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Author Topic: MTF graphs for the first 4 Leica S2 lenses !!!!  (Read 20977 times)
John Camp
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« Reply #100 on: January 04, 2009, 07:23:21 PM »
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Quote from: carstenw
I am a bit sceptical myself, to be honest. I think that the basic idea is good, but execution will determine the success.

I'm afraid that even good execution will leave the camera facing the question, "Why should I buy an unestablished camera for a very large amount of money, when I could buy an industry standard like Hasselblad?" There are a few possible answers -- handiness, perhaps, an extra stop, maybe, but are those answers compelling for the *mass* of MF shooters? I think the real story in MF digital is that the market is small enough, and the money large enough, that eventually one or two companies will survive, and the others will go away. Leica is starting far enough back that it is severely handicapped.

The other advantage to the Hassy-style removable back system is that there are always beginners looking for used equipment, while the pros want to move up to the latest stuff -- so, you sell the old back and buy a new one. With Leica, you sell the whole camera just to get the new sensor. Believe it or not, the box costs something.

Also, to tell the truth, Leica has not been good at cutting-edge tech since the M3; they've simply lost the culture, I'm afraid. They are also behind the curve on software. The M8 (one of which I own) is capable of excellent images, but in many ways, was a kludge. Now it is pretty much obsolete. The Leica forum has a series of comparisons between the Panasonic Micro 4/3 G1 and the Leica M8, which the Leica wins in terms of sharpness using native lenses for both systems, but it doesn't win by much - and the G1 can handle M glass with an adapter, has focus-confirm which eliminates the M's ystem-wide problems with front-and-back focus, and it costs *$600.* That's *one-tenth* the cost of a new M8.2.

I think the S2 may turn out to be Leica's fatal mistake (but, I could be wrong -- maybe the camera will be so good that MF users will be throwing their Hassys into the nearest ditch.) Still, I wish they'd put the money into a EVF/live view/focus-confirming/FF/cutting edge sensor/ rangefinder-styled camera...

Leica reminds me a bit of IBM when the first desktop computers came out -- from a position of dominance in PC production, IBM was always too conservative and expensive, always predicting that X amount of memory was more than anyone could reasonably use, "why would anybody want more than 64K?" and wound up losing their asses to the likes of Dell. Like IBM in the 80's, Leica seems to me to have a culture that simply doesn't understand the new thing.

JC    
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eronald
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« Reply #101 on: January 04, 2009, 07:35:06 PM »
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Let's shorten that down to "Leica got old". Now, debate !

Edmund

Quote from: John Camp
I'm afraid that even good execution will leave the camera facing the question, "Why should I buy an unestablished camera for a very large amount of money, when I could buy an industry standard like Hasselblad?" There are a few possible answers -- handiness, perhaps, an extra stop, maybe, but are those answers compelling for the *mass* of MF shooters? I think the real story in MF digital is that the market is small enough, and the money large enough, that eventually one or two companies will survive, and the others will go away. Leica is starting far enough back that it is severely handicapped.

The other advantage to the Hassy-style removable back system is that there are always beginners looking for used equipment, while the pros want to move up to the latest stuff -- so, you sell the old back and buy a new one. With Leica, you sell the whole camera just to get the new sensor. Believe it or not, the box costs something.

Also, to tell the truth, Leica has not been good at cutting-edge tech since the M3; they've simply lost the culture, I'm afraid. They are also behind the curve on software. The M8 (one of which I own) is capable of excellent images, but in many ways, was a kludge. Now it is pretty much obsolete. The Leica forum has a series of comparisons between the Panasonic Micro 4/3 G1 and the Leica M8, which the Leica wins in terms of sharpness using native lenses for both systems, but it doesn't win by much - and the G1 can handle M glass with an adapter, has focus-confirm which eliminates the M's ystem-wide problems with front-and-back focus, and it costs *$600.* That's *one-tenth* the cost of a new M8.2.

I think the S2 may turn out to be Leica's fatal mistake (but, I could be wrong -- maybe the camera will be so good that MF users will be throwing their Hassys into the nearest ditch.) Still, I wish they'd put the money into a EVF/live view/focus-confirming/FF/cutting edge sensor/ rangefinder-styled camera...

