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Author Topic: LCD2690WUXi ~ versus ~ LCD2690WUXi2  (Read 16499 times)
shewhorn
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« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2009, 11:10:22 AM »
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Just did a test... I can confirm that the "sRGB Emulation" target does indeed clamp down on out of gamut colors (I guess it wouldn't otherwise be sRGB Emulation). Simply select a previous target in the SpectraView software and you are in a calibrated state, no need to recalibrate.

Cheers, Joe
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jerryrock
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« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2009, 01:58:06 PM »
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Quote from: shewhorn
Can you elaborate on this more? While the NECs can only store one Monitor LUT at a time you can, via Spectraview simply select a different target and it will automatically upload a new monitor LUT to the screen. I'm not sure how the end result is any different than what the HP is doing (aside from the fact that the NEC is storing different calibrations on your computer and not in the monitor).

Now, one thing I'm not sure of is if the NEC clamps down on the gamut for those lower gamut color spaces. The SpectraView software does ship with an sRGB target but I'm not sure if that merely means it's setup for D65, Gamma 2.2 or if it prevents the display from rendering colors out of the sRGB gamut to render... I'm curious now though and it's easy enough to test.

How do the HP do at rendering lower gamut color spaces? I bought the 2690 with the intent of using it in Adobe RGB. I've heard a few comments that the sRGB emulation isn't all that great.

Cheers, Joe

There is a difference between calibration and profiling. Calibration changes the physical characteristics of the monitor's LUT while the profile created by the software dictates video card output. The HP DreamColor actually stores seven distinct calibrations, not profiles.

I wasn't familiar with the 2690 so I looked at the product manual which verified my conclusion that the monitor has one calibration setting under "programmable".

From the manual:
Quote
The other settings The sRGB and NATIVE, color presets are standard and cannot be changed.
The PROGRAMMABLE setting can only be adjusted using color calibration software such as NEC’s GammaComp or Spectraview II.

From this I concluded that the calibration for the Nec 2690 is only accurate for the color space profiled during the calibration process.


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Gerald J Skrocki
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shewhorn
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« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2009, 03:40:15 PM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
There is a difference between calibration and profiling.

I'm aware of the differences. From a technical standpoint the only LCD displays that can be calibrated (although it's still not a full calibration because the changes to color temp are global from white to black) are ones that have red, green, and blue LED backlights. Everything else is just a form of profiling because you can't actually change the white point of the backlight itself. Your Dream Color of course is capable of this as it actually has RGB LED backlights. To expand upon that, (being technically nitpicky here) just because you have a high resolution monitor LUT doesn't mean that you are actually calibrating a screen. The file loaded to the monitor LUT is the result of a profile (by loading it into a high resolution monitor LUT the end result is much less destructive than if the same corrections were loaded into the VIDEO lut).

Quote
Calibration changes the physical characteristics of the monitor's LUT while the profile created by the software dictates video card output. The HP DreamColor actually stores seven distinct calibrations, not profiles.

I'm aware of this as well however I've always heard the file uploaded to the Monitor's LUT referred to as the Monitor profile (which is accurate, it's a profile of the monitor's characteristics and the corrections for out of spec results) and the file uploaded to the video LUT. Even though the word "profile" is used in reference to the file that gets loaded into the Monitor LUT, I've always known the difference between profiling and calibrating.

Quote
I wasn't familiar with the 2690 so I looked at the product manual which verified my conclusion that the monitor has one calibration setting under "programmable".

From the manual:

"The other settings The sRGB and NATIVE, color presets are standard and cannot be changed.
The PROGRAMMABLE setting can only be adjusted using color calibration software such as NEC’s GammaComp or Spectraview II."

From this I concluded that the calibration for the Nec 2690 is only accurate for the color space profiled during the calibration process.

Breaking it down, the 2690 has only 1 monitor LUT (I suspect the Dream Color has only 1 Monitor LUT as well... wouldn't really make a difference if it had multiple LUTs because only one can be applied at any one given time).

