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Author Topic: What is a fair price for a use p21+?  (Read 14123 times)
Alex MacPherson
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« on: December 28, 2008, 09:28:46 PM »
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I am looking at getting a Phase One P21+ .

What is a fair price for a used p21+ with low mileage?

I have seen a p30 sell for $6500 here and recently a P20 sell for
$4100 on ebay.

Somewhere between those?
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« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2008, 05:45:27 AM »
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Quote from: Dolce Moda Photography
I am looking at getting a Phase One P21+ .

What is a fair price for a used p21+ with low mileage?

I have seen a p30 sell for $6500 here and recently a P20 sell for
$4100 on ebay.

Somewhere between those?
a fair price for the one who is selling or an absurd low price due to the never seen economical difficulties that a big great country brought to the world???

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antonyoung
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« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2008, 06:15:32 AM »
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Quote from: Dolce Moda Photography
I am looking at getting a Phase One P21+ .

What is a fair price for a used p21+ with low mileage?

I have seen a p30 sell for $6500 here and recently a P20 sell for
$4100 on ebay.

Somewhere between those?

I sold a P21+ recently for $6500, so I'd say the market is somewhere around there. Mine was low actuations with about a year and half of value added warranty.
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ixpressraf
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« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2008, 06:29:54 AM »
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6500$ looks a realistic price now.
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Snook
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« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2008, 09:06:10 AM »
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Quote from: Dolce Moda Photography
I am looking at getting a Phase One P21+ .

What is a fair price for a used p21+ with low mileage?

I have seen a p30 sell for $6500 here and recently a P20 sell for
$4100 on ebay.

Somewhere between those?
6500 for a P30 I think is a Joke..
I'll Buy everyone you can find for that price..:+]

If you can get a good P30 for 6500.. Buy it right away..:+]
Snook
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Dave Gallagher
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« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2008, 09:46:56 AM »
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Quote from: Snook
6500 for a P30 I think is a Joke..
I'll Buy everyone you can find for that price..:+]

If you can get a good P30 for 6500.. Buy it right away..:+]
Snook


Snook is absolutely correct.   These are foolishly low prices most likely due to economic hardship of the seller.   If you can get either of those for that low of a price then you should jump on it.    Today a P21+ with a 1 year warranty would go for $8990 and above 9K for anything with a value added warranty.  These 2 prices are if you purchased through a reputable dealer that will then provide tech and product support.  One other thing to be aware of is that a used unit through a dealer will have a valid copy of C1 Pro or DB whereas the used software code usually does not transfer from and enduser.  This could add $399 in cost to you later.
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Josef Isayo
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« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2008, 09:57:22 AM »
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Quote from: Dave Gallagher
Snook is absolutely correct.   These are foolishly low prices most likely due to economic hardship of the seller.   If you can get either of those for that low of a price then you should jump on it.    Today a P21+ with a 1 year warranty would go for $8990 and above 9K for anything with a value added warranty.  These 2 prices are if you purchased through a reputable dealer that will then provide tech and product support.  One other thing to be aware of is that a used unit through a dealer will have a valid copy of C1 Pro or DB whereas the used software code usually does not transfer from and enduser.  This could add $399 in cost to you later.


How much would it cost to have the P21+ compatible with a Contax 645?


Thanks!
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antonyoung
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« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2008, 10:42:35 AM »
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Quote from: Dave Gallagher
Snook is absolutely correct.   These are foolishly low prices most likely due to economic hardship of the seller.   If you can get either of those for that low of a price then you should jump on it.    Today a P21+ with a 1 year warranty would go for $8990 and above 9K for anything with a value added warranty.  These 2 prices are if you purchased through a reputable dealer that will then provide tech and product support.  One other thing to be aware of is that a used unit through a dealer will have a valid copy of C1 Pro or DB whereas the used software code usually does not transfer from and enduser.  This could add $399 in cost to you later.

Dave, I love you but you and Snook are both incorrect. The P30 for $6500 that was mentioned was advertised on this forum and I bought it. I don't think there was too much of a stampede to get it, so I think that's market value, and considering that last year I could get a refurb P30 from a dealer for $10K, $6500 from an end user this year I don't think should surprise anybody. There has been another used P30 H listed on ebay five times in a row with a buy it now of $7500 which has never sold. I have offered the seller $6500 each time and he has declined it, but I think we can safely say that the market value of a used P30 is below $7500, since no one has bought it for that over a period of five listings, and ebay is the biggest market there is for used gear.

