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Author Topic: What is a fair price for a use p21+?  (Read 13884 times)
ziocan
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« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2008, 02:24:26 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
Kumar, C1 DB comes free and is easily/readily available to the public. There is no difference between C1 Pro and C1 DB when using a digital back. However, Capture One DB will not work with Canon/Nikon/Leica files.

Since many (most?) Phase owners have both a Phase One back and a Canon/Nikon/Leica. Having C1 Pro means you can use the same program to process all of your images (and tether to your Canons) and keep a more coherent workflow.

If you have zero interest in Nikon/Canon/Leica then C1 DB = C1 Pro.

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer  |  Personal Portfolio
So if someone who got the DB version what to get the C1 pro has to buy from "scratch"?
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2008, 02:55:35 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Haven't you seen the Phase One videos.  Heck they cook their backs on a George Forman Grill and drive a car over them or something like that, so unless you leave it outside in the rain, it's probably going to be OK.

If you're going to leave the back in the rain, please use the Port Covers we sell. (fancy name for rubber stoppers which cover the firewire, sync, and multiport ports.

Kidding, mostly.

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer  |  Personal Portfolio
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
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Phase One IQ250 FAQ
Doug Peterson
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« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2008, 03:00:21 PM »
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Quote from: ziocan
So if someone who got the DB version what to get the C1 pro has to buy from "scratch"?

That's correct. There is no "upgrade" price from DB since it is free and publicly available.

You would need to buy a normal copy of C1 Pro for $300. One of the many gotchya's we've been talking about when discussing private-seller versus dealer-assisted used purchases, especially if you are relatively new to medium format or to Phase One.

Doug

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer  |  Personal Portfolio
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
Kumar
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« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2008, 06:04:13 PM »
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Quote from: dougpetersonci
Kumar, C1 DB comes free and is easily/readily available to the public. There is no difference between C1 Pro and C1 DB when using a digital back. However, Capture One DB will not work with Canon/Nikon/Leica files.

Since many (most?) Phase owners have both a Phase One back and a Canon/Nikon/Leica. Having C1 Pro means you can use the same program to process all of your images (and tether to your Canons) and keep a more coherent workflow.

If you have zero interest in Nikon/Canon/Leica then C1 DB = C1 Pro.

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer  |  Personal Portfolio

Doug,

That's the gotcha I was talking about. Perhaps Dave could amend his post, where he says "One other thing to be aware of is that a used unit through a dealer will have a valid copy of C1 Pro or DB whereas the used software code usually does not transfer from and enduser. This could add $399 in cost to you later." and in a later post when he asks "Does it come with C1 Pro? Will it have a valid C1 DB code?" If a transfer of the license is possible an enduser could deal with PhaseOne directly. If the software with the back is the DB version, it does not matter, since it's free.

Kumar
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antonyoung
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« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2008, 06:09:30 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Honestly the value added thing somewhat bothers me.  I don't mind paying for service, I don't mind paying a premium for a an extended warranty, but at the costs of most of these items 2 years minimum should be standard and once again, if you drop it, it's going to be on you anyway.

The real reasons to buy the valued added warranty are for the loaner and for the platform swap option. If it's out of warranty I think the minimum repair charge is $2500. I've had a power button stop working on one back and a firewire port go out on another, but other than that no problems with any Phase backs. I got a loaner in both cases same day, and each one was in Denmark a week at least. Since the dealers make a lot (most?) of their money from the value added, you can usually work a better deal on a back with a value added warranty than a classic warranty, so in the end the value added comes out to less than the $3000.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2008, 06:55:34 PM »
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Quote from: Kumar
Doug,

That's the gotcha I was talking about. Perhaps Dave could amend his post, where he says "One other thing to be aware of is that a used unit through a dealer will have a valid copy of C1 Pro or DB whereas the used software code usually does not transfer from and enduser. This could add $399 in cost to you later." and in a later post when he asks "Does it come with C1 Pro? Will it have a valid C1 DB code?" If a transfer of the license is possible an enduser could deal with PhaseOne directly. If the software with the back is the DB version, it does not matter, since it's free.

Kumar

See this is the kind of "seems simple, but isn't" that can catch you off guard (and frequently catches people off guard; i know because I take those calls).