If you manually "calibrate" the 2690 (more on the technical semantics of that later) then you can store your RGB values into setting 1, 2, 3, or 5 for instant recall to change your white balance. This however isn't a complete job as it does not encompass other settings like luminance, gamma curves, and settings unique to the NEC such as luminance uniformity. It would be nice if NEC had user presets for that BUT, if you have SpectraView it's pretty much a moot point because you have unlimited presets there and they store EVERYTHING about the monitor's configuration. Luminance, black level, color temperature, gamma curve, luminance uniformity, luminance tracking, and color temperature. Enter your settings and when you hit "Calibrate" it asks you to name your file and it's forever available for instant recall (well, it takes a few seconds to send it from your hard drive to the Monitor's LUT and to update the other settings as well but for all intents and purposes it's the same as having presets directly on the monitor).

Now, NECs are often referred to as screens that you can actually calibrate and technically this isn't really true. I touched on this before... because the CCFL puts out a specific color temperature you're pretty much stuck with that. The only way to modify that color temperature is by turning on pixels and subtractively filtering out light. This of course is not ideal on monitors that don't have high resolution monitor LUTs because the end result will degrade the resolution of the limited 8 bits that we have to work with. NEC gets around this by having a 12 bit monitor LUT and high resolution panel where by it has 16 times the resolution available to it to make such changes. By making these changes well above the resolution of the video card the NEC can take the 8 bits and remap those values to the higher resolution monitor LUT. The end result is that we don't have to sacrifice resolution coming out of the video card in order to achieve a different white balance or lower luminance or what have you, the lookup table in the video LUT remains 1:1.

So, not exactly the same as fully calibrating (you can only really calibrate the backlight on the NEC, that's it, the rest is technically profiling) but much better than the results you get with a monitor that has only an 8 bit LUT (in which case it makes no difference if you put the results in the video LUT or the monitor LUT).

Now... if we REALLY REALLY REALLY nitpick the Dream Color can't be fully calibrated either because the response curve of the individual pixels can not be changed. While you can calibrate the color temp of the backlight that is a global change across the entire gradient from black to white. If there are any color shifts on the way from white to black, those shifts must be corrected with a profile (which would be stored in the Monitor LUT). Once OLED technology gets reasonable we will see monitors that you can genuinely calibrate because the pixels themselves emit light and you can calibrate the response curve from black to white (and the black levels will be phenomenal as you can actually turn the individual pixels off completely).

Cheers, Joe
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 03:43:14 PM by shewhorn » Logged
jerryrock
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« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2009, 06:01:52 PM »
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Quote from: shewhorn
I'm aware of the differences. From a technical standpoint the only LCD displays that can be calibrated (although it's still not a full calibration because the changes to color temp are global from white to black) are ones that have red, green, and blue LED backlights. Everything else is just a form of profiling because you can't actually change the white point of the backlight itself. Your Dream Color of course is capable of this as it actually has RGB LED backlights. To expand upon that, (being technically nitpicky here) just because you have a high resolution monitor LUT doesn't mean that you are actually calibrating a screen. The file loaded to the monitor LUT is the result of a profile (by loading it into a high resolution monitor LUT the end result is much less destructive than if the same corrections were loaded into the VIDEO lut).

I'm aware of this as well however I've always heard the file uploaded to the Monitor's LUT referred to as the Monitor profile (which is accurate, it's a profile of the monitor's characteristics and the corrections for out of spec results) and the file uploaded to the video LUT. Even though the word "profile" is used in reference to the file that gets loaded into the Monitor LUT, I've always known the difference between profiling and calibrating.

Breaking it down, the 2690 has only 1 monitor LUT (I suspect the Dream Color has only 1 Monitor LUT as well... wouldn't really make a difference if it had multiple LUTs because only one can be applied at any one given time).

