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Author Topic: MTF graphs for the first 4 Leica S2 lenses !!!!  (Read 23094 times)
EricWHiss
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« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2008, 07:53:12 PM »
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Quote from: carstenw
Leica has made the occasional bumble with cameras like the M5 and M8, and the DMR, but they have never in my experience exaggerated optical performance.

http://www.overgaard.dk/leica_history.html


Who designed the R 80 lux?  and the 35-70mm elmarit? These are my favorites but I'd agree with you. I don't think Leica has ever overstated their lenses.  I think most I've used are quite nice.

And why do you think the DMR is a bumble?  I have really enjoyed mine and for the time it was quite good, producing a much higher quality file than its canon and nikon counterparts at base ISO. Much more MFDB like than 35mmDSLR.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2008, 07:55:00 PM by EricWHiss » Logged

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Carsten W
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« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2008, 03:33:23 AM »
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Quote from: EricWHiss
Who designed the R 80 lux?  and the 35-70mm elmarit? These are my favorites but I'd agree with you. I don't think Leica has ever overstated their lenses.  I think most I've used are quite nice.

And why do you think the DMR is a bumble?  I have really enjoyed mine and for the time it was quite good, producing a much higher quality file than its canon and nikon counterparts at base ISO. Much more MFDB like than 35mmDSLR.

The DMR wasn't a bumble as such (and neither was the M8), but they promised it much too soon, and then there were firmware issues with both colour and SD-card support.

The 80 Lux-R is the R version of the 75 Lux-M, and was designed by Dr. Walter Mandler. It also happens to be my favorite portrait lens of all time. I love the look wide open. I have a Hasselblad 110mm f/2 on the way, so we'll see what happens there  The 35-70 Elmarit is a much newer lens, so it wasn't Dr. Mandler, but I don't know if it was Peter Karbe. It may have been, or he may at least have been involved, since it has the signature and technical level of the newest Leica lenses.
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Nemo
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« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2008, 05:56:58 AM »
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Quote from: Ray
In times like the present, sales of luxury items tend to be the first to suffer. But I wish them all the best.

I don't think this is a "luxury" item. In my opinion, the design of this new system is for professional use. It is a professional-oriented system. Different in concept to the competition, but truly professional. Prices must be competitive.
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Conner999
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« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2008, 08:30:36 AM »
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Hopefully Leica will think beyond the end of their noses on the new S glass and follow-thru on the "..it's true, no it's not, yes it is..."  assertions between Phase and Leica of the S lenses being compatible with upcoming (current?) Phamiya bodies. Sell the glass (if true) as the body gains traction in the market (will take some time) and hope to convert users to the S platform (or use as a 2nd body).

The glass and a body's features/firmware/reliability/shootability and the firm's service/responsiveness are what differentiate a system and sell it (or not). The sensors, all sourced from the same handful of folks and all lacking AA filters, are not a source of competitive advantage. Hopefully they'll realize that and exploit /establish the glass as soon as they can while they try and establish the body/system in the market. However, knowing Leica......
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 08:37:11 AM by Conner999 » Logged
Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2008, 08:40:33 AM »
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Quote from: EricWHiss
Who designed the R 80 lux?  and the 35-70mm elmarit? These are my favorites but I'd agree with you. I don't think Leica has ever overstated their lenses.  I think most I've used are quite nice.

And why do you think the DMR is a bumble?  I have really enjoyed mine and for the time it was quite good, producing a much higher quality file than its canon and nikon counterparts at base ISO. Much more MFDB like than 35mmDSLR.


have to agree I shot the DMR for two years and without a doubt the best in 35mm at the time and frankly It still maybe when it comes to image quality, more to life than MPX. The only thing I see close to it in look and feel is the new Sony A900. Very tempting 35mm system right now. I am certainly keeping a close eye on the S2 it represents speed above all else in MF
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 08:41:49 AM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

David Klepacki
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« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2008, 08:22:38 PM »
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Quote from: Ray
Two reasons basically. Those graphs are so much better than the most expensive 35mm format lenses I've ever seen; and top quality lenses are almost always at least slightly better when they are designed for optimum performance across a smaller image circle for use with a smaller format, such as the Zuiko lenses for the 4/3rds format.

These new Leica lenses project a larger image circle than 35mm format lenses, so it would be a great achievement if they had an MTF response which was merely on a par with, for example, the Leica Summicron-M 50mm F2.

