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Author Topic: Quick Question Micheal about D3X and P65+ DR  (Read 3774 times)
RomanJohnston
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« on: February 04, 2009, 07:15:01 AM »
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Since you have some experience with both. I see Thom Hogan reporting about 10 stops of usable DR in the D3X files he has worked with on his test machine. I see Phase One reporting 12.5 usable stops of DR with the P65+ camera your testing....and of course the DXO numbers are what they are.

I know your not an exhaustive tester like DXO or other sites, but in your normal use, how would you describe the diffrences between the DR of the two cameras from a visual standpoint?

Roman
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michael
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« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2009, 08:17:23 AM »
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No, not in any objective way. Of all the metrics DR is the hardest to quantify. It's very difficult to test and varies depending on a number of variables which I am not comfortable in quantifying.

I doubt that anyone could see a noticeable difference between the two though in real world shooting. At base ISO most top-end cameras now are displaying about 12 stops of DR.
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RomanJohnston
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« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2009, 10:54:44 AM »
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Quote from: michael
No, not in any objective way. Of all the metrics DR is the hardest to quantify. It's very difficult to test and varies depending on a number of variables which I am not comfortable in quantifying.

I doubt that anyone could see a noticeable difference between the two though in real world shooting. At base ISO most top-end cameras now are displaying about 12 stops of DR.

Ok, that is exactly what I was wondering....if there was a noticable diffrence....if one solidly pulled away from the other in that aspect or not.

Is their any other quality diffrences beside the obvious resolution diffrence? IE: does 16 bit vs. 14bit stand out...etc.

I just know the kit I want will end up being about $50,000 with lenses. I know my customers are asking for larger and larger prints.

Just trying to decide between a sooner evolutionary jump to a D3X (less expensive = sooner) or a later jump to what may be a compleatly diffrent world (forgoe the evolutionary jump, save the money, make due with my D300 for now and maybe toward the end of the year get the P65+ kit)

I know such decisions are individually assesed, just trying to get some info from anybody who has worked with both.....what I am trying to find out is if they are in compleatly diffrent worlds.....and if even say a comparable MP count back would also still be in a diffrent realm... than a D3X file.

Right now I push the edge with 40" x 60" prints I am selling and usually I am more comfortable with 30" x 45" as my hard limit on D300 prints. I know MF will do much better. My customers are happy, but myself...well...its a quality thing.

I appreciate your input...thanks for taking the time to respond.

Roman
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Justin Berman
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2009, 09:12:53 AM »
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Quote from: RomanJohnston
Ok, that is exactly what I was wondering....if there was a noticable diffrence....if one solidly pulled away from the other in that aspect or not.

Is their any other quality diffrences beside the obvious resolution diffrence? IE: does 16 bit vs. 14bit stand out...etc.

I just know the kit I want will end up being about $50,000 with lenses. I know my customers are asking for larger and larger prints.

Just trying to decide between a sooner evolutionary jump to a D3X (less expensive = sooner) or a later jump to what may be a compleatly diffrent world (forgoe the evolutionary jump, save the money, make due with my D300 for now and maybe toward the end of the year get the P65+ kit)

I know such decisions are individually assesed, just trying to get some info from anybody who has worked with both.....what I am trying to find out is if they are in compleatly diffrent worlds.....and if even say a comparable MP count back would also still be in a diffrent realm... than a D3X file.

Right now I push the edge with 40" x 60" prints I am selling and usually I am more comfortable with 30" x 45" as my hard limit on D300 prints. I know MF will do much better. My customers are happy, but myself...well...its a quality thing.

I appreciate your input...thanks for taking the time to respond.

Roman


To be fair. You could opt for the P45+. I know capture integration is running some kind of crazy deal right now that can get you 4 free lenses with it. 39MP is nothing to sneeze at either.
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michael
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2009, 09:22:05 AM »
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The gain of the P65+ over the P45+ is in several areas. The extra resolution is real. Going from 39MP to 60MP is like going from 8MP to 11MP, or 16MP to 22MP. Real, but not overwhelming.

The other advantages of the P65+ are a somewhat smoother tonal and colour rendition. Hard to quantify, but visible to everyone that I know who has done the comparison. Also, the high ISO capability of the 65+ appears to be at least a stop more than the 45+. ISO 400 is completely usable and even ISO 800 is acceptable, which is definitely not the case with the P45+.

Sensor Plus is still a few weeks away from shipping, but from what I gather it is very exciting. Imagine also having 15MP resolution along with Nikon D3 type low noise at high ISO, all just a button press away when needed.

