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Author Topic: Haze under glass of framed prints  (Read 5393 times)
DanPBrown
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« on: February 23, 2009, 05:36:51 PM »
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I have a question that I  hope someone can answer. When I frame photos I almost always get a film that forms on the underside of the glass above the print. The film seems to be related to the ink density of the print as well as possible residue from when I cleaned the glass. The haze is strongest over dark areas and has a swirling pattern like that of the glass cleaner being wiped. I'm using an Epson 2400 with either premium luster or exhibition fiber paper.
I have let the prints air dry for as long as two weeks and I still get the haze. I've tried different glass cleaners to no avail. I have noticed that when I use anti reflection glass, the type with the coating like a lens, that the haze doesn't always form. Note that I don't clean the AR glass since it arrives very clean.
I have also tried different cleaning rags both fabric and paper towels. The prints are dry mounted with 3M positionable mounting adhesive on foam core with either a rag or paper mat.
Does anyone know why this happens and how to minimize it?
Thanks for any ideas,
Dan
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fike
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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2009, 06:04:09 PM »
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Quote from: DanPBrown
I have a question that I  hope someone can answer. When I frame photos I almost always get a film that forms on the underside of the glass above the print. The film seems to be related to the ink density of the print as well as possible residue from when I cleaned the glass. The haze is strongest over dark areas and has a swirling pattern like that of the glass cleaner being wiped. I'm using an Epson 2400 with either premium luster or exhibition fiber paper.
I have let the prints air dry for as long as two weeks and I still get the haze. I've tried different glass cleaners to no avail. I have noticed that when I use anti reflection glass, the type with the coating like a lens, that the haze doesn't always form. Note that I don't clean the AR glass since it arrives very clean.
I have also tried different cleaning rags both fabric and paper towels. The prints are dry mounted with 3M positionable mounting adhesive on foam core with either a rag or paper mat.
Does anyone know why this happens and how to minimize it?
Thanks for any ideas,
Dan

My guess is that it is the positionable mounting adhesive that continues to outgass and fog your glass.  That stuff is not archival and continues to break down the paper and degrade the ink for decades.  When you frame an image, you want to avoid applying any glues or adhesives.  Ideally, you would use photo corners or channels to hang the image within the mat.  I don't use photo corners because most of my stuff is too wide, so another alternative, albeit not as good as photo corners, is to use linen tape and hang the print from the back of the mat.  This allows the print to expand and contract without ripping.  It also minimizes outgassing and hazy residue.
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bill t.
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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2009, 06:23:32 PM »
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Have had that problem with Premium Luster mounted under glass.  In my arrid climate 1 week is usually enough to prevent it from happening.  Yes it was always most pronounced in areas with heavy ink coverage.  I was using just plain glass, not anti-reflection.

If you have a heated dry mount press you can press the print against some paper to speed up drying.  Have never seen this problem with heat dry mounted prints.

With Luster I often use linen liners instead of mattes which separate the print from the glazing by more than 1/4", and I use acrylic glazing instead of glass.  It might be the 1/4" separation that is saving me, have also heard that acrylic has much less tendency to accumulate the deposits.
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JohnBrew
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« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2009, 06:43:18 PM »
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An FYI about linen tape. In humid climates (where I live) this stuff gives up the ghost within several months. Quite embarrassing after you've sold the image.
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Bruce Watson
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« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2009, 06:59:40 PM »
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Quote from: DanPBrown
I have a question that I  hope someone can answer. When I frame photos I almost always get a film that forms on the underside of the glass above the print. The film seems to be related to the ink density of the print as well as possible residue from when I cleaned the glass. The haze is strongest over dark areas and has a swirling pattern like that of the glass cleaner being wiped. I'm using an Epson 2400 with either premium luster or exhibition fiber paper.
What you describe here sounds like outgassing. It's "the haze is strongest over the dark parts of the print" that makes me think this. Outgassing has been discussed for at least the last five years and I'm sure the various threads around the 'net can explain it better than I can here. Search for it and you'll find it.

What I do to fight this is dry my prints with a hand held hair dryer. Low heat, high fan. Right out of the printer. Heats up the glycols and glycerins in the ink carrier enough that they vaporize, then blows them off the print before they can reabsorb. You can smell it and you can feel it through the back of the print while you work it.

Since I started doing this my haze problems have gone away. I've taken prints from the printer to framed and hanging on the wall in 45 minutes without outgassing issues. Will this work for you? I have no idea. But you might want to give it a try and find out.
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Paul2660
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« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2009, 08:20:44 PM »
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With any RC paper, I think you will get this effect, it is outgassing.    At least with Epson, can't speak to the 99 series, but will assume there is still going to be this issue.

