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Author Topic: MTF graphs for the first 4 Leica S2 lenses !!!!  (Read 21020 times)
Nemo
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« on: December 25, 2008, 06:39:16 AM »
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MTF graphs for the first 4 Leica S2 lenses !!!!

LEICA Camera AG - Das Leica S-System

I think they are impressive, specially considering the format size...
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LEICA SUMMARIT-S 35 MM F/2.5 ASPH. CS




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LEICA SUMMARIT-S 70 MM F/2.5 ASPH. CS




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LEICA APO-MACRO-SUMMARIT-S 120 MM F/2.5 CS




_________________________________
LEICA APO-ELMAR-S 180 MM F/3.5 CS





.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2008, 07:46:07 AM »
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Quote from: Nemo
MTF graphs for the first 4 Leica S2 lenses !!!!

I think they are impressive, specially considering the format size...

Yes.

Do we have comfirmed prices for these wonsers? It seels pretty obvious to me that near perfect lenses can be made when money is not really part of the equation.  

Cheers,
Bernard

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Nemo
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« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2008, 01:32:13 PM »
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The last issue of the LFI (Leica Fotografie Magazine) presents the first review of a Leica S2 (a pre-production model).

The price of the lenses isn't discussed, but the 70mm is said to be as complex as the 28mm Summicron-M, but adding autofocus, electronic aperture and water-proofing. The Summicron is 3000 so the 70mm lens will be... how much?
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2008, 02:17:26 PM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Yes.

Do we have comfirmed prices for these wonsers? It seels pretty obvious to me that near perfect lenses can be made when money is not really part of the equation.  

Cheers,
Bernard
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2008, 02:20:27 PM »
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Yes they are impressive if they are for 10, 20 and 40 lp/mm. I could not find any description of the curves, so I guess the normal 10, 20 and 40 lp/mm applies.

Erik

Quote from: Nemo
MTF graphs for the first 4 Leica S2 lenses !!!!

LEICA Camera AG - Das Leica S-System

I think they are impressive, specially considering the format size...
_________________________________
LEICA SUMMARIT-S 35 MM F/2.5 ASPH. CS




_________________________________
LEICA SUMMARIT-S 70 MM F/2.5 ASPH. CS




_________________________________
LEICA APO-MACRO-SUMMARIT-S 120 MM F/2.5 CS




_________________________________
LEICA APO-ELMAR-S 180 MM F/3.5 CS





.
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Ray
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« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2008, 04:09:09 PM »
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Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Yes they are impressive if they are for 10, 20 and 40 lp/mm. I could not find any description of the curves, so I guess the normal 10, 20 and 40 lp/mm applies.

Erik

I can't believe a 35mm wide-angle lens for a larger-than-35mm format could have an MTF of 80% at 40lp/mm. Those curves would have to represent resolutions 10, 20 & 30 lp/mm at most.
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Christopher
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« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2008, 04:18:12 PM »
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Quote from: Ray
I can't believe a 35mm wide-angle lens for a larger-than-35mm format could have an MTF of 80% at 40lp/mm. Those curves would have to represent resolutions 10, 20 & 30 lp/mm at most.

You are talking about perhaphs the best set of lenses ever made, so why not ? ^^
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Conner999
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« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2008, 06:29:50 PM »
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Leica R & M lenses are measured at 5, 10, 20, 40 lp/mm, I suspect they are the same. Zeiss/Hassy lenses are also 10,20 40 lp/mm, so...

As for the eventual prices... ;>
« Last Edit: December 25, 2008, 06:30:58 PM by Conner999 » Logged
Ray
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« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2008, 11:13:39 PM »
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Quote from: Christopher
You are talking about perhaphs the best set of lenses ever made, so why not ? ^^

Two reasons basically. Those graphs are so much better than the most expensive 35mm format lenses I've ever seen; and top quality lenses are almost always at least slightly better when they are designed for optimum performance across a smaller image circle for use with a smaller format, such as the Zuiko lenses for the 4/3rds format.