The P21+ that I sold went for $6500 on this forum to another forum member after I lowered the price $500/week starting at $9000. I think we can safely say that $6500 is also the market for a P21+. If you think it's below market, the buyer has decided medium format is not for him and has relisted it for sale on this forum and on ebay, you could buy it and resell it higher if it were actually below market. However if it were actually below market I would have done that already myself

Current market value for used Phase backs, based on prices I personally have paid or received in the last few months:

P21+, value added $6500
P30, $6500
P30+, $11,500
P30+, value added $12,500
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 01:12:11 PM by antonyoung » Logged
Alex MacPherson
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« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2008, 11:02:03 AM »
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Quote from: antonyoung
Dave, I love you but you and Snook are both incorrect. The P30 for $6500 that was mentioned was advertised on this forum and I bought it. I don't think there was too much of a stampede to get it, so I think that's market value, and considering that last year I could get a refurb P30 from a dealer for $10K, $6500 from an end user this year I don't think should surprise anybody. There has been another used P30 H listed on ebay five times in a row with a buy it now of $7500 which has never sold. I have offered the seller $6500 each time and he has declined it, but I think we can safely say that the market value of a used P30 is below $7500, since no one has bought it for that over a period of five listings, and ebay is the biggest market there is for used gear.

The P21+ that I sold went for $6500 on this forum to another forum member after I lowered the price $500/week starting at $9000. I think we can safely say that $6500 is also the market for a P21+. If you think it's below market, the buyer has decided medium format is not for him and has relisted it for sale on this forum and on ebay, you could buy it and resell it higher if it were actually below market. However if it were actually below market I would have done that already myself

Current market value for used Phase backs, based on prices I personally have paid or received in the last few months:

P21+, value added $6500
P30, $6500
P31+, $11,500
P31+, value added $12,500

Anton is correct. The selling price for these backs has dropped dramatically. This is why I have decided to make the move to MFDB .
I have been doing my research and have seen so far:

P30   $6500
P20   $4100
P21+ $6250
P21+ $5600 (currently listed in the for sale area: I'd buy it but I need H mount)

I was going to buy the P30 that Anton bought but I was too slow on the trigger.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 11:07:19 AM by Dolce Moda Photography » Logged

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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2008, 11:45:22 AM »
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Quote from: antonyoung
Current market value for used Phase backs, based on prices I personally have paid or received in the last few months:

P21+, value added $6500
P30, $6500
P31+, $11,500
P31+, value added $12,500

Could you edit your posting to clarify? A P31+ does not exist and I know you know your stuff so it must have been a mistype.

Used gear from an individual will often be less expensive, but always represents a bigger gamble/certainty and less support than from a dealer. Pick your poison.

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer  |  Personal Portfolio
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bcooter
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« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2008, 11:51:01 AM »
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Quote from: Dolce Moda Photography
Anton is correct. The selling price for these backs has dropped dramatically. This is why I have decided to make the move to MFDB .
I have been doing my research and have seen so far:

P30   $6500
P20   $4100
P21+ $6250
P21+ $5600 (currently listed in the for sale area: I'd buy it but I need H mount)

I was going to buy the P30 that Anton bought but I was too slow on the trigger.


The upside to these back prices is if you've been renting, you can buy a quality medium format back for less than a few weeks rental.

The downside is if you paid retail you'd think you just bought a house in Vegas in 2007.

I've thought about selling my backs because they get less and less use, but in the end, I can't buy them for what I'd sell them for and once again, why rent when you can own?





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antonyoung
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« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2008, 01:05:09 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
Could you edit your posting to clarify? A P31+ does not exist and I know you know your stuff so it must have been a mistype.

Used gear from an individual will often be less expensive, but always represents a bigger gamble/certainty and less support than from a dealer. Pick your poison.

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer  |  Personal Portfolio

Sorry, yes I meant P30+ rather than P31+ in both instances. I'm not one of these "medium format is dead" or "Canon is just as good" types, obviously. But I do see a big challenge for medium format back makers this year, not from Hasselblad or Canon or Nikon, but from all the guys who bought from them last year or the year before. A lot of those people don't have the business or the finances to justify the purchase, and changes in the economy have forced them to look at that, cut bait, and put the backs up for sale. I've been buying backs with 2-3K actuations- I bought one H1 body with only 5 actuations! It's a complete buyers market, and most of the gear is practically new. Consequently prices have dropped through the floor on used gear. The used market is the big competition that medium format manufacturers and dealers will face this year. There is no replacement for the P30+ and they are readily available now used. The P65+ is expensive but has some compelling new features and I'll be buying at some point, but at the same time for most people the P65+ at $40K is up against $16-18K used P45+'s, usually with a warranty which transfers, and sometimes with cameras thrown in to boot. That's a tough sell.
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paul_jones
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« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2008, 01:24:19 PM »
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whats the cheapest a used H mount p45 around? i assume these will be quite affordable when the 65+ ships.