The copy of C1 Pro included with a Value Added P1 Digital Back, once activated by someone, is technically (TOS in the software agreement) not allowed to be "transferred" to someone else. Now in practice there is nothing stopping one from having the seller change the password linked to the activation and then giving that password to the buyer. However, in practice buyers don't generally know to ask these things, and sellers who wouldn't even know how to change the password linked to that activation even if they wanted to. I can tell you that I've personally taken at least 10 calls this year from buyers of private-seller digital backs which were originally purchased with a Value Added Warranty asking how they could activate their copy of C1 Pro that they assumed was included when they purchased it.

Also, there are still quite a few people using Capture One 3.7 DB (for any number of reasons including the inability to run 4.5 Pro on OSX 10.4 or on a Power PC). With 3.7 DB you DO need a license which is given to the original buyer (whereas with 4.5 DB you do not need a license).

There are six versions of Capture One still being used (4.5 Pro, 4.5, 4.5 DB, 3.7 Pro, 3.7 LE, 3.7 DB) and varying upgrade policies and activation methods. It sounds pretty complicated (more than it really is), and if you're new to MFD there are many things like this which are simply much more efficient to work through with a dealer than to research on your own. It's not that you can't easily find the answer to questions by googling, it's that there are questions you should ask a private seller that you don't even know you need to ask.

I would say it is similar to buying a house without a real estate agent. Yes you can do it on your own, and nominally you might be able to save money since there is no middle man. But unless you've bought several homes in the past and unless you are very thorough you're likely to end up missing something (software, upgrade privileges, missing accessories, worn out batteries/accessories, warranty, repair history, special features like Live View, platform-swap privileges etc etc) that could easily erase that price gap. Just as one of a zillion examples: a seller who only shoots landscapes may not know that their flash sync port or firewire port are non-functional. Plus, if you go through a dealer and there is a problem that they are slow to fix then you can hold their feet to the fire on a forum like this.

Just a few months ago we sold a used back to a customer who took a jewelers magnifying loupe to the CCD filter and noticed a very very small nick outside of the photosensitive area of the sensor (i.e. it could not effect the final image). The gentlemen was very nice and easy to deal with, and when he insisted that he receive another back we found him another back with which he was happy. A good dealer can and will do that because we genuinely want our customers to be happy and because our long term success depends on our reputation.

Anyway, I'm as biased as can be because
1) my salary comes from a dealer and
2) I end up dealing with the mess/anger/frustration left behind by botched private sales when the buyer ends up without software, or with two batteries that barely hold any charge, or a broken component, or a scratch on a CCD. We get a call like that at least once a month. It's not pleasant. Sure there is PayPal buyer protection, or you could sue the seller or whatever, but how much of a PITA will that end up being? Trust me, chatting with a friendly dealer is much more fun than filling out PayPal buyer protection forms :-).

-- End shameless plug for buying from dealers --

Doug Peterson,  Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer  |  Personal Portfolio
« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 06:57:39 PM by dougpetersonci » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
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Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
Kumar
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« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2008, 08:32:09 PM »
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Hey Doug,

I wasn't messing with you  You've helped me enough for me to do that!! I was just asking about the software part. I personally have found Ulf at PhaseOne to be extremely responsive. I got an activation key for 3.7DB from him without a hassle within a few minutes even though I bought the back directly from another user.

Cheers,
Kumar
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studio-techno
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« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2008, 09:28:32 PM »
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Last closed auction for P-21 + at ebay . com    


Happy New Year

Ended:   Dec-28-08 20:29:43 PST

PHASE ONE P21+ DIGTAL CAMERA BACK FOR HASSELBLAD H1/H2   US $6,250.00
« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 09:31:19 PM by studio-techno » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2009, 03:53:13 AM »
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Quote from: antonyoung
The real reasons to buy the valued added warranty are for the loaner and for the platform swap option. If it's out of warranty I think the minimum repair charge is $2500. I've had a power button stop working on one back and a firewire port go out on another, but other than that no problems with any Phase backs. I got a loaner in both cases same day, and each one was in Denmark a week at least. Since the dealers make a lot (most?) of their money from the value added, you can usually work a better deal on a back with a value added warranty than a classic warranty, so in the end the value added comes out to less than the $3000.