That the MTF response for the larger format wide-angle 35mm lens is actually better than the response for the Summicron-M 50/F2, just seems a bit far-fetched and incredible to me.

However, if the above MTF graphs really are accurately representative of real lenses at 40 lp/mm, then that's just amazing.

Below is the Photodo MTF chart for the Summicron 50/2, which has one of the highest rating for any 50mm lens.

[attachment=10534:Summicro..._50mm_F2.jpg]

Ray, I tend to agree with you.  If anything, this S2 MTF data suggests that Leica could do much better in their lens designs for their M and R series lenses.
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jing q
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« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2008, 09:22:32 PM »
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Quote from: Nemo
I don't think this is a "luxury" item. In my opinion, the design of this new system is for professional use. It is a professional-oriented system. Different in concept to the competition, but truly professional. Prices must be competitive.

which professionals are we talking about?

The professionals looking for the highest megapixels and highest quality(large scenes,landscapes)
The professionals shooting catalogue, fashion, lifestyle, commercial and require less megapixels (out of which it's hard to justify an extremely expensive investment in a whole new system)
The professionals running studios providing a wide range of photographic services that usually don't require extremely high resolutions?
The professionals who are renting their equipment job from rental houses which I highly doubt are likely to start stocking overpriced leicas?

I find it hard to see where the Leica's going to fit in professionally.
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PeterA
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« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2008, 02:30:34 AM »
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I am guessing that very few people buy MTF charts. You are talking a hand holdable system camera with a 40 megapixel chip fixed tight in a body. A very very inflexible and probably under specked system - before it is even launched. I am a Leica fan, but scratching my head as to who will buy this system... would love to hear people's  thoughts on  this question.

All I can see ahead is carnage in MFD land - in fact it is already happening. I cant see the existing manufacturers standing still with pricing OR chips - waiting for Leica to pick up their user base...and I dont think the world needs ( yet another ) European company making product with no transparency in pricing and Hermes editions of this and that and special deal in this and that if you kiss this or that dealers backside long enough..

I am over that BS - forever. Give me a a product that works straight out of the box - and spare me the agony of having to deal with dealers and salespeople who are basically clue-less and mostly ( of course ) self serving and definitely soon to be jobless.

The RED model is the best way to deal with end users - direct. Cut ALL the middle people OUT. Make your product and pricing logic transparent and stop fretting about your dealer 'network' - let them sell Canon 5Ds and Nikon D90s - woo hoo! thats what most 'professionals' use anyway.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 02:31:35 AM by PeterA » Logged
csp
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« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2008, 02:35:39 AM »
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Quote from: jing q
which professionals are we talking about?

The professionals looking for the highest megapixels and highest quality(large scenes,landscapes)
The professionals shooting catalogue, fashion, lifestyle, commercial and require less megapixels (out of which it's hard to justify an extremely expensive investment in a whole new system)
The professionals running studios providing a wide range of photographic services that usually don't require extremely high resolutions?
The professionals who are renting their equipment job from rental houses which I highly doubt are likely to start stocking overpriced leicas?

I find it hard to see where the Leica's going to fit in professionally.


leica was never a big player in the professional market this will not change with the s2.  it is a camera and format nobody asked for  imho it is a kind of "creative product"  to  impress the management
rather than  working professionals.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 02:37:03 AM by csp » Logged
Nemo
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« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2008, 06:03:35 AM »
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Quote from: jing q
which professionals are we talking about?

The professionals looking for the highest megapixels and highest quality(large scenes,landscapes)
The professionals shooting catalogue, fashion, lifestyle, commercial and require less megapixels (out of which it's hard to justify an extremely expensive investment in a whole new system)
The professionals running studios providing a wide range of photographic services that usually don't require extremely high resolutions?
The professionals who are renting their equipment job from rental houses which I highly doubt are likely to start stocking overpriced leicas?

I find it hard to see where the Leica's going to fit in professionally.

The professionals using Hasselblad, Mamiya or even Canon or Nikon's high resolution cameras for studio work, for instance.
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antonyoung
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« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2008, 06:55:03 AM »
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Quote from: PeterA
The RED model is the best way to deal with end users - direct. Cut ALL the middle people OUT. Make your product and pricing logic transparent and stop fretting about your dealer 'network' - let them sell Canon 5Ds and Nikon D90s - woo hoo! thats what most 'professionals' use anyway.