These new Leica lenses project a larger image circle than 35mm format lenses, so it would be a great achievement if they had an MTF response which was merely on a par with, for example, the Leica Summicron-M 50mm F2.

That the MTF response for the larger format wide-angle 35mm lens is actually better than the response for the Summicron-M 50/F2, just seems a bit far-fetched and incredible to me.

However, if the above MTF graphs really are accurately representative of real lenses at 40 lp/mm, then that's just amazing.

Below is the Photodo MTF chart for the Summicron 50/2, which has one of the highest rating for any 50mm lens.

[attachment=10534:Summicro..._50mm_F2.jpg]
« Last Edit: December 25, 2008, 11:21:17 PM by Ray » Logged
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2008, 12:32:20 AM »
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Hi,

I checked a Zeiss paper on MTF and they seem to put the diffraction limit at ca. 85% at f/5.6, so 80% should be possible to achieve. I start to think those curves can be for real. Calculated MTF for lenses is probably higher then measured one on real samples.

Erik

Quote from: Ray
I can't believe a 35mm wide-angle lens for a larger-than-35mm format could have an MTF of 80% at 40lp/mm. Those curves would have to represent resolutions 10, 20 & 30 lp/mm at most.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2008, 02:40:51 AM »
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Quote from: Ray
Two reasons basically. Those graphs are so much better than the most expensive 35mm format lenses I've ever seen; and top quality lenses are almost always at least slightly better when they are designed for optimum performance across a smaller image circle for use with a smaller format, such as the Zuiko lenses for the 4/3rds format.

These new Leica lenses project a larger image circle than 35mm format lenses, so it would be a great achievement if they had an MTF response which was merely on a par with, for example, the Leica Summicron-M 50mm F2.
[attachment=10534:Summicro..._50mm_F2.jpg]

Again, we are talking about lenses that are probably going to be 3 to 10 times more expensive than their 35 mm equivalents and are not that bright.

I am 100% sure that Nikon and Canon could produce a near perfect 50 mm f2 for 2.000 US$. Now,would you buy one?

Cheers,
Bernard

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« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2008, 02:45:57 AM »
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Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

I checked a Zeiss paper on MTF and they seem to put the diffraction limit at ca. 85% at f/5.6, so 80% should be possible to achieve. I start to think those curves can be for real. Calculated MTF for lenses is probably higher then measured one on real samples.

Erik


the turnover of leica went down more than 40% this year, so sure they need some attention.   if they survive and bring the s2 to the market i`m convinced the s2  becomes the unbeatable  "dentists  dream camera"  ;-)
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erick.boileau
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« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2008, 04:09:20 AM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
I am 100% sure that Nikon and Canon could produce a near perfect 50 mm f2 for 2.000 US$. Now,would you buy one?
 a 35mm f/2 yes
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2008, 05:15:55 AM »
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Hi,

Actually, no.

For one thing zooms are IMHO more useful than single focals. It's not always that easy to move a step forward or back. The other issue is that a "perfect" lens would only achieve it's maximum performance in a very narrow aperture range. Finally the sharpening steps in the digital process can hide or emphase weeknesses.

In the end the qustion how useful a lens is for the needs at hand. I would pay 2000 USD for a 24-70/2.8 or a 70-200/2.8 but probably not for a single focal, especially as I normally use f/8, which I see as an acceptable compromise between factors like depth of field, precision of focus, lens aberrations and diffraction.

In the final outcome the question is about utility. The problem with the Leica lenses may be that they need sensors with very  small pixel pitch for best utilisation and such sensors are noisy. With Rodenstock HR Digitars and their likes we have more flexibility as we can put them on cameras with shifts and tilts. A digital back with "Digital" lenses is just an investment  that can be utilized far more flexibly than just another DSLR, even if that DSLR is the best ever built with the best lenses ever made.

Some people will buy the new Leica and it's lenses and I'm perfectly sure those owners will be happy.

Anyway, I'm still fascinated with the technology. I also admire Porsche, Ferrari and Formula 1, but I have a Toyota station wagon.