The DreamColor has a 12 bit pre LUT a 12 bit 3x3 Matix multiplier and a 12 bit Post LUT that outputs to a 10 bit panel.


Quote from: shewhorn
It would be nice if NEC had user presets for that BUT, if you have SpectraView it's pretty much a moot point because you have unlimited presets there and they store EVERYTHING about the monitor's configuration. Luminance, black level, color temperature, gamma curve, luminance uniformity, luminance tracking, and color temperature. Enter your settings and when you hit "Calibrate" it asks you to name your file and it's forever available for instant recall (well, it takes a few seconds to send it from your hard drive to the Monitor's LUT and to update the other settings as well but for all intents and purposes it's the same as having presets directly on the monitor).

Again, the NEC system does not store information for individually calibrated color gamuts. It calibrates for wide gamut and uses sRGB emulation mode switchable in the OSD.

[!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=shewhorn)--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE (shewhorn)[div class=\'quotemain\'][!--quotec--]Now, NECs are often referred to as screens that you can actually calibrate and technically this isn't really true. I touched on this before... because the CCFL puts out a specific color temperature you're pretty much stuck with that. The only way to modify that color temperature is by turning on pixels and subtractively filtering out light. This of course is not ideal on monitors that don't have high resolution monitor LUTs because the end result will degrade the resolution of the limited 8 bits that we have to work with. NEC gets around this by having a 12 bit monitor LUT and high resolution panel where by it has 16 times the resolution available to it to make such changes. By making these changes well above the resolution of the video card the NEC can take the 8 bits and remap those values to the higher resolution monitor LUT. The end result is that we don't have to sacrifice resolution coming out of the video card in order to achieve a different white balance or lower luminance or what have you, the lookup table in the video LUT remains 1:1.

So, not exactly the same as fully calibrating (you can only really calibrate the backlight on the NEC, that's it, the rest is technically profiling) but much better than the results you get with a monitor that has only an 8 bit LUT (in which case it makes no difference if you put the results in the video LUT or the monitor LUT).

Now... if we REALLY REALLY REALLY nitpick the Dream Color can't be fully calibrated either because the response curve of the individual pixels can not be changed. While you can calibrate the color temp of the backlight that is a global change across the entire gradient from black to white. If there are any color shifts on the way from white to black, those shifts must be corrected with a profile (which would be stored in the Monitor LUT).
Cheers, Joe[/quote]

Because of the RGB LED backlighting in the DreamColor, accurate white point can be obtained for each colorspace by individually adjusting each color group of LED. There is no loss of dynamic range that must be compensated for as in CFL backlit monitors.  This is also why it can display 100% of both Adobe RGB and sRGB.

By stating the DreamColor can be calibrated, means that utilizing the HP Advanced Profiling Solution a separate calibration can be obtained for each of seven distinct color spaces;
Full Gamut (133% NTSC Color), Adobe RGB, sRGB, SMPTE-C, ITU-Rec. BT. 709, DCI-P3, and user defined.

While the NEC can store different calibration settings they are all based on the full gamut of the unit, not measured and compared to known standards of each specific color space.


 

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Gerald J Skrocki
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shewhorn
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« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2009, 11:18:04 PM »
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Quote from: jerryrock
We are not talking about applying and storing manual settings, it is about calibration data obtained from colorimeter feedback for each specific color profile stored in the monitor's LUT. The DreamColor does this, the NEC does not and instead uses sRGB emulation which is a fixed space that cannot be adjusted.

For clarity:

There is only one active Monitor LUT, even for the Dream Color. The profiles get loaded into the LUT and those are created based upon feedback from a colorimeter. This is true of both the Dream Color and the NEC. With regards to running the calibration/profile, regardless of what it is there is a set standard that defines what the result should be and if the value read back by the colorimeter is out of alignment then that value gets changed in the profile. Now, that profile may control hardware as in the case of a CRT (and we should be able to do this with OLED as well), it may remap inputs to a different output value as is the case with NEC, or it may do both as is the case with the Dream Color (set the levels of the RGB backlights, and then further correct the screen's response with regards to color and gamma by remapping different inputs to different outputs). In both cases the screens are storing corrections from data obtained by a colorimeter based on settings that are manually input.

