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Author Topic: A null profile ?  (Read 3320 times)
Rhossydd
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« on: February 01, 2009, 07:07:29 AM »
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I'd like to profile some printers that don't have a 'no colour management' option in their driver.
It seems to me that one method might be to use a 'null' profile that just passes the data through without any changes at all, installed as the printer's default profile temporarily. Such a thing might also be useful for various other types of fault diagnosis too.

Anyone know of such a profile available anywhere ? or how I can make one with PMP ?

Thanks in advance.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2009, 09:59:19 AM »
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Quote from: Rhossydd
I'd like to profile some printers that don't have a 'no colour management' option in their driver.
It seems to me that one method might be to use a 'null' profile that just passes the data through without any changes at all, installed as the printer's default profile temporarily. Such a thing might also be useful for various other types of fault diagnosis too.

If the profile doesn't do anything, what's the use? You can profile a printer with no "No Color Management", as long as that setting isn't providing some auto alteration to the data (it shouldn't). I've profiled Epson's using Color Controls instead of No Color Adjustment, works fine. There is a reduction in color gamut but better linearity (which can be accounted for with reasonable results using the profile, depending on the driver).

The final profile has to account for whatever comes out the back end of that printer
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers”
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2009, 10:25:12 AM »
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Andrew, the OP should clarify this, but I think the use would be simply to be able to load that profile as a softproof viewing condition in Photoshop for making final adjustments of luminosity and colour before printing - i.e. see what the printer will do before printing.

I think the more worrisome issue for this person is that the absence of a "no Color Management" option in the printer driver means that printer colour management cannot be turned off, therefore Photoshop Manages Color MUST be turned off (or else he/she will get a mess) and he is totally reliant on the colour management "skill" of the device's firmware. Of course I would be totally uncomfortable with such a situation, and if I were budget-constrained I would look for the least-cost way of buying a printer which has a driver allowing Printer Color Management to be shut-off.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Rhossydd
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« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2009, 11:20:13 AM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
what's the use? You can profile a printer with no "No Color Management",
If you read my original post it says "some printers that don't have a 'no colour management' option in their driver".

This is sometimes found on laser and dye sub drivers in my experience.
The installation programs often still leave a default ICC profile for the OS to use, so replacing that temporarily with a 'null' profile ought to effectively apply no colour management to allow profiling targets to printed correctly.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2009, 11:36:36 AM »
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Have you tried printing the target with the printer AS IS (since you have no obvious choice in the driver), creating the profile from that target, loading it as a softproof, adjusting your image under that condition and then printing it with Photoshop Manages Color switched off?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Rhossydd
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« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2009, 12:16:27 PM »
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Quote from: MarkDS
loading it as a softproof, adjusting your image under that condition and then printing it with Photoshop Manages Color switched off?

I think you've missed the point here, Photoshop may not be available for the users of the printers, they may be using other applications.

I'm just trying to find a work round for printers that don't have a NCA option.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2009, 12:26:25 PM »
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No, I haven't missed any point one iota - the principles are the principles regardless of whether it's Photoshop or another program. If you are implementing colour management because you want systematically predicatably outcomes on paper, the application and the equipment you use should be "colour-manageable" and PS is the predominant (but not unique) application which permit this.  Perhaps you should explain more about the underlying purpose of your original post.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Rhossydd
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« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2009, 01:16:48 PM »
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Quote from: MarkDS
Perhaps you should explain more about the underlying purpose of your original post.
Why ? It's a simple enough enquiry.

If you can't help and don't understand the issue, maybe it's better to leave it to others that may be more knowledgeable.

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sandymc
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« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2009, 01:41:20 PM »
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To answer your narrow question, what you need to be able to say is, where is the data that you are passing to the printer coming from?

A null profile in the sense of not changing the data sent to the printer is actually the same profile as whatever was generating the data used as its color space for that data. So there is actually no single null profile in the sense that you are using the term.  Possibilities for internal profiles include any of the standard gamuts (e.g., sRGB, aRGB, ProPhoto, etc, etc) or perhaps the gamut of your display. By way of example, if you were using LR, and you wanted the same data as is shown on the RGB read outs to be sent to the printer, you would need a "Melissa RGB" profile for raw files, or the imbedded profile for JPEGs and Tifs.

But I'm not at all sure that I understand what it is that that you are trying to achieve here.


Sandy
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2009, 02:06:36 PM »
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Quote from: Rhossydd
Why ? It's a simple enough enquiry.

If you can't help and don't understand the issue, maybe it's better to leave it to others that may be more knowledgeable.

I'm leaving it period, because you have an attitude problem.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....." http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/film/scanning_workflows_with_silverfast_8.shtml
Rhossydd
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« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2009, 03:09:27 PM »
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Quote from: sandymc
To answer your narrow question, what you need to be able to say is, where is the data that you are passing to the printer coming from?
Why ? a printer profile isn't colourspace dependant.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2009, 11:05:14 PM »
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Quote from: MarkDS
I think the more worrisome issue for this person is that the absence of a "no Color Management" option in the printer driver means that printer colour management cannot be turned off, therefore Photoshop Manages Color MUST be turned off

Not necessarily. You can for example, match the RGB working space as an output profile as the document profile, resulting in basically a "null" profile if you will.


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Andrew Rodney
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sandymc
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« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2009, 11:42:45 PM »
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Quote from: Rhossydd
Why ? a printer profile isn't colourspace dependant.

Sorry, but I have no idea what you actually mean by that....profiles define color spaces.

Sandy
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