Best regards
Erik

In happy posession of a 24-70/2.8, 80-200/2.8, 100/2.8 Macro, 20/2.8, 300/4 and 400/4.5 among other things ;-)


Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Again, we are talking about lenses that are probably going to be 3 to 10 times more expensive than their 35 mm equivalents and are not that bright.

I am 100% sure that Nikon and Canon could produce a near perfect 50 mm f2 for 2.000 US$. Now,would you buy one?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 05:18:48 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

Dustbak
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« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2008, 07:44:07 AM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Again, we are talking about lenses that are probably going to be 3 to 10 times more expensive than their 35 mm equivalents and are not that bright.

I am 100% sure that Nikon and Canon could produce a near perfect 50 mm f2 for 2.000 US$. Now,would you buy one?

Cheers,
Bernard

Make it a 1.4 with AFS and tell me where I can make the deposit
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Nemo
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« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2008, 09:37:36 AM »
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Quote from: Conner999
Leica R & M lenses are measured at 5, 10, 20, 40 lp/mm, I suspect they are the same. Zeiss/Hassy lenses are also 10,20 40 lp/mm, so...

Yes, in Leica's tradition, they are the same: 5, 10, 20 and 40lp/mm, for Leica "pro-Format", this is, 30x45mm... similar to 36x48mm, and half the 645 format (more or less)...
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georgl
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« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2008, 11:26:28 AM »
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Just my two cents:

Yes, these MTFs show 5/10/20/40lp/mm and the calculated (the 70/180 already take pictures) MTFs are usually nearly identical with the actual MTFs (shown for serial lenses) because of extremely tight production tolerances.

After several years of Leica M I recently completed my lens line-up with a 2/28 - three lenses in about 6 years, because they're so bloody expensive!

But: They're worth every cent in mechanical and optical quality, I know that even a future M9/10 with plenty megapixels will give outstanding results! The MTFs of my lenses look quite similar to the new S-lenses and besides the small files (just 10MP with the M8) they give great results: the corner-to-corner sharpness, the contrast, the bokeh, the flare-resistance, the "look"...

I think this optical quality is exactly what the S2/MFDB-clients want and need! And it's also what Leica is about, buying a Kodak CCD is easy, but designing lenses of this quality is nearly impossible, Leica-engineers told me that several design/production-technologies implemented in the S-series were recently developed for the new high-speed-lenses (1,4 21/24mm, 0.95 Noctilux) or the 5,6/1600mm.

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carstenw
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« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2008, 12:04:20 PM »
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Peter Karbe, the lead designer of Leica's lens design team, is also possibly the best lens designer of all time. He has designed several of the most critically acclaimed lenses ever made, like the Summilux-M 50mm f/1.4 ASPH., and so on, in many cases more competent replacements for lenses from an earlier design genius, Dr. Walter Mandler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Mandler), the designer of the Noctilux, among others. If anyone can pull those kinds of numbers from an MF lens, then him and his team. Here is an excerpt from an interview (scroll down a bit). Leica has made the occasional bumble with cameras like the M5 and M8, and the DMR, but they have never in my experience exaggerated optical performance.

http://www.overgaard.dk/leica_history.html
« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 12:04:47 PM by carstenw » Logged

Nemo
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« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2008, 02:50:47 PM »
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David Farkas has a very interesting interview with Peter Karbe during the last Photokina (2008)...

http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/

(look at "Day 2" report)...
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Ray
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« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2008, 04:45:17 PM »
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I'll look forward to seeing some real-world comparisons with the Canon G10, but this time with DoF equalised; that is, the G10 at F3.5 and the S2 at F22   .

The S2 will of course be tremendous for shallow DoF work and sharp eyelashes, but for landscape work where maximum DoF is sought, it will probably prove to be a waste of resources. All good lenses start to look very similar stopped down to F11 and beyond.

It's a pity that Leica is only now ready to launch this camera when the economic outlook is so bleak. In times like the present, sales of luxury items tend to be the first to suffer. But I wish them all the best.
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