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Author Topic: Worked on 4 canvas wraps today and 3 cracked the ink at the fold.  (Read 10915 times)
Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2009, 07:52:46 AM »
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Quote from: Dan Berg
Yes that is the one I purchased.  60" model.
Dan Berg


They are great people to work with and are willing to make modification if you need it.

Doyle

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Mulis Pictus
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« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2009, 01:38:05 PM »
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Quote from: Dan Berg
Thank you I will give it a try. Please let me know if you would like compensated.
No need for compensation. I would be just glad to hear how it worked for you.
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2009, 05:05:55 PM »
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Quote from: Mulis Pictus
No need for compensation. I would be just glad to hear how it worked for you.

Thank you
I will give it a try and report back.
Dan Berg
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Colorwave
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« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2009, 12:21:33 AM »
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Quote from: bill t.
Also helps if your bars have somewhat rounded corners so the canvas doesn't hang up on a sharp edge concentrating the stress at that point.

Like these.  These are excellent stretcher bars, but you have to cut them to length yourself and they don't come milled with the standard tricked out adjustable stretcher bar corners.

http://linenliners.com/products/stretchers/
Bill-
How do you deal with the corners when you cut yours to length?  Do you just cut sumple mitres, and glue and staple or nail them together with no lock mitre?  How large a stretcher frames have you done with this material and style?
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2009, 05:35:35 AM »
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Quote from: Colorwave
Bill-
How do you deal with the corners when you cut yours to length?  Do you just cut sumple mitres, and glue and staple or nail them together with no lock mitre?  How large a stretcher frames have you done with this material and style?

Ron
Since I own a cabinetry business I have all the equipment to make it a little easier. No lock miters. I buy the lengths mitre to my size put in a miter squaring jig we have for doors . Glue and staple the corners. I plan to buy a under pinner when the time is right. The largest I have done is 20 X 32 (24 X 36  canvas.
Dan Berg
www.bergscustomfurniture.com
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 05:57:47 AM by Dan Berg » Logged

Dan Berg
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« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2009, 05:48:44 AM »
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Update from Breathing Color
Quote from them " Breathing Color was designed for Brilliance Chromata and Economize 800m canvas. We have not done any tests with Epson Canvases".

SAY WHAT?
They market this stuff like crazy and then tell you for the first time when you have an issue that it is only for there canvas. Epson is probably # 2 or 3 in market share if not #1. The thing that bothers me about the reply is they just tried to fluff off the use of Epson Canvas. To date I do not even know if the Glamor II was the problem but if they were going to give me an answer that might have helped they sure gave the wrong one.
Dan Berg
www.bergscustomfurniture.com
Bergs Canvas Gallery
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 05:50:15 AM by Dan Berg » Logged

Paul2660
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« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2009, 07:53:58 AM »
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Welcome to the wonderful world of Breathing Color and their "customer support"

They are not very helpful when things go wrong.

Note, I have had a batch of their Canvas that did this also. cracked along the edges when stretching.  This was a
17" roll of BCW one of their trial rolls.  I assumed it was a old roll and the canvas had gotten brittle.   My main issues with
them have been on their glossy canvas (batch 1469).

 
I would also consider the Clearstar brand, Type C for Canvas, glossy, semi Gloss or matte finish.  Cost is about
the same.   Glamour  II does seem develop a harder finish over time.  I have found it's best to stretch a canvas
sprayed with Glamour II as soon as possible.

