the 3 points are close together and if you need 1/4000th shutter there is not much out there in focal plane. Yes there D lenses are not cheap but I shot Leica for years and there are much more expensive but the 80 d, 150d and even the 28d are extremely good lenses plus several others as well. I am not wanting for much and honestly i am one of the biggest lens whores around. I come from 4 years of leica only glass. I did not step down at all and if anything my images hold up much better. The other issue not even discussed is the Phase Backs and using C1 which is a awesome combination. Sure i could shoot the Hassy H2 but i am locked out of there 28mm and that does not sit well either with me. I understand not wanting to buy a certain system no question. I would not touch a Sinar with a 10 ft pole myself . Frankly you only have a couple choices here and every system there is some compromise to it and features you wish you had or wish had the same from another system. I shoot a lot of many different things and the Mamiya system works for me , could it be better. Absolutely no question but so can Hassy, Sinar and leaf systems. There is no true winner here, you need to find a system that does almost everything you need with the compromises that come with it. But saying Mamiya glass is inferior is not a true statement and there are many users out there that do very well with it.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 06:49:31 AM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2008, 06:50:19 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
We have to remember the P65 plus which Jack and i just tested ourselves the color is off right now in the pre-production units. Actually the color temp was off by about 1000 kelvin so until full production units are shipping do not judge the color and even Phase will tell you that. There working on final firmware and software profiles for C1. It is there first Dalsa sensor so it is different than Kodak that is in all there other backs. This is a adjustment they certainly are working on before shipping. I am actually surprised a dealer sent those files to you without explaining that about the P65. It is a great back as you may have seen in regards to detail but noise, color and such are just not optimized until shipping. But there is as a general rule a slight color difference between the Dalsa and Kodak sensors but we need to remember Hassy and Kodak use exactly the same Kodak sensors. Also if you use Phase Backs than use C1 , no question the best raw processing for Phase files. The Hassy I can't comment on as far as software since i do not use that system although it would be my next choice if i did not shoot the Phase system.

Guy:

They did not send me P65+ files.  The files were from P45+, P30+ and P21+.  These were the ones I was not impressed with at all...  No visual appeal.  I am sure the backs are good but if the images do not pop?  You know what I am talking about... it is kinda using Canon L lenses vs.  the consumer stuff and I am talking color quality.  Everybody focuses on pixel count and resolution these days.  Tonality is something that is forgotten.

Thanks for the clarification.  Hopefully the P65+ will have the right profiles in the future.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2008, 06:58:47 AM »
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Problem maybe how there processed also, but understand your meaning. May want to try processing some yourself to the style you like. Many things can be adjusted in C1 and fine tuned to your taste.

I know some folks like the look of the Dalsa sensors over the Kodak and obviously the other way around too. Best thing you could maybe do is get a phase body one lens and test a leaf back than switch out to a Phase back and see what look feels better for you but i agree photography is all about look and feel, one reason i stayed with the 22 mpx sensors is I like the look and feel better from the fatter pixels. Shooting leica for so long it was all about the look, so totally understand your comment. I say run them head to head and see what type of sensor and also what software works best to you. The bottom line and I don't care what system it is I feel it was a major move up in image quality over 35mm and to me that was my criteria was to get above the 35mm curve and MF does that. Than find what system and look you are after.

