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Author Topic: "The Nikon D3x offers the finest image quality in a DSLR the world has yet seen"  (Read 89656 times)
Ben Rubinstein
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« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2009, 04:01:17 AM »
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If there is practically no difference between the 1Ds mkIII and the D3X then that in essence means that Nikon have released 1.5 year old technology for the price that the technology was when it was brand new. Saying that the 1Ds mkIII cost the same when it was new is ignoring the fact that in 2009 a 20+ megapixel pro DSLR is worth $6500 not $8000. It was worth $8000 - one and a half years ago when Nikon were still sleeping. That amount of time is a huge gap in terms of technology, imagine if computer hardware manufacturers were to bring out 1.5 year old technology at cutting edge prices, they'd be laughed out of the market. The only reason Nikon have been able to do this is due to it's customer base locked into its system and that is taking exactly the wrong leaf out of canons book.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2009, 04:02:49 AM »
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Quote from: mhecker*
I've shot them all at ISO 100, in RAW mode on a tripod with mirror lockup.
I convert the Nikon RAW's in ViewNX and the Canon RAW's in Lightroom 2.2.

If the intend is to extract the best possible detail from your D3x files, then you might want to try using Raw Developper 1.8.2, using DoG sharpening method with 0.10, 0.27 and 350 settings.

Cheers,
Bernard
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dwdallam
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« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2009, 05:08:04 AM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Well, I feel that people tend to look at gaps differently depending on what they are looking at... on the one hand all DSLRs are supposed to be the same, but on the other hand a 22MP MFDB is supposed to be way better.

My view is that there is probably less gap between a 22MP MFDB and D3x, than there is between a D3x and a 1ds3.

Cheers,
Bernard


Like you said above, the end result is in camera processing and the post processing. I assume the two sensors are not at all too different, except that Nikon doesn't make the D3X chip, Sony does. It's an A900 chip with Nikon electronic wizardry. It's a great camera for sure, but it ain't all Nikon, and that's for sure too. Sony even assembled the chip it. It's a Nisony. That's not bad, but that means Nikon is limited to what Sony can and is willing to do in the future with their FF Sensors.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 05:08:41 AM by dwdallam » Logged

SeanBK
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« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2009, 07:00:56 AM »
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Quote from: dwdallam
.............................Nikon is limited to what Sony can and is willing to do in the future with their FF Sensors.
That would be based on assumption that Nikon can acquire their sensors ONLY from Sony. They can outsource the sensors from any of many sensor manufacturers. I am sure Kodak & Dalsa will work with them as lots of people are predicting demise of M.F backs, while Canon can only do in house sensor manufacturing process. There is something called "Peter Principle" that WILL come into play. Look at the fast turnaround by Hasselblad from film to digital since they out sourced & outsourcing IS today's norm, isn't it?
    Personally I believe Canon has reached the plateau of their R&D capabilities of ever expanding capabilites of sensor manufacturing, so I pressume (see Peter Principle). Also see the increase in profit of Nikon in 2008 & their next month's increase in prices in Australia & UK. I am glad you bought 1DsMk..., very good camera, but so is D3X. I almost bought one yesterday for lot less than list at a local store & they had one in stock.  
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 07:03:46 AM by SeanBK » Logged
Slough
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« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2009, 07:14:00 AM »
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Quote from: dwdallam
I assume the two sensors are not at all too different, except that Nikon doesn't make the D3X chip, Sony does.

Outourcing chip fabrication is normal. In fact having two source protects you against e.g. a fire in one fab.

Quote from: dwdallam
It's an A900 chip with Nikon electronic wizardry.

Pure speculation on your part. We know that Sony had SOME input in the design. That's all we know.


Quote from: dwdallam
It's a great camera for sure, but it ain't all Nikon, and that's for sure too.

You think Canon design and manufacture everything in their camera? They don't.

Quote from: dwdallam
Sony even assembled the chip it. It's a Nisony.

See earlier.

Quote from: dwdallam
That's not bad, but that means Nikon is limited to what Sony can and is willing to do in the future with their FF Sensors.

Pure speculation on your part.

What makes you think that Nikon haven't had key input to the design of the chip? After all, the D3 chip is 'pure' Nikon. People assume that Sony have Nikon by the nadgers. But it could be more of a symbiosis, Nikon chip design expertise, Sony fabrication and electronics expertise. Pure speculation on my part. But just as (un)likely as yours.