Paul Caldwell
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 08:00:47 AM by Paul2660 » Logged

Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
Photography > http://photosofarkansas.com
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Andrew Stagg
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« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2009, 02:41:38 AM »
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Quote from: Dan Berg
Printed 6 canvas prints 2 weeks ago on my Epson 7900. All prints dried at least 24 hours and then were coated with 2 coats of Glamor II. Canvas was Epsons Premium Canvas Matt and Premium Canvas Satin.
Per Gallery Stretcher's instructions I folded  approximately 2 inches from the edge and made a crease with my hand. This is to help with alignment when doing the first course of staples. Both edges that I creased with my hand showed a crack right through the ink. This was not even put in the stretcher machine up to this point. Almost all the edges that cracked were black so the white canvas really stuck out. I did 2 more and they only cracked slightly but it was still there. The last one I gallery wrapped had NO Glamor II and guess what no cracks. These were all test pieces for my house but I need to figure this out pretty quick. All would have been un-sellable. Any ideas?
Dan Berg

Dan,

From experience, with Glamour II, use at least three coats. When you get to the last coat, it is important to stretch before the Glamour loses all of it's flexibility - I usually stretch within the hour of applying the last coat.

Canvas choice is important, as has been said before here breathing color chromata is a great canvas and resists cracking more often than many of the others.

One of the other things with stretching, is that most people stretch too tightly. When initially stretching the canvas, it should be taught but with a little give. The corner pegs that you knock in to the canvas after stretching will give you the 'drum' tight finish. This method also helps to avoid cracking.

Whilst most canvases have UV inhibitors and will resist fading with no problems, an un-coated canvas has a number of disadvantages. In my experience, they do crack more easily. They mark very easily - you have to handle them with real care - and in my experience, the average client will not be as careful as you! Also they suffer from humidity and moisture changes. With three coats of GII, the canvas that you stretch is pretty much waterproof!

I hope that this is of some help.

Best

Andrew Stagg
www.bristolcanvas.com
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2009, 05:03:04 AM »
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Quote from: Andrew Stagg
Dan,

From experience, with Glamour II, use at least three coats. When you get to the last coat, it is important to stretch before the Glamour loses all of it's flexibility - I usually stretch within the hour of applying the last coat.

Canvas choice is important, as has been said before here breathing color chromata is a great canvas and resists cracking more often than many of the others.

One of the other things with stretching, is that most people stretch too tightly. When initially stretching the canvas, it should be taught but with a little give. The corner pegs that you knock in to the canvas after stretching will give you the 'drum' tight finish. This method also helps to avoid cracking.

Whilst most canvases have UV inhibitors and will resist fading with no problems, an un-coated canvas has a number of disadvantages. In my experience, they do crack more easily. They mark very easily - you have to handle them with real care - and in my experience, the average client will not be as careful as you! Also they suffer from humidity and moisture changes. With three coats of GII, the canvas that you stretch is pretty much waterproof!

I hope that this is of some help.

Best

Andrew Stagg
www.bristolcanvas.com

Andrew,
Thank you for your thoughts and ideas. I have 2 issues I am still trying to work through. I have been working on sample canvas wraps now for about 3 weeks still trying to find a half dozen fixed sizes so we can put those sizes on our website. My problem is with every picture I process I get a slightly different size image. I have tried everything to no avail. Say I want a 20 X 30 inch canvas wrap and lose 2" the entire way around I then print on 24" X 34" so that I have a 20 X 30" finished product. It should mean I could order a 100 20 X 30" frames . But I get 19 3/4 X 29 1/2. The next time it will something different and so on. I am using Lightroom then to the new Genuine Fractals 6 and Photoshop CS4. It seems the problem is with different picture file sizes. No matter how carefully I check my borders and everything else involved I am not getting the same size. Would their be someway to set presets for this. Now you can see how I cannot buy preassembled frames when I am getting 10 different sizes of prints. Thanks for your help.
Dan Berg
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 05:04:46 AM by Dan Berg » Logged