Leica reminds me a bit of IBM when the first desktop computers came out -- from a position of dominance in PC production, IBM was always too conservative and expensive, always predicting that X amount of memory was more than anyone could reasonably use, "why would anybody want more than 64K?" and wound up losing their asses to the likes of Dell. Like IBM in the 80's, Leica seems to me to have a culture that simply doesn't understand the new thing.

JC
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Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
KevinA
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« Reply #102 on: January 05, 2009, 05:28:27 AM »
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Quote from: jing q
?

I find it hard to see where the Leica's going to fit in professionally.

Well if my business picks up at some point, it would find a home in my bag. But as business has all but vanished my Canons are looking like a bit of a luxury at the moment, in 2007 I thought them as cheap as chips!
I would be happy with a range of lenses that performed across the image and if the money is available I would not consider them a luxury item.

Kevin.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 05:41:49 AM by KevinA » Logged

Kevin.
paulmoorestudio
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« Reply #103 on: January 05, 2009, 07:25:23 AM »
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1. leica is not meant for the masses, never has been and I hope it never will
2. what sad times we would be in if there were no aspriational equipment to work for..
   I did not become a photographer to shoot with chinese mass produced equipment..
   part of the joy of the medium was the equipment..I am not ashamed to admit that,
   and make no apologies for being successful enough to afford what I thought was the
   best tools to work with.. and I guess we each judge what is best in different ways.
   I hope for the sake of those young photographers out there that there will be some
   stuff to dream about..regardless of what is needed to satisfy the client.  





Quote from: John Camp
I'm afraid that even good execution will leave the camera facing the question, "Why should I buy an unestablished camera for a very large amount of money, when I could buy an industry standard like Hasselblad?" There are a few possible answers -- handiness, perhaps, an extra stop, maybe, but are those answers compelling for the *mass* of MF shooters? I think the real story in MF digital is that the market is small enough, and the money large enough, that eventually one or two companies will survive, and the others will go away. Leica is starting far enough back that it is severely handicapped.

The other advantage to the Hassy-style removable back system is that there are always beginners looking for used equipment, while the pros want to move up to the latest stuff -- so, you sell the old back and buy a new one. With Leica, you sell the whole camera just to get the new sensor. Believe it or not, the box costs something.

Also, to tell the truth, Leica has not been good at cutting-edge tech since the M3; they've simply lost the culture, I'm afraid. They are also behind the curve on software. The M8 (one of which I own) is capable of excellent images, but in many ways, was a kludge. Now it is pretty much obsolete. The Leica forum has a series of comparisons between the Panasonic Micro 4/3 G1 and the Leica M8, which the Leica wins in terms of sharpness using native lenses for both systems, but it doesn't win by much - and the G1 can handle M glass with an adapter, has focus-confirm which eliminates the M's ystem-wide problems with front-and-back focus, and it costs *$600.* That's *one-tenth* the cost of a new M8.2.

I think the S2 may turn out to be Leica's fatal mistake (but, I could be wrong -- maybe the camera will be so good that MF users will be throwing their Hassys into the nearest ditch.) Still, I wish they'd put the money into a EVF/live view/focus-confirming/FF/cutting edge sensor/ rangefinder-styled camera...

Leica reminds me a bit of IBM when the first desktop computers came out -- from a position of dominance in PC production, IBM was always too conservative and expensive, always predicting that X amount of memory was more than anyone could reasonably use, "why would anybody want more than 64K?" and wound up losing their asses to the likes of Dell. Like IBM in the 80's, Leica seems to me to have a culture that simply doesn't understand the new thing.

JC
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erick.boileau
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« Reply #104 on: January 05, 2009, 07:41:41 AM »
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S2 seems really fine but  will Leica  still be alive for a S3 is not sure at all
every Leica users have enough to wait for a R10 or  M9  (the M8.2 is a joke)  
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KevinA
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« Reply #105 on: January 05, 2009, 08:16:44 AM »
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Quote from: erick.boileau
S2 seems really fine but  will Leica  still be alive for a S3 is not sure at all
every Leica users have enough to wait for a R10 or  M9  (the M8.2 is a joke)

Well not as good as I would like to make me buy it, but it isn't a joke.