What you can NOT do with the NEC is define a custom color space so yes, in that case you are stuck with what NEC gives you which is either sRGB or the full gamut that the screen is capable of reproducing (which kind of lines up with Adobe RGB and extends beyond Adobe RGB in the reds and the greens).


Quote
Again, the NEC system does not store information for individually calibrated color gamuts. It calibrates for wide gamut and uses sRGB emulation mode switchable in the OSD.

I believe I understand what you're saying... it's not so much calibrated you're talking about as it is defined or defining specific gamuts. Gamuts aren't really calibrated after all, they are defined and then the monitor is calibrated to that definition or target.

Quote
Because of the RGB LED backlighting in the DreamColor, accurate white point can be obtained for each colorspace by individually adjusting each color group of LED.

This is definitely a HUGE advantage.

Quote
There is no loss of dynamic range that must be compensated for as in CFL backlit monitors.

Yes, although in an 8 bit world NEC xx90 (and some others), certain Eizo models, LaCie, etc. get around this limitation by having a monitor LUT which is of a higher resolution than the input source. So for all intents and purposes these monitors are not losing dynamic range either as all processing can be done at a higher resolution and then dithered down to 8 bits. Technically speaking the Dream Color loses dynamic range as well when the response curve is profiled to adhere to a specific gamma standard but like the CCFL monitors previously mentioned, the Dream Color's processing is of a high enough resolution that there is no net loss when we go back to 8 bits.

Quote
This is also why it can display 100% of both Adobe RGB and sRGB.

The 2690 can display 100% of sRGB and most of Adobe RGB although expressing it as a percentage is a bit misleading because the 2690's gamut goes beyond Adobe RGB in the greens and the reds.

Quote
While the NEC can store different calibration settings they are all based on the full gamut of the unit, not measured and compared to known standards of each specific color space.

While the NEC only has one known color space (sRGB) it DOES indeed calibrate it (although technically only the backlight output is calibrated and that's merely a recommendation in sRGB, the rest is profiled and stored in a 12 bit monitor LUT) against a known standard. If you do not explicitly select sRGB in the SpectraView interface, you will get a profile that utilizes the entire gamut that the screen is capable of (you can not define custom color spaces, you get sRGB or the full Monty).

Cheers, Joe
« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 11:20:47 PM by shewhorn » Logged
JohnKoerner
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« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2010, 07:19:02 PM »
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Quote from: prairiemaiden
Hi Jack!
Had the same troubles with my monitor.  1st thing are you on a mac?  There is a warning on the Nec site.  I am windows xp sp3.  First thing I did was download new Microsoft WHQL digitally signed drivers from the Nec site. My computer then recognized my monitor in display properties.
http://www.necdisplay.com/SupportCenter/DriverFinder/
Then I downloaded the spectraview II software.  Please note the warnings on this page re: mac and some video cards.  I also checked to make sure I was using current driver for Video card.
http://www.necdisplay.com/SupportCenter/Mo...s/spectraview2/
After upgrading Spectraview changed preference to autodetect......closed it and restarted and it recognized my monitor.



Well, PrairieMaiden, again I thank you for this post.

I just upgraded my computer this week ... and re-attached my monitor to the new 64-bit Windows 7 ... and it was déjà vu all over again  

I had forgotten how to load the drivers, and the software the equipment came with failed to work once more, so I had to locate this year+ old post and get re-educated ... and am now up and running once more ... so thank you once again.

Jack




.
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TimBarker
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« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2010, 06:41:50 PM »
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Quote from: shewhorn
I beg to differ and it all has to do with context...



This I agree with 100% Eizo can produce some real clunkers as does NEC...

