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Author Topic: sRGB versus Adobe RGB?  (Read 9195 times)
digitaldog
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« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2009, 11:03:03 AM »
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My OS may not be locking into the custom ICC profile of my new 2690xi2, so I would be willing to bet that, once I try his suggestions my problem will be solved, because (at this point) there remains a noticeable difference between files. I don't know anything about Firefox, but I guess I will have a crash course lesson in it today

What OS? I'm going to assume Windows because if Mac, you'd have by default Safari which is color managed.

Shouldn't be the issue however. Even if the profile wasn't being used, they would all match equally poorly. You might want to try Safari if you're on Windows, its color managed. The latest version of FireFox is color managed once you turn it on**

**Type "about:config" on the address bar on Firefox without the quotes, filter for Color to find the o gfx.color_management.enabled;true (by double clicking on it). Quit and restart the app. Done.

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Exactly. That was why I was kinda thinking I should just get used to the idea of developing each RAW image from scratch twice: one in ProPhotoRGB for printing purposes, the other in sRGB for web-publishing purposes.

Process once, export twice (in LR). Or process once in Photoshop, convert to sRGB, save is.
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2009, 11:07:34 AM »
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Quote from: JohnKoerner
Okay, thanks. I was thinking that I might just start from scratch all over again, from RAW, working in sRGB, for images intended for the web. What you're saying is that if I follow the above method, and convert from ProPhotoRGB to sRGB that I will not get unwanted hues ... that can't be seen in my program ... but that will be seen through a web browser ...

Exactly. That was why I was kinda thinking I should just get used to the idea of developing each RAW image from scratch twice: one in ProPhotoRGB for printing purposes, the other in sRGB for web-publishing purposes.

For absolute clarity, where I was heading is that starting from scratch twice is a waste of time. If you follow the approach I recommended (because I've done it many hundreds of times), for the most part your web images will be fine. Photoshop handles the conversion from ProPhoto to sRGB very well as long as you use the standard Edit>Convert To Profile>sRGB route with BPC checked on. You can verify the result by uploading the image (once fully converted to JPEG) to your website and viewing it. Periodically I find some slight tweaks are useful on the end result of the conversions, but not always and not much.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Gordon Buck
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« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2009, 11:21:26 AM »
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Something that I do -- and I'm curious how others may feel about it -- is to convert to sRGB for any file that is saved as a JPEG.  Coming from raw, I process in ProPhoto RGB and sometimes save variations as 16 bit .psd.  I've even taken to printing from these .psd files (usually using Qimage) but I also convert to sRGB and save a JPEG version -- usually at a 10 or 12 CS4 setting.  So when I see a .jpg file on my computer, I know that it is sRGB whether it originated as a .jpg from one of our cameras or was processed from raw.

(Well, almost.  I just began to do this in 2008!)

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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2009, 11:43:46 AM »
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You don't need JPEGs except for applications where small file sizes are important - usually rapid data transmission and internet. You don't need sRGB except for applications which really aren't meant for wide colour spaces - such as web browsers and most projectors. If you need both JPEG and sRGB for these reasons, then what you suggest makes sense.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mlmcasual
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« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2009, 12:40:39 PM »
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What OS? I'm going to assume Windows because if Mac, you'd have by default Safari which is color managed.

Yes I am running winXp.  The result was when the windows ICC lost sync, no profile was being used for ANY application including color managed apps like ps.  In that condition, a 255,0,0 red would look the same in PS srgb,argb,prophoto doc. The red would appear as the 2690's native full out red.  

 I'll need to verify but I believe it loses synch like this each time right after doing a cal/Icc  build.  Whether this Is a windows fault or is a NEC's spectraview fault I couldn't tell you.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 12:43:27 PM by mlmcasual » Logged
JohnKoerner
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« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2009, 01:30:50 PM »
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Quote from: mlmcasual
4)http://www.digistar.com/~dmann/profile_test/


According to this test, my browser is NOT able to color manage.

The images on the bottom row are supposed to look the same, but mine all look different as above. As a matter of fact, they underscore my original dilemma: the sRGB-edited photo on the right appears vastly more vivid and colorful ...

I am going to copy-n-paste these and open them in Photoshop to see if this carries through in my program ...




.
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JohnKoerner
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« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2009, 01:43:24 PM »
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Quote from: mlmcasual
Yes I am running winXp.  The result was when the windows ICC lost sync, no profile was being used for ANY application including color managed apps like ps.  In that condition, a 255,0,0 red would look the same in PS srgb,argb,prophoto doc. The red would appear as the 2690's native full out red.  
 I'll need to verify but I believe it loses synch like this each time right after doing a cal/Icc  build.  Whether this Is a windows fault or is a NEC's spectraview fault I couldn't tell you.


I am running Windows Vista Home Premium.

I copied-n-pasted all of the images in the above test to file, opened in Photoshop, and the same error was there. The far right image (sRGB) was much cleaner and nicer.

I am on the Mozilla website right now. Should I download the latest (3.0.6) version of Firefox?




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Quote from: digitaldog
What OS? I'm going to assume Windows because if Mac, you'd have by default Safari which is color managed.
Shouldn't be the issue however. Even if the profile wasn't being used, they would all match equally poorly. You might want to try Safari if you're on Windows, its color managed. The latest version of FireFox is color managed once you turn it on**

Is Safari part of Firefox or something different? According to Mlmcasual's test, my browser (and even Photoshop) was not making the bottom row of said test look identical, like it was supposed to look




Quote from: digitaldog
**Type "about:config" on the address bar on Firefox without the quotes, filter for Color to find the o gfx.color_management.enabled;true (by double clicking on it). Quit and restart the app. Done.

Okay, I am going to try to dowload Firefox now.