I'm not here to sell any system to anyone or even defend my outlay of money for it but i do like what Phase brings to the table and my reasons for going down there path are what are important to what i shoot and work. I have switched system on a dime in the past ( to many times) and will always do that if i find a better mouse trap. LOL You just have to get what feels the best for what you do. Not what name sits on the face plate
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 07:12:05 AM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2008, 07:21:21 AM »
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I do think 2009 will be interesting with leica's S2 and improvements most likely coming from all the back makers. So we will have to see what these folks bring to the table, I know of some improvements already but I can't comment on them. But I think MF has a future even in these tough economic times we will have to see who survives, what mergers happen, shared technology happens or just closes there doors. I am just going to sit back and see what develops
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« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2008, 07:40:02 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Well not so sure about that the 55mm I paid 500 dollars , okay not the best build quality but the lens performance is outstanding. As far as rentals I can rent either system with a full set of lenses here in Phoenix which is a big city but a small market. Shutter lag was a issue but not so much anymore, Af is very fast although the 3 points are close together and if you need 1/4000th shutter there is not much out there in focal plane. Yes there D lenses are not cheap but I shot Leica for years and there are much more expensive but the 80 d, 150d and even the 28d are extremely good lenses plus several others as well. I am not wanting for much and honestly i am one of the biggest lens whores around. I come from 4 years of leica only glass. I did not step down at all and if anything my images hold up much better. The other issue not even discussed is the Phase Backs and using C1 which is a awesome combination. Sure i could shoot the Hassy H2 but i am locked out of there 28mm and that does not sit well either with me. I understand not wanting to buy a certain system no question. I would not touch a Sinar with a 10 ft pole myself . Frankly you only have a couple choices here and every system there is some compromise to it and features you wish you had or wish had the same from another system. I shoot a lot of many different things and the Mamiya system works for me , could it be better. Absolutely no question but so can Hassy, Sinar and leaf systems. There is no true winner here, you need to find a system that does almost everything you need with the compromises that come with it. But saying Mamiya glass is inferior is not a true statement and there are many users out there that do very well with it.


actually the D lenses are more expansive as their hc counterparts.  phoenix - i would love to have some margaritas at the barrio cafe right know
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2008, 08:13:59 AM »
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Well the 28D and 150 D are not cheap for sure, not sure on Hassy prices. BTW some great Mexican food here, must visit sometime.
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« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2008, 11:56:33 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
But I think MF has a future even in these tough economic times we will have to see who survives, what mergers happen, shared technology happens or just closes there doors. I am just going to sit back and see what develops

I suspect we will soon -- as early as the end of 2009 -- be left with just two companies in the MF playing field as far as backs are concerned.  I think the market (demand) simply isn't large enough to support them all (supply), and with the proliferation of sub $3,000 20+ MP DSLR's, the MF DB market will be hit hard...
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 11:59:43 AM by Jack Flesher » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2008, 12:54:35 PM »
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Quote from: Jack Flesher
I suspect we will soon -- as early as the end of 2009 -- be left with just two companies in the MF playing field as far as backs are concerned.  I think the market (demand) simply isn't large enough to support them all (supply), and with the proliferation of sub $3,000 20+ MP DSLR's, the MF DB market will be hit hard...

Hi Jack
Question, when you say two MF backs left? Who?
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« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2008, 01:11:39 PM »
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It's a good question. Let's look what already has happened Sinar and leaf have agreed on shared technology, read into that what you will or believe. Hassy has significantly cut prices by as much as 10k just on the H39 and lowered the H31 considerably. Phase and Leica have agreed to some terms on the S2 that one still is in negotiations and no one really knows what that will mean yet. Than look at what mostly has come out new P65 Plus coming H50 coming leaf announced a couple new formats, Sinar had a couple new entries there 65 and tech camera. I know i maybe missing a few things but does not matter , what does matter is things are going on and the market is shrinking. Plus you do have the Sony A900, Canon big gun and the Nikon D3X all nipping at the tails of MF. Than on top of that Leica S2 coming in the summer and rumors of Nikon jumping in. Plus we have no idea what is going on behind closed door meetings within each company and there survival for 09 plans. How to gain market share in tough economic times and where does the cash flow come from. How and who to layoff or not. Bottom line i don't care what anyone says and if anyone does it will be spin anyway. There has to be and will be some shakeups with all of them and there simply is no way of getting around it. I think a lot of parent companies will say enough is enough too and let them slide off there game plan. If shareholders get no value than heads will roll and something will have to be done. i did the corporate thing for 16 years and bottom line above all else is shareholder value . If there is none they will find a way to find it and that is not a good thing. Reason i said i am sitting back and watch what happens.
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« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2008, 01:32:44 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
And the Phase One body focal plane shutter does 1/4000th . Pick your poison. The high sync is what some may need and the higher shutter is what others may need. Rather have the faster shutter myself. I have gotten around the high sync shutter for years and have much more need for the higher shutter speed. Horses for courses, pick what systems works best for you.