Andrew Stagg
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« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2009, 05:26:26 AM »
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Quote from: Dan Berg
Andrew,
Thank you for your thoughts and ideas. I have 2 issues I am still trying to work through. I have been working on sample canvas wraps now for about 3 weeks still trying to find a half dozen fixed sizes so we can put those sizes on our website. My problem is with every picture I process I get a slightly different size image. I have tried everything to no avail. Say I want a 20 X 30 inch canvas wrap and lose 2" the entire way around I then print on 24" X 34" so that I have a 20 X 30" finished product. It should mean I could order a 100 20 X 30" frames . But I get 19 3/4 X 29 1/2. The next time it will something different and so on. I am using Lightroom then to the new Genuine Fractals 6 and Photoshop CS4. It seems the problem is with different picture file sizes. No matter how carefully I check my borders and everything else involved I am not getting the same size. Would their be someway to set presets for this. Now you can see how I cannot buy preassembled frames when I am getting 10 different sizes of prints. Thanks for your help.
Dan Berg

Dan,

That is where I use Qimage. Printing with CS4 can be a nightmare. With Qimage, I get to fix the size, the software automatically crops/resizes and sharpens and the image size is 100% consistent. The interface is quirky - and it took me a week of testing to get it right, but for the $90 for the studio edition, with my business it probably paid for itself in two or three days. It also has good colour management and will process raw files with a number of camera profiles available, together with printer profiles and amongst the best support in the business. There is a free download that you can try out for 30 days.
Qimage

Just for your info, where possible, I add 2.5" all round on the image when printing (if the image allows) - it gives me a little more flexibility on the positioning of the canvas over the frame - so our 18" x 12" prints at 23"x17" if possible.

I hope this helps.

Best

Andrew Stagg
www.bristolcanvas.com
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Paul2660
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« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2009, 08:28:09 AM »
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My experience, with the Epson 9880 and Epson drivers, you will most likely miss the running length unless you make a modification, but you should hit the width 100% or very close.
Also each canvas type/brand will feed slightly different in my experience.

The 9600,9800 and 9880 all have this issue.  You can do many things to help.

1.  Add length to the part of the print that will be running lenght.  Example, on a 20 x 30, the 20" is my running length.  I will add between 1/8 to 1/16 of an inch to the running length depending on the
canvas I am using.  There is no exact science unfortunately

2.  Adjust the paper feed in the Epson Driver, not sure where or how you would do this as you mentioned you are printing from lightroom, If it uses the same dialog boxes CS3 does then you can
manually change this. Epson recommends as much as +50 for their canvas.  

However unless you are mirroring your edge, you should still be OK if the print doesn't come out exact.  All you need is the 20 x 30 and you can line that up as you like.  With a mirror, then it's
harder as you have to hit the edge of the mirror on all sides or the mirror shows when viewed.  Not sure how you are finishing the print out for the extra 2" all around.

Paul Caldwell
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Paul Caldwell
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2009, 10:11:17 AM »
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Quote from: Paul2660
My experience, with the Epson 9880 and Epson drivers, you will most likely miss the running length unless you make a modification, but you should hit the width 100% or very close.
Also each canvas type/brand will feed slightly different in my experience.

The 9600,9800 and 9880 all have this issue.  You can do many things to help.

1.  Add length to the part of the print that will be running lenght.  Example, on a 20 x 30, the 20" is my running length.  I will add between 1/8 to 1/16 of an inch to the running length depending on the
canvas I am using.  There is no exact science unfortunately


I am using Genuine Fractals 6 which has a new gallery wrap feature. You just fill in the blank for how much you want to add to the edge based on your stretcher thickness and that is all their is to it. You then get a print with your wrap around all ready reflected. But its allmost impossible to get them to come out the same size all the time.
Dan Berg
2.  Adjust the paper feed in the Epson Driver, not sure where or how you would do this as you mentioned you are printing from lightroom, If it uses the same dialog boxes CS3 does then you can
manually change this. Epson recommends as much as +50 for their canvas.  

However unless you are mirroring your edge, you should still be OK if the print doesn't come out exact.  All you need is the 20 x 30 and you can line that up as you like.  With a mirror, then it's
harder as you have to hit the edge of the mirror on all sides or the mirror shows when viewed.  Not sure how you are finishing the print out for the extra 2" all around.