paul
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« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2008, 01:30:12 PM »
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Quote from: antonyoung
Sorry, yes I meant P30+ rather than P31+ in both instances. I'm not one of these "medium format is dead" or "Canon is just as good" types, obviously. But I do see a big challenge for medium format back makers this year, not from Hasselblad or Canon or Nikon, but from all the guys who bought from them last year or the year before. A lot of those people don't have the business or the finances to justify the purchase, and changes in the economy have forced them to look at that, cut bait, and put the backs up for sale. I've been buying backs with 2-3K actuations- I bought one H1 body with only 5 actuations! It's a complete buyers market, and most of the gear is practically new. Consequently prices have dropped through the floor on used gear. The used market is the big competition that medium format manufacturers and dealers will face this year. There is no replacement for the P30+ and they are readily available now used. The P65+ is expensive but has some compelling new features and I'll be buying at some point, but at the same time for most people the P65+ at $40K is up against $16-18K used P45+'s, usually with a warranty which transfers, and sometimes with cameras thrown in to boot. That's a tough sell.

I think the same things could be said for anyone selling homes (foreclosed properties are cheap), cars (flooded market of used cars and unsold 2008 models), or in general anything at all.

2009 will be a challenge for everyone. The recipe for success is the same as ever: focus on customer service, probe new markets, find ways to differentiate yourself (in this case from used gear) and give your customers value they can't find elsewhere. We are offering some of the best available training and setup on new backs for customers who are new to medium format, and getting creative on upgrades/trade-ins for customers who are moving up within the medium format world. The Value Added Warranty on new Phase One products are arguable the strongest warranty in the industry. And for those that are sitting on cash great deals are being had both individual-to-individual and at dealerships (car, boat, and digital back dealerships alike).

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer  |  Personal Portfolio
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« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2008, 01:48:11 PM »
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Quote from: antonyoung
A lot of those people don't have the business or the finances to justify the purchase, and changes in the economy have forced them to look at that, cut bait, and put the backs up for sale.


Anton my man, this is the point that I was making.  That you can find deals through end users that need the cash but that does not mean that your price points are correct.   In fact, you can't post a price on a DB and say this is "market rate".  There are too many factors that affect pricing on a digital back.  For Phase One DB's specifically....

1) What is the warranty left?  
2) Classic or Value Added?  
3) Has the free swap occurred or do you still have a swap left?
4) What is the shot count?
5) If it is a non plus, has it had the live focus firmware upgrade?
6) Does it come with C1 Pro?  Will it have a valid C1 DB code?
7) Will you get dealer product and tech support?

So yes, deals can be found out there.  But a 60,000 shot count, no warranty, no support, no C1 pro software digital back will be substantially cheaper then the same exact model and mount with all that I listed.

Anyone discounting the value of buying from a dealer should look at examples lately on this board.   We should be thought of as a resource and a business partner.  We will go to all lengths to help our customers and we have the manufacturer's partnership and ear for issues.

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Sincerely,

Dave Gallagher
President
Capture Integration
http://www.captureintegration.com

PHASE ONE PARTNER OF THE YEAR

Atlanta    (404) 522-7662
Miami      (305) 534-5701
National   (877) 217-9870
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« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2008, 01:54:56 PM »
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It was 4500 count, no warranty, classic, no free swap, no c1 pro, old firmware, but working flawlessly and sold because of economic hardship... and probably more backs will be sold by others dealing with this economic DEPRESSION.  Have sold half my lenses as well.

Furthermore, there were five interested buyers.. so the market is not dead... I think I may have underpriced due to panic.

Quote from: Dave Gallagher
Anton my man, this is the point that I was making.  That you can find deals through end users that need the cash but that does not mean that your price points are correct.   In fact, you can't post a price on a DB and say this is "market rate".  There are too many factors that affect pricing on a digital back.  For Phase One DB's specifically....

1) What is the warranty left?  
2) Classic or Value Added?  
3) Has the free swap occurred or do you still have a swap left?
4) What is the shot count?
5) If it is a non plus, has it had the live focus firmware upgrade?
6) Does it come with C1 Pro?  Will it have a valid C1 DB code?
7) Will you get dealer product and tech support?

So yes, deals can be found out there.  But a 60,000 shot count, no warranty, no support, no C1 pro software digital back will be substantially cheaper then the same exact model and mount with all that I listed.