Cheers, Joe

Clunkers, which ones? or what should be avoided?  Currently in the market for a decent screen and was looking at the Eizo CG243 or 241 and the NEC PA241W but having difficulty finding an NEC to look at (in Oz).
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Tim Barker (aka MandoTiM in other forums),
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Uses Nikon D200 or Sony Ixus110is
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6Gb RAM, 1.5Tb discs, NEC PA271, Gigabyte 9600, Canon 9000Pro,
using Win7-64, CS4 et al.
WombatHorror
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« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2010, 04:24:07 PM »
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There is a difference between calibration and profiling. Calibration changes the physical characteristics of the monitor's LUT while the profile created by the software dictates video card output. The HP DreamColor actually stores seven distinct calibrations, not profiles.

I wasn't familiar with the 2690 so I looked at the product manual which verified my conclusion that the monitor has one calibration setting under "programmable".

From the manual:
From this I concluded that the calibration for the Nec 2690 is only accurate for the color space profiled during the calibration process.




No, not even close.

The Multiprofiler lets you switch between a handful of pre-programmed modes (and at least with the PA series, but I think ^2 90's too, you can move the white point and primary locations around and tell it to use a different tone response curve, brightness and blackpoint) and one directly probe calibrated from SV II. And SVII you can just click on what you want. The monitor then loads whatever you pick into it's programmable slot. There is no need to reprogram every time you switch modes! That would be crazy.

It is true that the SV II sRGB calibration do merely profile the gamut and don't let you set it, but MultiProfiler does let you actually set the sRGB primary locations.

It is kind of weird that SV II is missing a bunch of stuff MP has as options.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 04:35:56 PM by LarryBaum » Logged
WombatHorror
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« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2010, 04:34:01 PM »
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What you can NOT do with the NEC is define a custom color space so yes, in that case you are stuck with what NEC gives you which is either sRGB or the full gamut that the screen is capable of reproducing (which kind of lines up with Adobe RGB and extends beyond Adobe RGB in the reds and the greens).



The 2690 can display 100% of sRGB and most of Adobe RGB although expressing it as a percentage is a bit misleading because the 2690's gamut goes beyond Adobe RGB in the greens and the reds.

While the NEC only has one known color space (sRGB) it DOES indeed calibrate it (although technically only the backlight output is calibrated and that's merely a recommendation in sRGB, the rest is profiled and stored in a 12 bit monitor LUT) against a known standard. If you do not explicitly select sRGB in the SpectraView interface, you will get a profile that utilizes the entire gamut that the screen is capable of (you can not define custom color spaces, you get sRGB or the full Monty).

Cheers, Joe

Just want to add that at least with Multiprofiler and the PA series (but I believe also the 90-series ^2 models if not the original 90 series) you can adjust the primary locations. For whatever reason, SV II doesn't let you move them it just allows preset to either sRGB locations as it thinks they should be based on original factory setting or full native gamut. But in Multiprofiler you can shift around the locations, you could for instance use the probe to measure a primary in SV II while shifting it around in Mutlitprofiler and then store a MP mode with primaries moved about in case you think the sRGB locations are a little off or have shifted off over time.

Two oddities are that the SV II Hidef video target mistakenly uses Native Gamut instead of sRGB!! So it's a totally useless mode to program. And SV II's sRGB mode locks in gamma 2.2 TRC curve and doesn't give you a choice while MP lets you use the actual sRGB TRC instead of Gamma 2.2 if you wish.
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WombatHorror
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« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2010, 04:36:53 PM »
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Clunkers, which ones? or what should be avoided?  Currently in the market for a decent screen and was looking at the Eizo CG243 or 241 and the NEC PA241W but having difficulty finding an NEC to look at (in Oz).

I don't know but there has been a lot of monitor talk in the color management forums so look there too. Maybe even more talk over there than in Comp&Periph.

Also check out www.prad.de (they have an English version too if you hit the little button near the top right, some of the latest reviews are still only on the German version though).

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