Let's take a quick reality check. RED has never made a medium format still camera, and so far has shown only pie-in-the-sky bad computer renderings of medium format cameras they'd like to build and may someday ship. RED are currently shipping a $30K camera that is the size of a small enlarger and is capable of stills with the resolution of a five year old point and shoot. RED's main products are hype and vaporware, which are selling like hotcakes to fanboys on the internet, none of whom will never spend $30K on a camera of any sort, still or video.
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PeterA
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« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2008, 07:32:55 AM »
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Quote from: antonyoung
Let's take a quick reality check. RED has never made a medium format still camera, and so far has shown only pie-in-the-sky bad computer renderings of medium format cameras they'd like to build and may someday ship. RED are currently shipping a $30K camera that is the size of a small enlarger and is capable of stills with the resolution of a five year old point and shoot. RED's main products are hype and vaporware, which are selling like hotcakes to fanboys on the internet, none of whom will never spend $30K on a camera of any sort, still or video.


I guess you have a lot of evidence to back up your little dummy spit above? Why the aggressive tone?

personally - I like the idea of dealing directly with the manufacturer of a product - a lot of high end equipment in many industries ranging from automobiles to MRI imaging equipment is 'sold' directly to the end user..it is a proven business model in high end, high margin product. The other proven business model is volume sales of boxes with consumer goods in them that work/ and can be replaced immediately if they dont from stock kept on hand by the volume seller. The business model that doesnt work for high end products - is the same adopted by the MFD back manufacturers up till now..economics always wins out - sometimes it takes bad business managers and bad ideas years to break down..deaths of a thousand tiny cuts - they add up.

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bcooter
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« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2008, 10:43:16 AM »
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Quote from: antonyoung
Let's take a quick reality check. RED has never made a medium format still camera, and so far has shown only pie-in-the-sky bad computer renderings of medium format cameras they'd like to build and may someday ship. RED are currently shipping a $30K camera that is the size of a small enlarger and is capable of stills with the resolution of a five year old point and shoot. RED's main products are hype and vaporware, which are selling like hotcakes to fanboys on the internet, none of whom will never spend $30K on a camera of any sort, still or video.



To some extent your right, other than RED has sold a lot of the original RED's in 12 months and by all accounts more than all three ENG makers combined, so they can produce a product.

As far as making a medium format camera I guess RED is pretty much the same as all larger than 35mm speciality cameras, (is there really medium format anymore) in that they announce it, gauge the reaction, change the specs or the complete idea, then slowly come out with the system or parts of the system.  

The interesting thing about the RED is it still relies on lenses in the marketplace (i.e. Mamiya) though larger than 35mm format still cameras have also followed this route for well . .. ever, because with current cameras, other than the Hasselblad H, there has not been a real clean sheet of paper camera system built in any format, unless the Leica makes it to market.

The Leica is interesting because along with Hasselblad they are the only two brands that carry any consumer recognition and bling factor at the country club.  Tell someone you use Leica or Blad and they go yea wow, though in the real world bling doesn't pay the bills, the photos do and in the real world waiting for anything, firmware, decent focusing, stable software just doesn't cut it.

I wish Leica well, hope the camera comes out working on all fronts with all the lenses on the shelf, (and under a billion dollars) though if Leica doesn't put a cmos sensor in that thing and offer actual high iso, they can pretty much wrap up the whole thought of selling these things in bulk because nobody needs another slow iso camera that shoots one frame every year and a half.

Deep down I think a lot of us a cheering for RED as it would be great if someone broke the mold and delivered exactly as promised, made it professional, made it upgradable and affordable.

The thing is you kind of have this feeling that by the time the RED or the Leica are full featured ready to buy, Canon or Nikon (or both) will have stitched two 24x36 sensors together and sell a $10,000 camera that has 50 mpx, shoots video and makes coffee and toast between setups.

Then again you kind of get the feeling that by the time the RED or Leica are full featured and ready to buy, 95% of our photography will be viewed on computer or TV screens rather than print and at that point anything over 4k wide is just overkill and any format other than 16x9 horizontal is a legacy from the past.

As far as what RED has actually produced today, you have to give them credit because for nearly a decade film makers have begged for a digital motion camera that would shoot a frame format larger than a asprin and costs less than the space shuttle.  Sony, JVC, Canon, Panasonic all sit on their hands and gave the indie guys small tiny incremental upgrades talking about the benefits of 3 ccd's though the systems we're still old ccd based cameras that had the ergonomics of a vhs recorder.  