Anyone discounting the value of buying from a dealer should look at examples lately on this board.   We should be thought of as a resource and a business partner.  We will go to all lengths to help our customers and we have the manufacturer's partnership and ear for issues.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 01:56:53 PM by pookipichu » Logged
evgeny
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« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2008, 02:52:11 PM »
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It depends, if you are looking for a quick buy of MFDB or a good deal.
I bought my Sinarback 54M some months ago for $5200 including delivery.
In my opinion a good deal today for a 22 mega pixels back with a preview screen (can shoot un-tethered) is $5000-$5900.
I think P21+ has less mega pixels, I think it worth $4000-$4500 if it can make a very long exposures and that is important to you, otherwise I would buy a 22 megapixels back.

If you are a seller, then it's a different story.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 02:58:15 PM by evgeny » Logged
antonyoung
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« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2008, 03:36:36 PM »
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Quote from: Dave Gallagher
Anton my man, this is the point that I was making.  That you can find deals through end users that need the cash but that does not mean that your price points are correct.   In fact, you can't post a price on a DB and say this is "market rate".  There are too many factors that affect pricing on a digital back.  For Phase One DB's specifically....

1) What is the warranty left?  
2) Classic or Value Added?  
3) Has the free swap occurred or do you still have a swap left?
4) What is the shot count?
5) If it is a non plus, has it had the live focus firmware upgrade?
6) Does it come with C1 Pro?  Will it have a valid C1 DB code?
7) Will you get dealer product and tech support?

So yes, deals can be found out there.  But a 60,000 shot count, no warranty, no support, no C1 pro software digital back will be substantially cheaper then the same exact model and mount with all that I listed.

Anyone discounting the value of buying from a dealer should look at examples lately on this board.   We should be thought of as a resource and a business partner.  We will go to all lengths to help our customers and we have the manufacturer's partnership and ear for issues.

Just to be clear, I'm all about the dealer and in no way meant to cut into any dealers business. I'm in a position where I have enough warranty contracts that I'm pretty much covered on support when I need it. So my buying position is different from that of someone who doesn't currently own a back and is looking to buy their first one. I get the value added on all my new backs, and am willing to pay a premium for it on used ones, so I get your point above.

I went to Wikipedia to educate myself a bit on market value and came up with the following:

Quote
Market value is a concept distinct from market price, which is “the price at which one can transact”, while market value is “the true underlying value” according to theoretical standards. The concept is most commonly invoked in inefficient markets or disequilibrium situations where prevailing market prices are not reflective of true underlying market value. For market price to equal market value, the market must be informationally efficient and rational expectations must prevail. Market value is also distinct from fair value in that fair value depends on the parties involved, while market value does not.

I think I am talking about either market price or fair value, while you are talking about market value. I've been on both sides of the transaction in the last few months, and it seems to me that what matters is the price I can get a buyer to pay (if I'm selling) or what price I'm willing to pay (if I'm buying). If there's an abstract market value greater than that, it does me no good if I can't get a buyer who'll pay it. I thought $9K was a reasonable market value for my P21+, especially considering what I paid for it the year before and how little I'd used it, but the market thought otherwise. Likewise at $8500, $8000, $7500, and $7000. I got nibbles and feints but nobody who would pony up any cash until $6500. So maybe I sold below market value, but at market price. In any case, I think by the time the economy had recovered to the point that there were more buyers for an item of that dollar amount, technology would have marched on the point that there would be less buyers for a P21+, so I doubt I would have gotten any higher price by waiting.
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Alex MacPherson
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« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2008, 07:50:22 PM »
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Technology marches on. The P21+ back is an 18MP back.

Today the 5Dmkii is 21MP and $3K.
Now I and most people here know that there is a big difference between the image quality between the two;
 in the back of most peoples' minds they are thinking "it's only 18MP".

I shoot fashion/beauty. I want the richness and color that comes with a MFDB  and the ability to make crops and still get a large image. When I
shoot macro beauty with what I have now... there is a limit to how large the print can be if I do any cropping. I don't need speed and I never
shoot above ISO 100.

I am still on a budget. I just want the most bang for my buck. I lucked into getting a Hasselblad H1 for peanuts ...from some rich person who
bought it and never used it aside from the odd birthday party.

My goal is to try to get a MFDB for around the same as a Canon 1Ds Mk III
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« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2008, 03:47:21 AM »
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Quote from: Dolce Moda Photography
My goal is to try to get a MFDB for around the same as a Canon 1Ds Mk III

I don't know what the dealer situation is around where you live, but the Sinar eMotion 54 LV has recently dropped in price, and ought to be around that price. It is a 22MP back with 36x48mm size, and user-exchangeable adapters. Now, your dealer network might add a fee on that to push the price out of your range, or you might have no dealer around you who sells Sinar at all, but it would be worth considering.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 03:47:48 AM by carstenw » Logged

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