That's the problem with the inter-porn-net-web. It's full of people making statements with 100% certainty but which cannot be substantiated. Remember the Nikon MX camera that was a dead cert? Even the PC-E lenses were used as evidence by the experts.  
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Slough
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« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2009, 07:17:56 AM »
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Quote from: pom
If there is practically no difference between the 1Ds mkIII and the D3X then that in essence means that Nikon have released 1.5 year old technology for the price that the technology was when it was brand new. Saying that the 1Ds mkIII cost the same when it was new is ignoring the fact that in 2009 a 20+ megapixel pro DSLR is worth $6500 not $8000. It was worth $8000 - one and a half years ago when Nikon were still sleeping. That amount of time is a huge gap in terms of technology, imagine if computer hardware manufacturers were to bring out 1.5 year old technology at cutting edge prices, they'd be laughed out of the market. The only reason Nikon have been able to do this is due to it's customer base locked into its system and that is taking exactly the wrong leaf out of canons book.

A product is worth what people will pay. And for a pro-grade camera that is largely dependent on the income stream that it can generate. The new VR telephotos were high priced for months, and have recently come down to 'sensible' levels. I thought the D300 was overpriced for ages. But it sold. And made lots of readies for Nikon.
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jjj
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« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2009, 07:38:58 AM »
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Quote from: jjj
Shows the RRP was somewhat optimistic.
I imagine the price will also drop quickly here once they become properly available.
If any are sold at all in the current economic cimate!  
It just been announced that the prices of Canikons may go up by 20% in the UK due to currency differences!  
20% more!! As if it wasn't the most expensivce place to buy stuff anyway. Funny how stuff never goes down when currency moves the other way.
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arashm
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« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2009, 10:58:25 AM »
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[quote name='BernardLanguillier' date='Jan 6 2009, 05:02 AM' post='249912']
If the intend is to extract the best possible detail from your D3x files, then you might want to try using Raw Developper 1.8.2, using DoG sharpening method with 0.10, 0.27 and 350 settings.



Bernard, what is the DoG sharpening, I'm demoing the software right now and using the Hybrid method!
thank you in advance!
am
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francois
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« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2009, 11:05:45 AM »
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Quote from: arashm
…Bernard, what is the DoG sharpening, I'm demoing the software right now and using the Hybrid method!
thank you in advance!
am
It's one of the methods of sharpening offered by RAW Developer. Go to the SharpNR tab panel and there's is a menu "Method".

Edit: From RAW Developer Help:The DoG sharpening option uses the Difference of Gaussians algorithm and provides controls for Noise Reduction Radius, Sharpening Radius and Amount. Difference of Gaussians can be effective in increasing edge sharpness with noisy images without significantly enhancing the overall noise level. This technique is somewhat similar to that used by the Hybrid Sharpen option, but offers a little more flexibility in adjustments. When Noise Reduction Radius is set to the minimum value DoG will give results nearly identical to Unsharp Mask. Increasing the Noise Reduction Radius will reduce the effect of noise on the sharpened image. The Sharpening Radius value should always be larger than the Noise Reduction Radius. With a Sharpening Radius roughly equal to 1.7x the Noise Reduction Radius Difference of Gaussians will approximate a Laplacian of Gaussian filter (another edge enhancing technique).
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 11:10:16 AM by francois » Logged

Francois
arashm
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« Reply #49 on: January 06, 2009, 11:09:42 AM »
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Quote from: francois
It's one of the methods of sharpening offered by RAW Developer. Go to the SharpNR tab panel and there's is a menu "Method".


Francois: thanks
I've seen it, I was more interested on why it maybe superior to the other methods and what "DoG" stands for....
am
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francois
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« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2009, 11:11:16 AM »
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Quote from: arashm
Francois: thanks
I've seen it, I was more interested on why it maybe superior to the other methods and what "DoG" stands for....
am
I edited my previous post to include the description.
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Francois
arashm
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« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2009, 11:16:28 AM »
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Thanks again
 

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douglasf13
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« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2009, 11:26:51 AM »
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Slough, Nikon came right out an said it was a Sony chip, and nearly all evidence points to it being the A900 sensor with different CFA and AA filter. These differences alone would make an impact, and adding Nikon's processing path adds even more.  Regardless, like was mentioned earlier, Nikon has the freedom to use whomever they wish for their sensors, and currently using Sony is no big deal.
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Slough
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« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2009, 12:08:44 PM »
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Quote from: douglasf13
Slough, Nikon came right out an said it was a Sony chip, and nearly all evidence points to it being the A900 sensor with different CFA and AA filter. These differences alone would make an impact, and adding Nikon's processing path adds even more.  Regardless, like was mentioned earlier, Nikon has the freedom to use whomever they wish for their sensors, and currently using Sony is no big deal.