Quote from: digitaldog
Process once, export twice (in LR). Or process once in Photoshop, convert to sRGB, save is.

Thanks again.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2009, 01:47:20 PM »
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Is Safari part of Firefox or something different? According to Mlmcasual's test, my browser (and even Photoshop) was not making the bottom row of said test look identical, like it was supposed to look

Two different (free) web browsers.
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Andrew Rodney
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JohnKoerner
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« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2009, 02:01:46 PM »
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Quote from: digitaldog
Two different (free) web browsers.


I am noting the same problem in Photoshop 7.0.1.

Where the bottom row images are supposed to be identical, my PS program shows the differences also, yet my monitor is supposed to be calibrated

Do I just need to upgrade to a newer program?

Jack
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digitaldog
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« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2009, 02:21:11 PM »
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Quote from: JohnKoerner
I am noting the same problem in Photoshop 7.0.1.
Where the bottom row images are supposed to be identical, my PS program shows the differences also, yet my monitor is supposed to be calibrated

And each image has an embedded profile?
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Andrew Rodney
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mlmcasual
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« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2009, 03:56:26 PM »
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Here try this out also to see if the apps are honoring the embeded profiles.

http://www.mscwar.com/members/sniperx/greentest.jpg

If the motorcycle is blue, the embedded profile was completely ignored. (you don't have color mangment)
If the motorcycle is green, the embedded ICC profile was honored. (you have color managment enabled
If the motorcycle is red, then you're running Windows Vista™ and you have color mangment enabled.


this has a microsoft bgr test profile for a quick check..
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JohnKoerner
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« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2009, 05:34:34 PM »
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Quote from: mlmcasual
Here try this out also to see if the apps are honoring the embeded profiles.

http://www.mscwar.com/members/sniperx/greentest.jpg

If the motorcycle is blue, the embedded profile was completely ignored. (you don't have color mangment)
If the motorcycle is green, the embedded ICC profile was honored. (you have color managment enabled
If the motorcycle is red, then you're running Windows Vista™ and you have color mangment enabled.

this has a microsoft bgr test profile for a quick check..


In my web browser, it was blue (no color management).

When I saved the image and opened in both DPP and Photoshop, it was green (color management).

Interestingly, however, I have Windows Vista

Jack
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frugal
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« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2009, 04:14:53 PM »
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Quote from: JohnKoerner
According to this test, my browser is NOT able to color manage.

The images on the bottom row are supposed to look the same, but mine all look different as above. As a matter of fact, they underscore my original dilemma: the sRGB-edited photo on the right appears vastly more vivid and colorful ...

It does for me too, until I turned on colour management in Firefox at which point they all look as vivid as the right image. The thing that you have to just accept is that for the vast majority of people using the web they won't have any colour management at all so while the image on the right might look vivid to you there's no guarantee as to how it will look on another monitor, unmanaged colour is a total crap shoot.

I would stick with what other people recommended and do all your edits in a wider gamut (like Prophoto) and then convert to sRGB as your last step for preparing for the web.

Quote from: JohnKoerner
I am running Windows Vista Home Premium.

I copied-n-pasted all of the images in the above test to file, opened in Photoshop, and the same error was there. The far right image (sRGB) was much cleaner and nicer.

Something is wrong with your colour management in PS then. PS should detect the embedded profile (assuming you're looking at the jpegs from the bottom row that have embedded profiles) and then they should all look the same.
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JohnKoerner
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« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2009, 10:31:16 AM »
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Quote from: frugal
It does for me too, until I turned on colour management in Firefox at which point they all look as vivid as the right image. The thing that you have to just accept is that for the vast majority of people using the web they won't have any colour management at all so while the image on the right might look vivid to you there's no guarantee as to how it will look on another monitor, unmanaged colour is a total crap shoot.

That is what I am slowly coming to realize. I think I am going to leave my browser as is, since most people have Internet explorer, that is what I will judge my finished sRGB .jpgs by. I find it disconcerting, though, that I may do all kinds of work on an image ... only to have it look like crap to someone else online.

I think if I stick to sRGB, and view through an IE browser, that I will have a reasonable chance of being uniform on the most browsers.




Quote from: frugal
I would stick with what other people recommended and do all your edits in a wider gamut (like Prophoto) and then convert to sRGB as your last step for preparing for the web.

I will.




Quote from: frugal
Something is wrong with your colour management in PS then. PS should detect the embedded profile (assuming you're looking at the jpegs from the bottom row that have embedded profiles) and then they should all look the same.

That is what I am gathering. On the other image (motorbike), Photoshop did recognize the color management, but yet it saw green when supposedly it was supposed to see red. I don't really know what to do about that, or if this is bad.  

I am curious if any "lurkers" here running Vista saw green also ... or if they saw red.

Jack
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mlmcasual
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« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2009, 04:04:59 PM »
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That is what I am slowly coming to realize. I think I am going to leave my browser as is, since most people have Internet explorer, that is what I will judge my finished sRGB .jpgs by

Yes but most people still use srgb gamut monitors. The 2690's wide gamut in uncolor managed apps like IE means you don't see srgb images as srgb but in the monitors native gamut.  This is one reason using a color manged web-browser is important for widegamut monitor users.  Windows IE, Picasa and other uncolor mangaged apps do not honor color management but DO make the assumption the color space of the output device (monitor) is srgb.  You could circumvent this problem in the 2690 by putting it to srgb emulation when using uncolor managed applicatons like Picasa, IE. but I try to stick to using only apps that have color management.    




To help aid as a tool, I am including some samples that were created-set to various colorspaces.
The colors are red green blue 255,000,000  000,255,000  000,000,255




« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 04:52:50 PM by mlmcasual » Logged
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