Michael


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eleanorbrown
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2009, 09:31:32 AM »
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Michael did you do any long exposures with the P65+?  say one to two minutes and at what iso?  thanks, Eleanor

Quote from: michael
The gain of the P65+ over the P45+ is in several areas. The extra resolution is real. Going from 39MP to 60MP is like going from 8MP to 11MP, or 16MP to 22MP. Real, but not overwhelming.

The other advantages of the P65+ are a somewhat smoother tonal and colour rendition. Hard to quantify, but visible to everyone that I know who has done the comparison. Also, the high ISO capability of the 65+ appears to be at least a stop more than the 45+. ISO 400 is completely usable and even ISO 800 is acceptable, which is definitely not the case with the P45+.

Sensor Plus is still a few weeks away from shipping, but from what I gather it is very exciting. Imagine also having 15MP resolution along with Nikon D3 type low noise at high ISO, all just a button press away when needed.

Michael
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Jack Flesher
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2009, 10:22:56 AM »
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Quote
The other advantages of the P65+ are a somewhat smoother tonal and colour rendition. Hard to quantify, but visible to everyone that I know who has done the comparison. Also, the high ISO capability of the 65+ appears to be at least a stop more than the 45+. ISO 400 is completely usable and even ISO 800 is acceptable, which is definitely not the case with the P45+.


Michael:

I would agree that the P65+ has a somewhat smoother tonality than the P45+, but my take is it is more like an almost AA filter effect from the smaller pixels getting closer to the resolution limits of the glass? Not sure though, and any way you slice it, it isn't an earth shattering difference.  

Absolute color differences are probably the most visible. Here the P25+ and P45+ are closer, while the P65+ is notably different -- neither is better than the other IMO, but they are clearly different in how they respond to the input gamut. Kind of like Fuji versus Kodak film -- like the P65+ has warmer greens when the skies are the same blue if that makes sense...  

A FWIW on P45+ Noise: I just loaded 3.2.6 firmware into my P45+ (had 2.9.something) and at first blush, noise is significantly improved at 800 to where it's useable in a situation it's needed and 400 is reduced to the point I doubt you'd see it in a typical 24 inch print.  However, I have been cautioned this firmware can cause problems in some backs, especially at very long exposures, so I am in the process of testing it thoroughly before I recommend it.  Should have more definitive answers by the end of the week.

FWIW,
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 10:25:22 AM by Jack Flesher » Logged

eleanorbrown
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2009, 11:12:44 AM »
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Not only would like like to hear from Michael about what he thinks about exposures in the one to two minute range with the 65+ but would also like him to comment on Jacks observation about "smoother" tonality similar to an AA effect. thanks!! Eleanor

Quote from: Jack Flesher
Michael:

I would agree that the P65+ has a somewhat smoother tonality than the P45+, but my take is it is more like an almost AA filter effect from the smaller pixels getting closer to the resolution limits of the glass? Not sure though, and any way you slice it, it isn't an earth shattering difference.  

Absolute color differences are probably the most visible. Here the P25+ and P45+ are closer, while the P65+ is notably different -- neither is better than the other IMO, but they are clearly different in how they respond to the input gamut. Kind of like Fuji versus Kodak film -- like the P65+ has warmer greens when the skies are the same blue if that makes sense...  

A FWIW on P45+ Noise: I just loaded 3.2.6 firmware into my P45+ (had 2.9.something) and at first blush, noise is significantly improved at 800 to where it's useable in a situation it's needed and 400 is reduced to the point I doubt you'd see it in a typical 24 inch print.  However, I have been cautioned this firmware can cause problems in some backs, especially at very long exposures, so I am in the process of testing it thoroughly before I recommend it.  Should have more definitive answers by the end of the week.

FWIW,
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Rickard Hansson
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2009, 02:35:30 PM »
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Quote from: michael
The gain of the P65+ over the P45+ is in several areas. The extra resolution is real. Going from 39MP to 60MP is like going from 8MP to 11MP, or 16MP to 22MP. Real, but not overwhelming.

The other advantages of the P65+ are a somewhat smoother tonal and colour rendition. Hard to quantify, but visible to everyone that I know who has done the comparison. Also, the high ISO capability of the 65+ appears to be at least a stop more than the 45+. ISO 400 is completely usable and even ISO 800 is acceptable, which is definitely not the case with the P45+.

Sensor Plus is still a few weeks away from shipping, but from what I gather it is very exciting. Imagine also having 15MP resolution along with Nikon D3 type low noise at high ISO, all just a button press away when needed.

Michael



with "Sensor Plus", are you talking about some kind of pixel binning on sensor level to gather more light for each "pixel"?
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