I personally would not switch systems because of the glass. I would switch or chose a system because of features , ergonomics, ISO limits, different types of lenses, T/S, software and stuff like that. Obviously if you need something one system has over the other than that would come into play and price of course. Each system does a nice job of producing results , just find one that clearly gives you as the shooter more advantages over another on how you work and what you shoot.

considering my retouchers end up using ACR to deal with all the files in the end, and having seen numerous files go through different raw convertors, I'm more or less convinced that ACR does a good job most of the time (just a matter of tweaking each profile to suit your taste)

When it comes to ISO, the only thing I know is that MF is crap at anything above 200. So it doesn't make a difference.
hasselblad seems the only one with a proper delivery plan on their stuff. I don't really have time to sit around waiting for imaginary lenses to come out.

basically if a Mamiya is starting to cost as much as a Hassy in terms of their lenses and bodies ($4000 for a mamiya body? get real...), it makes more sense to choose the more responsive, more easily rentable system.
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« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2008, 01:42:37 PM »
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Quote from: jing q
it makes more sense to choose the more responsive,

FWIW,  at present Mamiya has the shortest shutter lag of all the MF systems. Its AF is on par with or faster than Hassy, both of which are faster than any of the other competition...
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 01:59:41 PM by Jack Flesher » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2008, 01:43:58 PM »
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Quote from: mcfoto
Hi Jack
Question, when you say two MF backs left? Who?

If pushed into a corner, I would bet on Phase and Hasselblad...  
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« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2008, 01:50:01 PM »
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As far as finding a medium format camera in rental around the world in almost any market, first would be a hasselblad h body (probably with a phase back, with leaf  a distant second) and then a few places will have Mamiya's afd 1's or 2's but very few AFDIII's if any.

I understand the Mamiya III is better, but it had nowhere to go but up so I don't now if that means that much.  It's still a work a progress as firmware updates  requires the camera has to be sent into service and shutter lag is still present, lenses and right angle grips are still waiting and it has a non removable viewfinder.    It makes the Contax with Zeiss lenses look like a modern system and be realistic you can buy two Cotnax's and lenses for the price of the new Mamiya's and forget about rentals.

In regards to the Leica S2 other than the bling factor (and the red dot does has that), it makes no sense to me.  I don't see what it does that a Contax with a P30+ will do for probably 1/2 the price, or for that matter a Hasselblad 31mpx III for probably less price also.

I know Leica is relying on tradition but with digital capture tradition is gone out the window and you would have thought that since Leica was starting with a clean sheet of paper they would have articulating lcd's, an evil finder, added video, cmos sensor and higher iso, because as it stands it's just another smaller medium format camera with good glass and low iso which means it's going after a niche in a already niche market.

I wish Leica luck, but compare to the S2 the Nikon D90 is space age in comparison.  

In regards to Dalsa vs. Kodak chips and which one is more "film like", I find all of this urban myth.  I've owned three Dalsa sensor mfdb's and three kodak sensor backs and depending on the convertor can pretty much move the files in any direction I want.  Actually I see more innovation in 3rd party processors than I do medium format cameras and if the Hasselblad has any real issue it's their ever moving file format that first must go through their software before it goes into a 3rd party processor.  I don't know who Hasselblad has been talking to, but on a professional level, every photographer that works with a retoucher has to send some form of raw file (even if the processed tiff accompanies it) and nobody has the time to explain to a retoucher how to download phocus of flexcolor, learn it and work it or go through the extra step of producing dngs.

Regardless of the topics in these forums, the only standard in the digital capture world is photoshop and if you can't process a file directly into cs2, 3 or 4 then your one step back.

Recession or not, medium format needs to get rolling to survive and deliver their product quickly.  This last photokina was a buzz kill.  Leaf announced a rotating sensor because for some reason they can't get their back to rotate on the hy6 though they finally figured a way to tether and see a preview on the lcd and the computer, though this does nothing for the previous Leaf owners, Phase announced alliances with Leica though what that means nobody knows and a full frame sensor hooked to a 2.2" lcd that is still in the league of 2001 cell phone quality.   Hasselblad at least announced price cuts though I would have hated to have been the guy that just dropped $27,000 on a hdIII only to see it go to ten thousand less the next week and the only real announcement of substance with the 31mpx Sinar that promised a good lcd, in camera jpegs and a revolving back but since announcekina they have gone quiet on all fronts.