Paul Caldwell
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Craig Murphy
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« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2009, 12:45:17 PM »
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At Dan Doyle,
      You are vacuum press heat laminating and then stretching your canvases?  What film are you using?    Thanks!

Craig Murphy
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 12:45:42 PM by Craig Murphy » Logged

CMurph
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« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2009, 01:19:04 PM »
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Quote from: Dan Berg
Andrew,
Thank you for your thoughts and ideas. I have 2 issues I am still trying to work through. I have been working on sample canvas wraps now for about 3 weeks still trying to find a half dozen fixed sizes so we can put those sizes on our website. My problem is with every picture I process I get a slightly different size image. I have tried everything to no avail. Say I want a 20 X 30 inch canvas wrap and lose 2" the entire way around I then print on 24" X 34" so that I have a 20 X 30" finished product. It should mean I could order a 100 20 X 30" frames . But I get 19 3/4 X 29 1/2. The next time it will something different and so on. I am using Lightroom then to the new Genuine Fractals 6 and Photoshop CS4. It seems the problem is with different picture file sizes. No matter how carefully I check my borders and everything else involved I am not getting the same size. Would their be someway to set presets for this. Now you can see how I cannot buy preassembled frames when I am getting 10 different sizes of prints. Thanks for your help.
Dan Berg

I found a small error is different sizes when I was making three prints the same size. One was slightly different when I measured it later. It turned out the different sized print had a different ppi setting to the other 2 ie something like 298.3333 dpi instead of 300.  Once I changed this everything was more consistent. Sounds weird but it worked for me. I should mention I was using Qimage to do printing, but image resizing was done in photoshop.

Neal
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 01:21:07 PM by namartinnz » Logged

Doyle Yoder
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« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2009, 05:08:29 PM »
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Quote from: Craig Murphy
At Dan Doyle,
      You are vacuum press heat laminating and then stretching your canvases?  What film are you using?    Thanks!

Craig Murphy

No, laminating with heated roll laminator. Mostly Seal Print Guard. I have used Drytac Mediashield. Not really any difference.

Most of the time I print full rolls and then laminate roll to roll.

Doyle
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Craig Murphy
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« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2009, 02:36:45 PM »
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Thanks Dan.   At the print size issue.  Qimage is a little strange.  If you have it set to 'do not overide native ppi' it seems to not overide sometimes but then it does at other times changing the size of the print.  If your not paying attention you wind up with a print not quite right.
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CMurph
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« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2009, 05:54:15 PM »
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I'll through in my two cents and ask a question since this looks like the right group is assembled......

The only way we've been able to substantially eliminate the cracking with BC chromata white is when we were having it laminated, similar to Doyle.   Perfect edges almost every time.   Very tough and no flaking or chips at the corners.  Bang an edge -- no problem!   Unfortunately we were farming out the laminating and the company wrecked two large orders in a row -- didn't even stop when they could SEE that they were getting wrinkles, just kept wrecking print after print.   Idiots.   After some debate we decided not to get our own laminator, so we moved on.

Now we have the canvas sprayed with the Glamour II and live with some cracking and very fragile edges.    There does seem to be quite a bit of variation in ether the coating or the canvas as some lots won't crack much and others crack all the way around.   BC says we need to spray it on thicker which is all well and fine until it starts running.    Large pieces can't be sprayed horizontal because the canvas doesn't lay flat and it puddles.   No one in our crew likes the thick rolled look and it takes too much time and space for the volume we do and anyway with the pictures I have done myself (with a roller) the coating is very heavy and still cracks.    The only other canvas we've used much of has been the Epson matte pro (or whatever it's called now) but that was in the lamination days and we had to give it up because of supply issues.   The cracking has never really been resolved for us but is kind of out of my hands.

2nd the recommendation for QImage.  I've used it for years and even with the goofy UI it's worlds easier than PS.