RED did change that thought and don't think the 5dII wasn't a reaction to the RED, though in typical digital marketing fashion the 5dII has features locked out of it, just to protect a professional ENG and prosumer video market that is falling faster than GM stock.

Also RED changed the system of customer to maker communication.  RED's own forum has conversations with the owner of the company and are blunt and up front.  Try to get the CEO's of Phase One, Canon or Nikon to deal directly in a public forum.  You'd have a better chance getting Dick Cheney offer himself up to sodium pentathol.

The days are over when anyone with half a brain is gong to drop $30,000 to $50,000 on a still only camera and wait for stuff to come. We all know that in the world of professional cameras, large rental houses and studios get a deal on equipment, usually a damn good deal and we all know that having to go through the dealer process for a professional camera is just another layer of costs.  This doesn't mean some dealers are not worth the money, but it doesn't mean that most of them are just gate keepers that have the makers phone number you don't have.  

Today, it's more than money, it's accountability.  Heck, Nikon is catching a ration of grief over charging 8 grand for a 25mpx camera which by all accounts has amazing image quality and has the ability to focus on the head of a pin.    Nobody is going to drop coin and wait, or worse drop coin and get a response from a maker that the lens, finder, grip, software, is tbd at a later date.

On the flip side if Nikon (or anyone)  made a camera with real 2k raw video, manual settings, 25mpx stills and come out with a 35mm 1.4 lens, those cameras would sell off the shelf. If they had made the D3x where the sensor is modular and can be changed as new technology is available everyone would feel a lot more secure in writing the check and buying a case full of lenses.

Instead some people will buy, most people will wait.
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erick.boileau
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« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2008, 10:47:13 AM »
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except video I don't really see what you can do with RED ?
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Nemo
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« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2008, 10:48:31 AM »
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Quote from: bcooter
I wish Leica well, hope the camera comes out working on all fronts with all the lenses on the shelf, (and under a billion dollars) though if Leica doesn't put a cmos sensor in that thing and offer actual high iso, they can pretty much wrap up the whole thought of selling these things in bulk because nobody needs another slow iso camera that shoots one frame every year and a half.

Current DSLR cameras and MF cameras and backs are different things, for different uses:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat...mp;changemode=1

R.
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jing q
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« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2008, 10:53:25 AM »
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Quote from: Nemo
The professionals using Hasselblad, Mamiya or even Canon or Nikon's high resolution cameras for studio work, for instance.

why would the professionals using hassy or mamiya spend another $30k to get a new camera?
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csp
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« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2008, 11:20:31 AM »
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Quote from: Nemo
Current DSLR cameras and MF cameras and backs are different things, for different uses:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat...mp;changemode=1

R.


we can go over this forever, but please tell me how many % of real work do you think needs higer resolution than a 24mx cam with "prime lense" can deliver ? and how many mf files are scaled down before printing ?
sure there are some applications where a high resolution makes sense but hasselblad or phase would be a far better option from a professional standpoint than a developing system with less or no support and nothing to rent.
this camera will probably mark the end of leica as we know it panasonic will get the  brand name cheap.


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bcooter
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« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2008, 11:21:44 AM »
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Quote from: Nemo
Current DSLR cameras and MF cameras and backs are different things, for different uses:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat...mp;changemode=1

R.


Everytime someone tosses out one of these comparisons the subject isn't moving.

If what your shooting has a heartbeat or moves faster than a tax refund check then you'll find that a 12mpx image in focus without blur has 10 times more real detail than a soft 31, 33 and 39mpx image.



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csp
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« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2008, 11:39:01 AM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Everytime someone tosses out one of these comparisons the subject isn't moving.

If what your shooting has a heartbeat or moves faster than a tax refund check then you'll find that a 12mpx image in focus without blur has 10 times more real detail than a soft 31, 33 and 39mpx image.


not only that,  if you shot large projects you have to manage tera bytes of data.  wonder how many of them who are so keen on more resolution have experienced this ?
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jing q
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« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2008, 12:00:03 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Everytime someone tosses out one of these comparisons the subject isn't moving.

If what your shooting has a heartbeat or moves faster than a tax refund check then you'll find that a 12mpx image in focus without blur has 10 times more real detail than a soft 31, 33 and 39mpx image.

amen. Used to be that a 4x5 camera with some blur still had a nice texture in the blurred area...but with digital?just a nice clean lump of blur.
moving objects/handheld? Stick to a canon.
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