You can take the precautions already listed, to in effect speed up the drying process or print on a fiber based paper.  Fiber based will not outgass.
Example of this, Lexjet sunset fiber elite.  2x the price point of Luster but no outgassing.  

I follow the hand dryer method but also place the prints in a press with a layer of very absorbent paper between them.  This will also help to pull
out the gassing.  You can see it in the paper when you pull the prints out of the press.  

Paul Caldwell
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« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2009, 08:31:18 PM »
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Didn't Dan say that he let it dry for two weeks.  Everything I have seen has indicated that a week or two of drying-time is more than enough to allow for outgassing of the inks.
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« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2009, 09:31:39 PM »
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Didn't Dan say that he let it dry for two weeks. Everything I have seen has indicated that a week or two of drying-time is more than enough to allow for outgassing of the inks.

Is the 2400 a dye-ink printer or a pigment-ink printer?  Back with the dye-ink Epsons I used to use, I would get bad outgassing with all glossy or semi-gloss papers even after drying the prints for two weeks with plain printer paper in between; I eventually gave up and started using only matte papers.  With my current 3800, which is a pigment-ink printer, I don't have any noticeable outgassing even with glossy paper (though I still do the "one week with plain paper between prints" routine; I don't know whether it's still necessary, but it can't hurt).

Lisa
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DanPBrown
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2009, 06:23:54 AM »
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Quote from: fike
My guess is that it is the positionable mounting adhesive that continues to outgass and fog your glass.  That stuff is not archival and continues to break down the paper and degrade the ink for decades.  When you frame an image, you want to avoid applying any glues or adhesives.  Ideally, you would use photo corners or channels to hang the image within the mat.  I don't use photo corners because most of my stuff is too wide, so another alternative, albeit not as good as photo corners, is to use linen tape and hang the print from the back of the mat.  This allows the print to expand and contract without ripping.  It also minimizes outgassing and hazy residue.
Boy I hope you are wrong about that, I've using the pma for a few years now. If it were the pma why would the haze be an almost perfect reflection of the print? I would expect an even distribution of haze if the pma were the culprit.
Dan
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DanPBrown
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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2009, 06:26:20 AM »
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Quote from: Bruce Watson
What you describe here sounds like outgassing. It's "the haze is strongest over the dark parts of the print" that makes me think this. Outgassing has been discussed for at least the last five years and I'm sure the various threads around the 'net can explain it better than I can here. Search for it and you'll find it.

What I do to fight this is dry my prints with a hand held hair dryer. Low heat, high fan. Right out of the printer. Heats up the glycols and glycerins in the ink carrier enough that they vaporize, then blows them off the print before they can reabsorb. You can smell it and you can feel it through the back of the print while you work it.

Since I started doing this my haze problems have gone away. I've taken prints from the printer to framed and hanging on the wall in 45 minutes without outgassing issues. Will this work for you? I have no idea. But you might want to give it a try and find out.
I will try your idea, thanks. I have tried standing my prints in front of my wood stove over night, but not any noticeable change.
Dan
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DanPBrown
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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2009, 06:27:23 AM »
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Quote from: nniko
Is the 2400 a dye-ink printer or a pigment-ink printer?  Back with the dye-ink Epsons I used to use, I would get bad outgassing with all glossy or semi-gloss papers even after drying the prints for two weeks with plain printer paper in between; I eventually gave up and started using only matte papers.  With my current 3800, which is a pigment-ink printer, I don't have any noticeable outgassing even with glossy paper (though I still do the "one week with plain paper between prints" routine; I don't know whether it's still necessary, but it can't hurt).

Lisa
Does the 3800 apply a clear coat to the prints like the R1800?
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framah
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« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2009, 08:14:55 AM »
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QUOTE (fike @ Feb 23 2009, 07:04 PM)
My guess is that it is the positionable mounting adhesive that continues to outgass and fog your glass. That stuff is not archival and continues to break down the paper and degrade the ink for decades. When you frame an image, you want to avoid applying any glues or adhesives. Ideally, you would use photo corners or channels to hang the image within the mat. I don't use photo corners because most of my stuff is too wide, so another alternative, albeit not as good as photo corners, is to use linen tape and hang the print from the back of the mat. This allows the print to expand and contract without ripping. It also minimizes outgassing and hazy residue.
Boy I hope you are wrong about that, I've using the pma for a few years now. If it were the pma why would the haze be an almost perfect reflection of the print? I would expect an even distribution of haze if the pma were the culprit.
Dan

The PMA has nothing to do with the outgassing you are seeing. It is solely due to the inks in the print giving up their gasses. Heat mounting it or heating it up in a press does minimize it.

I have alot of my Epson pigment prints hanging for years and they have all been dry mounted and I have no gassing problem.