No, they haven't. They have said it is unique to the D3x. And they have indicated involvement with Sony. And they have said that it is fabricated by Sony. Anything more is supposition.

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Leping
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« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2009, 03:27:31 PM »
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Hi dwdallam,

Sorry I just had the moment to check and read your comments.

Of course I am not taking things personal, and we are all friends in this forum to try to communicate what we thought we know and what we want to learn and exchange, and friends from different background and experiences always have different opinions so that the forums are not monotonic.

As you see I only try to raise the attention to what the D3x users, the pioneers, were initially reporting, since some of the most interesting reports were not posted to this forum or unknown to many who might be interested.

Thank you for your kind words and let's be friends.

Best regards,
Leping

Quote from: dwdallam
I just want to say that my original post was not personal to you Leping.

Your initial post It struck me as spam, again, for the reasons covered well enough by the posters.

Let's be friends!  
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lisa_r
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« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2009, 05:57:49 PM »
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Quote from: michael
The real differences come down to size, handling, lenses choices, features, support, cost etc. That's where the differences lie.
Michael

Thanks for keeping it real Mr. LL. On that note, how do the large (2x3') prints from these cameras compare to those you have made from film?
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2009, 06:18:14 PM »
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Quote from: arashm
Bernard, what is the DoG sharpening, I'm demoing the software right now and using the Hybrid method!
thank you in advance!
am

RD offers 4 possible sharpening methods, among which DoG works best for me.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Plekto
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« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2009, 07:10:11 PM »
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Quote from: SeanBK
That would be based on assumption that Nikon can acquire their sensors ONLY from Sony. They can outsource the sensors from any of many sensor manufacturers. I am sure Kodak & Dalsa will work with them as lots of people are predicting demise of M.F backs

My money is on Fuji and Sigma(doubly so since they recently bought Foveon outright).  MF DBs are going to have a rude awakening in another year or two.  Of course, this is always a good thing.  Competition always creates more toys for us consumers

Edit - and about the price, yes, the real pros who do studio and industry usually just get a DB and shoot that if they have tons of money.  The semi-pros are more price conscious, as well as the guys doing work for magazines and newspapers and the like all aren't going to spend $8000.  Or more likely, their bosses won't cough up the cash when they see the Canon 5DII with nearly the same specs on paper/in the advertisement for less than half the price. 21MP for $2500 versus 25MP for $8000... try to get that past the boss...

I guess the only exception would be the guy with tons of money in lenses who feels that he has to stay with Nikon.  $5500 buys a lot of lenses, and that's not counting what the Nikon lenses would sell for used...  In fact, you might actually make a profit by upgrading to the Canon and selling the Nikon gear.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 07:18:35 PM by Plekto » Logged
NikosR
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« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2009, 12:06:18 AM »
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Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

I would say that around 3000 USD would be OK for the D700x.


The D700x, if introduced this year, will most probably carry an  introductory price in the range of $3500-$4000. In any case, its introductory price will be higher than the 5DII or A900 introductory prices. I also predict that people will be furious then because, at the time, both the Canon and the Sony will have street prices significantly less than their manufacturer recommended prices. Thus, the apparent gap between the price of the D700x and those cameras will be viewed as large.

People should realize that most of the reductions in street price for cameras in the early months of their availability tend to come out of dealers pockets rather than the manufacturers.
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Nikos
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« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2009, 02:30:18 AM »
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Quote from: NikosR
The D700x, if introduced this year, will most probably carry an  introductory price in the range of $3500-$4000. In any case, its introductory price will be higher than the 5DII or A900 introductory prices. I also predict that people will be furious then because, at the time, both the Canon and the Sony will have street prices significantly less than their manufacturer recommended prices. Thus, the apparent gap between the price of the D700x and those cameras will be viewed as large.

Then Nikon should hurry up and introduce it.

Quote
People should realize that most of the reductions in street price for cameras in the early months of their availability tend to come out of dealers pockets rather than the manufacturers.

Not just in the early months.
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