When I first read your reply, I think yea, that makes senses.  Why not spend $3,000 for what amounts to an extended warranty when repairs are $2,500 minimum.

Then I think hold it.  Why is a stuck button cost $2,500 to fix, heck Canon will replace a 1ds Mark III sensor in 3 hours for that price, in fact Canon will sell your a new 21mpx 5d2 camera for close to that price.

The loaner system makes sense if you shoot in NY, your dealer is based across town and you use a popular mount like an H-system and happen to catch the dealer on the day they have one in stock.  For the rest of us, like in Cooter, Mo. waiting for an overnight shipment might as well be two weeks, or two years because by then I've lost a lot more than $3,000 waiting for a replacement, then again I would never shoot any project without a comparable backup so the loaner thing really doesn't gain much traction.

Like you I've had few issues with the phase backs I have owned, except I find the firewire port is always a little loose and flaky feeling, but overall it's a solid piece of equipment.

I understand dealers have overhead, have to make money and I have nothing against the free market system, or even their role.  If an extra $3,000 is worth it to you then it is, plain and simple.  

If you need the dealer support, hand holding, instruction or help then go for it.

Still, $2,500 minimum for any repair?  I think that needs a deep rethink on a lot of levels.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2009, 03:54:22 AM by bcooter » Logged
Streetshooter
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« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2009, 05:48:06 AM »
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Quote from: bcooter
When I first read your reply, I think yea, that makes senses.  Why not spend $3,000 for what amounts to an extended warranty when repairs are $2,500 minimum.

Then I think hold it.  Why is a stuck button cost $2,500 to fix, heck Canon will replace a 1ds Mark III sensor in 3 hours for that price, in fact Canon will sell your a new 21mpx 5d2 camera for close to that price.

The loaner system makes sense if you shoot in NY, your dealer is based across town and you use a popular mount like an H-system and happen to catch the dealer on the day they have one in stock.  For the rest of us, like in Cooter, Mo. waiting for an overnight shipment might as well be two weeks, or two years because by then I've lost a lot more than $3,000 waiting for a replacement, then again I would never shoot any project without a comparable backup so the loaner thing really doesn't gain much traction.

Like you I've had few issues with the phase backs I have owned, except I find the firewire port is always a little loose and flaky feeling, but overall it's a solid piece of equipment.

I understand dealers have overhead, have to make money and I have nothing against the free market system, or even their role.  If an extra $3,000 is worth it to you then it is, plain and simple.  

If you need the dealer support, hand holding, instruction or help then go for it.

Still, $2,500 minimum for any repair?  I think that needs a deep rethink on a lot of levels.



You know, with the ways things are I would have thought Phase One would have encouraged people to use their backs, but $2500 minimum for any repair ?  Come on guys you've just frightened me off of any Phase back. While we're at it, what is the minimum repair cost for any of the other back makers?

I've always thought the MFDB industry behaved like the car industry and look what's happening to that at the moment . Classic and Value added Warranties, upgrade charges, promises of a better model next year, inflated prices and control of the second hand market. Software licences etc. etc.   I think I'll stick to my new Nikon for the time being, it works straight out of the box, no worries or hassles.


Pete
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erick.boileau
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« Reply #50 on: January 01, 2009, 09:21:00 AM »
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I am maybe going to sell my :  P45 - Hasselblad H1 - HC 80mm - Hc 35mm - HC 210mm - film and polaroid Back   (I am in France / Germany)
but I have not  idea how much I can  ask for it ?
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studio-techno
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« Reply #51 on: January 01, 2009, 10:22:00 AM »
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Ended:   Dec-31-08 17:56:06 PST

Hasselblad H1 645 AF kit + Leaf Valeo 22Wi Digital back (22MP)   seller Adorama  Winning bid:   US $5,995.00
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SeanBK
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« Reply #52 on: January 01, 2009, 11:40:29 AM »
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Quote from: Streetshooter
You know, with the ways things are I would have thought Phase One would have encouraged people to use their backs, but $2500 minimum for any repair ?  Come on guys you've just frightened me off of any Phase back. While we're at it, what is the minimum repair cost for any of the other back makers?