In other words no medium format company gave us a "must"reason to sell our digital backs for the newest ones and still clings to the theory of proprietary systems.  Why every medium format back won't work on every medium format camera is beyond understanding given the small size of the market.  Imagine how much more use you could get out of your Phase of Leaf back if you could snap it onto a H system, or an RZ, a Sinar Artech, a Contax and an HY6 just by changing the mounts and pushing a button.  Instead it takes a twenty page schematic to understand what back works with what camera.

I don't know a photographer that isn't planning to buy some kind of new dslr, though the flip side to this I don't know a photographer that plans on buying a new medium format back if they shoot anything that moves.  (though I am sure they are out there).  

Since photokina Sony and Nikon have announced and shipped 25mpx dslrs that have double the features of medium format for 1/2 the price of the cheapest medium format,( actually 1/4 of the price with the sony) and I don't think anyone believes this is the end of dslr development as there are already rumors of 30mpx dslrs coming out next year.

From this day on, the world of cameras is gong to have to stop this constant incremental upgrade system and go balls out to produce the best and most featured product they can.  Even the Japanese companies keep messing with their customers.  Canon gives us a 5dII with video though locks out the manual functions, Nikon a 25mpx dslr without video and Sony a new camera without live view and slow focus.  Since all of these companies have the expertise to probably make a real killer cam that shoots full frame video, 30mpx stills, a variable frame size and can climb to a real 1000 iso (whatever iso is), gives most professional photographers the impression that whatever we buy today will be worth pennies in a few years, probably less.

If you asked me today what I would rather spend $30,000 on to invest in my business, cameras of any format would be way down the line.  

The one company that can break this silly cycle is RED though I know mentioning RED on this forum gives some of the purists cardiac arrest, (btw: how can anyone consider themselves a "purist" in the digital age?)  

If RED can meet 1/2 of their promises and deliver without issue then they will move the industry to finally give us a modular system that has long term use and go from the business model of buying a camera we would like to own, vs. a camera we have to own.


Edit: Unlike some I would never predict on an open forum the demise of any company , camera or otherwise.  As a professional we want and need to them all to survive and I think medium format has a place, I just wish they would step back from the knee jerk reaction of tradition and really see where the photography market is going.

As a photographer, we are required to shoot more per day day, quality and quantity, more setups, more variations and every penny we spend is scrutinized so every penny we invest must have a payback.

We must have excellent previews tethered and portable, we must have no glitches, jams or focus issues and as the market moves to video some part of the system will eventually need to be cross purposed for motion.   Our workflow needs to be faster, more flexible and easier to learn, use and produce.

I wish the camera companies would get out of the standard mold of loaning out cameras for seminars and reviews and really put them in the hands of working, hard hitting professionals.   Work in their cusotmers envrionment from pre production to finish and they would learn volumes and in turn probably get valid feedback that goes beyond shooting brick walls and trees and measuring the results at 200% on computer monitors.

Get feedback (Once again from pre production to finish out) from a photographer that doesn't want to take the shot, but must get the shot.  There is a big difference.

I want all of these companies to do well as some of the people I know personally, dealers, reps, designers, engineers and I know their hearts are in the right place, I just believe from my experience that they are not exactly in step with what a professional photographer's clients demand in the 21st century.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 02:42:16 PM by bcooter » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2008, 02:05:05 PM »
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An example of an image, originated with Mamiya zoom (the longer one to 210mm, forget the short end because I rented it anyway)

http://www.paulfreeman.net/prwfreeman/imag.../landmarks.html

Although there is a lot of retouching and artwork, big ben's clock and the non-futuristic buildings are pretty much as shot. This is on AFD II with an Aptus 75. Its about 1/3 of the frame, and I don't think it was sharpened.

I think most people would be happy with the quality. Frankly I was amazed to get this from an inexpensive MF zoom lens.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 02:32:54 PM by free1000 » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2008, 02:57:18 PM »
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Quote from: Jack Flesher
If pushed into a corner, I would bet on Phase and Hasselblad...



i see it the same way. only a company which can sell everything from lenses to backs has a chance to survive in the long run. considering the size of the market there are to many competitor. its nice to  have a lot of options
from a buyers standpoint but the drawback as we can see today is zero technology progress.
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