In all of the years of this discussion whether here or at the framing grumble site there has never been any mention or clues that pointed to PMA being the source of the problem. It is the inks, plain and simple.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 08:20:00 AM by framah » Logged

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framah
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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2009, 08:18:59 AM »
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Just another thought here, whatever glass cleaner you use, make sure it has no ammonia in it. Ammonia in a closed framed piece can cause problems of its own.
If you are seeing swirls like from the cleaning process,  then you aren't cleaning it fully. There should not be any  swirls from cleaning. That's the whole idea of cleaning, that it is clean after you are done.
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jjlphoto
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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2009, 08:29:35 AM »
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Quote from: nniko
Is the 2400 a dye-ink printer or a pigment-ink printer?
Pigment-ink.

Quote from: DanPBrown
Does the 3800 apply a clear coat to the prints like the R1800?
No.
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Lisa Nikodym
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« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2009, 10:31:27 AM »
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Agreement with jjlphoto's answer on the lack of clear coat.

So if the 2400 is a pigment-ink printer, I'm a *little* surprised that you're getting much more of a problem than I am.  The one thing I'm doing differently is that, instead of letting the prints simply air-dry for a week or two, I'm interleaving them with plain copier paper.  Epson has recommended that in order to help draw the gasses from the paper faster than just air-drying.  Still, though, I occasionally notice a *little* outgassing with particularly dark prints.  Perhaps using the plain paper does help substantially; you might give it a try and see if it helps you.

Lisa
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DanPBrown
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« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2009, 03:58:04 PM »
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Quote from: nniko
Agreement with jjlphoto's answer on the lack of clear coat.

So if the 2400 is a pigment-ink printer, I'm a *little* surprised that you're getting much more of a problem than I am.  The one thing I'm doing differently is that, instead of letting the prints simply air-dry for a week or two, I'm interleaving them with plain copier paper.  Epson has recommended that in order to help draw the gasses from the paper faster than just air-drying.  Still, though, I occasionally notice a *little* outgassing with particularly dark prints.  Perhaps using the plain paper does help substantially; you might give it a try and see if it helps you.

Lisa
Many of my prints have areas of black.
http://www.danbrownphotography.com/galleri...bum=2&pos=1
http://www.danbrownphotography.com/galleri...bum=8&pos=5
I agree that the glass is not getting fully clean. Two thoughts. First, I have had my windex spill on my drafting table before. When the liquid dries it leaves a blue stain behind. That tells me that when it evaporates it leaves something behind.
Second, I wonder if my paper towels may leave something behind. It seems manufacturers are often adding scents or moisturizers to everything.
What are your opinions for the best method of cleaning the glass? Remember that I have less problems with the AR glass. The only difference is that I don't have to clean that glass and it has a coating on it.
Dan
www.danbrownphotography.com
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framah
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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2009, 04:11:14 PM »
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Don't use Windex...it has ammonia in it!!

I use Glass Plus. It works fine and has no ammonia.  The blue is not a problem unless you get it onto the print paper or mat,  then it stains it. As you aren't leaving the Windex or whatever on the glass to evaporate ie., you are actually wiping it off there so  would be no residue.

You need to wipe the glass thoroughly until it is completely dry. Use enough to get the whole surface wet and then dry it long enough so you have wiped it all off and it is completely dry.
This should help in not getting swirlies on the glass afterwards.

I use plain Scott paper towels. You can also use baby diapers so you can wash them and reuse them. No fabric softener, tho.


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jjlphoto
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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2009, 04:11:32 PM »
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I use Glass Plus as well.
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Randy Carone
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« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2009, 07:00:45 AM »
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Most paper towels contain a binder, usually Vinyl Acetate Ethylene, which can leave invisible streaks that can then trap airborne vapors. In addition, I agree with the posts that say NO AMMONIA. My experience with adhesive-backed vinyl is that the ammonia content can have a negative effect on adhesion properties. In that situation, it is always recommended that an alcohol wipe be done as a final step after using any cleaning product. This may be the solution in this situation in order to make certain nothing is left behind on the glass that can trap the volatiles.
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Randy Carone
DanPBrown
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« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2009, 03:48:35 PM »
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Quote from: Randy Carone
Most paper towels contain a binder, usually Vinyl Acetate Ethylene, which can leave invisible streaks that can then trap airborne vapors. In addition, I agree with the posts that say NO AMMONIA. My experience with adhesive-backed vinyl is that the ammonia content can have a negative effect on adhesion properties. In that situation, it is always recommended that an alcohol wipe be done as a final step after using any cleaning product. This may be the solution in this situation in order to make certain nothing is left behind on the glass that can trap the volatiles.
What would you suggest for a towel?
Thanks,
Dan
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