My question:
Has anyone had recent problems with the BC canvas slacking off after stretching?   In the last month or so we've had to re-stretch an alarming number of pieces that have slakened off visibly a week or two after stretching.   Everything was fine before and nothing has changed with the procedure.    Has anyone had similar problems?  

Thanks
Doug
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 07:03:47 PM by DougMorgan » Logged
Dward
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« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2009, 10:20:07 PM »
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I haven't had the slacking problem with BC canvas, but I have a possible solution to slack canvas that SOMETIMES works.  Instead of re-stretching, try misting the back of the canvas with water from a spray bottle--not soaking it, of course, but quite damp.  Often the canvas will shrink as it dries, pulling tight.   This is also sometimes an effective way to remove dents in canvasses where they have been accidentally poked.  

One additional comment about Glamour II.  Unlike ClearShield Type C, which sprays fine from a siphon HVLP, Glamour II requires a gravity feed HVLP gun (as noted on the BC website).  Even at the recommended dilution or above, Glamour II just doesn't work well with the siphon type gun (such as the inexpensive Wagner units).  With the recommended dilution for spraying and the correct kind of gun however, I've had no problems at all with cracking, stretching problems, etc.

All this being said, I have a slight preference for ClearShield Type C.  It's simply easier to use (easier to spray, able to be used with inexpensive siphon feed HVLP guns, requires no dilution, and seems to remain more flexible for somewhat longer than the Glamour II).  

David V. Ward, Ph. D.
www.dvward.com
David V. Ward Fine Art Photography




My question:
Has anyone had recent problems with the BC canvas slacking off after stretching?   In the last month or so we've had to re-stretch an alarming number of pieces that have slakened off visibly a week or two after stretching.   Everything was fine before and nothing has changed with the procedure.    Has anyone had similar problems?  

Thanks
Doug
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« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 10:20:52 PM by Dward » Logged
DougMorgan
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« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2009, 11:53:10 PM »
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Thanks David.
The slacking is too severe for the water trick, even with a little heat gun assist.   I've gotten a little more information since posting the above and it might not be a canvas problem but I wanted to make sure no one else was having this problem.

Do you have some details on your method of spraying?   Though I'm not doing the spraying myself I don't see any details other than the generic rolling instructions on the BC site and I'm not sure if my partner that does the coatings has seen it either.   If you could give me a link and what thinning ratio, gun model etc that would be very much appreciated.

Note though that I've noticed the cracking even with multiple heavy roller applied coats as well and there does seem to be some variation in the cracking resistance.   Some rolls seem to be able to go around a 90 degree corner without cracking even uncoated, others not.   BC insisted it won't crack but we've sent them samples.   Doubt it would be an issue but we are using matte:gloss of about 4:1.

For the size and number of pieces the only practical method is to staple them up and spray vertically -- are you spraying them in this manner or are they small enough to lay out horizontal.   In my attempts to spray large pieces laid out flat there were serious puddle problems.

Thanks for the help....
Doug
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 10:46:42 AM by DougMorgan » Logged
Paul2660
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« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2009, 08:02:19 AM »
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From my own experience, I have been using Glamour II for almost 2 years on several brands of canvas, including BCW.  I have always sprayed it with a Wagner HVLP, works fine.
I dilute it 60/40, water/glamour II.  It goes on very well and evenly.

IMO it sprays the same as Clearstar type C.  Clear Star Type C out of the can is thinner.    Based on appearances and smell, both Glamour II and Clearstar are made from similar stuff.  

I have had only one batch of BCW crack, it was a 17" demo roll and I figured that that it was from an older batch.  It got very  brittle, and I had to reprint the images.  

So far, I have not had any BCW slacken, all the rolls were purchased in the August/Sept 2008 timeframe.  I have not purchased anything from them recently.

Paul Caldwell


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Paul Caldwell
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Photography > http://photosofarkansas.com
Blog> http://paulcaldwellphotography.com
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