Kevin.
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Kevin.
erick.boileau
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« Reply #106 on: January 05, 2009, 10:59:35 AM »
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I mean I don't see any reason to upgrade from M8 to M8 II
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John Camp
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« Reply #107 on: January 05, 2009, 12:03:16 PM »
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Quote from: paulmoorestudio
1. leica is not meant for the masses, never has been and I hope it never will
2. what sad times we would be in if there were no aspriational equipment to work for..
   I did not become a photographer to shoot with chinese mass produced equipment..
   part of the joy of the medium was the equipment..I am not ashamed to admit that,
   and make no apologies for being successful enough to afford what I thought was the
   best tools to work with.. and I guess we each judge what is best in different ways.
   I hope for the sake of those young photographers out there that there will be some
   stuff to dream about..regardless of what is needed to satisfy the client.

I would hope you became a photographer to shoot photographs, not to use the neat equipment...8-)

Yours is a romantic statement, and I understand what you're saying, but there's also some business judgment involved for most people. You can take Hassy (and you know what the system looks like because it's here) or you can take a financially delicate company's promises. So you spend $30,000 on a body and two lenses, and then...the company founders, and there is no support, and there are no more lenses, and there is no S3, and all that heavy learning curve you've just pushed through is for naught. That might well not happen, but then again, it might...and it's your $30,000.

If it were my $30,000, I would regretfully make the decision that I don't want to take the risk. Now, if Leica blooms with a full system, all at once, and if it is remarkably advanced in image quality over everything else out there...then I could see some people jumping on it. But you know what? That ain't gonna happen. The image quality is going to be good for it's sensor size, but there will be other cameras that will offer better absolute quality, simply because the sensor is twice as large.

But -- everybody's got to make their own judgment.

JC
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EricWHiss
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« Reply #108 on: January 05, 2009, 12:35:50 PM »
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To me the big question isn't if Leica will be around but rather about their new "pro" service.   I'm still bitter about having to wait several months for my R8 camera body to be repaired.  Let's see same day turnaround for my Canon gear through their pro service plus a day of shipping on each side, two day turnaround at the Rollei Hensel service with personal phone calls with updates, or  with Leica....waiting.... waiting.... waiting... no phone calls, no return of my phone calls, then weeks later a letter arrives with a printed estimate which they expect me to sign and mail back (in my own envelope that I have to address) to authorize service. Two weeks lost just to get an authorization to proceed with the repair! That's nuts!   The generation where business was conducted with letters was replaced with faxes, then e-mail replaced faxes.  Leica is at least two eons behind in customer service.   I actually got the first update about my Leica camera that was in for service from my Rollei technician who knows the Leica techs.  Can you believe that?  I have no doubt that the files will be good, but if Leica want's to offer a camera to pros the first thing they need to do is revamp their customer service.  No pro is going to wait months for a camera to be repaired.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 12:38:58 PM by EricWHiss » Logged

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KevinA
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« Reply #109 on: January 05, 2009, 05:16:18 PM »
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Quote from: erick.boileau
I mean I don't see any reason to upgrade from M8 to M8 II

Yeah agreed, it needed a lot more for me, I like the idea of no flapping mirror and quality lenses, if only it performed at higher iso and a few more pixels.

Kevin.
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Kevin.
paulmoorestudio
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« Reply #110 on: January 05, 2009, 10:09:48 PM »
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of course, that is why I said it is part of the equation for me..and for everyone..even those with holgas..they have made some connection with the plastic and it works for them..I like shooting with my iphone camera..not because of the low quality but I like the equipment.
when I was yearning to have a linhof, I was shooting with a $150 burke & james monorail..and the pictures were as good as if shot with the linhof, but I like a lot of shooters like the elegance, engineering and committment to excellence that some manufactures achieve..
 the difference between image quality with backs/cameras is tiny as it was then, but now that we do all the processing the importance of reliablity becomes much more of an issue..the camera is now has a bigger role..
the only service issue I had was with a rollei lens control for the electronic shutter.. 6 weeks in germany.. and so I have been very lucky over the years.  
maybe I do have a romantic outlook now, thanks.. after being burnt out from 20 years of advertising I thought I had lost it completely.



[quote name='John Camp' date='Jan 5 2009, 07:03 PM' post='249652']
I would hope you became a photographer to shoot photographs, not to use the neat equipment...8-)


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