I've always thought the MFDB industry behaved like the car industry and look what's happening to that at the moment . Classic and Value added Warranties, upgrade charges, promises of a better model next year, inflated prices and control of the second hand market. Software licences etc. etc.   I think I'll stick to my new Nikon for the time being, it works straight out of the box, no worries or hassles.


Pete

This may not be the exact answer, but thsi along with others should give you a good idea. I dropped my Hasselblad H on concrete floor, jammed the barrel of the lens into camera. Could not focus nor could remove the lens. Barrel was bent, FedEx to HasselbladUSA under $400 they FedEx back to me in three days. I thought it was reasonable, as they said Camera was OK, but replaced the barrel of the lens.
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ziocan
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« Reply #53 on: January 01, 2009, 12:10:14 PM »
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Quote from: bcooter
Still, $2,500 minimum for any repair?  I think that needs a deep rethink on a lot of levels.
If that is true, it is completely unfair way to make commerce.
If the "start" button of my BMW get stock (chances are it never will), first it will be in warranty for 4 years, 2nd they will be there to help me on a matter of 30 minutes, then if i'm out of warranty it will eventually cost few hundred dollars to repair, let's say maybe a thousand but that is a stretch even for BMW.

Charging a minimum tag of 2500$ for any repair, is completely out of this world. That makes me will to sell my Phase back before is out of warranty and go back to rental.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2009, 01:52:26 PM by ziocan » Logged
carstenw
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« Reply #54 on: January 01, 2009, 01:35:34 PM »
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Quote from: ziocan
I think that is completely unfair way to make commerce.
If the "start" button of my BMW get stock (chances are it never will), first it will be in warranty for 4 years, 2nd they will be there to help me on a matter of 30 minutes, then if i'm out of warranty it will eventually cost few hundred dollars to repair, let's say maybe a thousand but that is a stretch even for BMW.

Charging a minimum tag of 2500$ for any repair, is completely out of this world. That makes me will to sell my Phase back before is out of warranty and go back to rental.

Where does that $2500 minimum quote for repair work come from?
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« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2009, 02:16:15 PM »
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Quote from: studio-techno

I saw that but decided I wanted an lcd on the back
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« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2009, 03:27:30 PM »
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Oh, I hate to post this.

I had a bid set up on this, then cancelled it.  I am off on medical, just not up to using it enough to justify it. Plus I am in michigan - really a black hole right now  

Leaf Aptus 75S Digital Camera Back for Hasselblad H $13,100

Sold, from Calumet.  Ebay ID 250344410187  (fixed link)

They have also been blowing out a lot of Profoto and Bron demo stuff at lowish prices.

Maybe just a glut on the market in some areas for a while.  

Best,
Michael
« Last Edit: January 02, 2009, 10:21:39 AM by mmurph » Logged
elitegroup
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« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2009, 07:36:56 PM »
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Quote from: mmurph
Oh, I hate to post this.

I had a bid set up on this, then cancelled it.  I am off on medical, just not up to using it enough to justify it. Plus I am in michigan - really a black hole right now  

[a href=\'index.php?act=findpost&pid=0\']Leaf Aptus 75S Digital Camera Back for Hasselblad H $13,100[/a]

From Calumet.  They have also been blowing out a lot of Profoto and Bron demo stuff at lowish prices.

Maybe just a glut on the market in some areas for a while.  

Best,
Michael

The link doesn't work? where's this located?
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paul_jones
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« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2009, 03:36:03 AM »
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Quote from: elitegroup
The link doesn't work? where's this located?
i saw it on ebay- but its sold

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check my new website
http://www.paulrossjones.com
Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2009, 09:07:06 AM »
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Quote from: carstenw
Where does that $2500 minimum quote for repair work come from?


The statement that Phase One charges a minimum of $2,500 is not correct. Repeat - not correct.

Phase One repair policy is that the cost of the repair is based on the actual parts and labor involved for that repair. And there is no minimum.

Not that digital back repairs aren't expensive - they are, it's an expensive product. But a $389 repair does not cost $2,500.

Please adjust your headsets accordingly.



Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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Steve Hendrix
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
TechCam: Alpa/Cambo/Arca Swiss/Sinar
Direct: 404.543.8475
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