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Author Topic: Franke & Heidecke became insovent  (Read 134165 times)
tho_mas
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« Reply #340 on: June 28, 2009, 06:50:32 PM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Are we not shooting for the highest possible quality of file
actually for the highest impact of an image.
For the best way to express something.
To tell something.
For an artistical (whatever) approach of the content you create.
Without content the file is useless. With content the file is not that important.

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« Reply #341 on: June 28, 2009, 07:22:53 PM »
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Quote from: mcfoto
Yes CGI is here & we have used it on most our Ad work in conjunction with photography( last 6 months) . You have to come from the point of view that you are a photographic artist that can make an agency brief really come to life rather than an everyday Ad. With CGI you have to know what is possible & be able to work with the retouch artists to create the best quality work within a certain budget. IMHO gone are the days that every brief will be photographic.
For Frank
The RED camera @ 40K, in the film industry I don't think that is a lot. I can see rental houses buying this camera & since it uses the Mamiya mount they will buy lenses & considering the range from the 28mm to 300mm including 3 zooms. And the RED camera needs focal plane lenses. I have heard that Panavision is seeing RED!! Also I just saw a 5min movie trailer shot with the 5DMKII about a new boxing movie in Australia & it was amazing! The success of the 5DMKII is not only with photographers but is in the motion industry/video to. We now live in changing times & MFD (Hy6 ) is feeling it.
Denis

Sorry, didn't understand your points.
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mcfoto
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« Reply #342 on: June 28, 2009, 08:07:18 PM »
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Quote from: Professional
Sorry, didn't understand your points.
Read back a few posts. The point is that CGI (3D) & the RED camera or any motion/still camera ( 5DMKII included ) is changing our industry as we speak. Also Mamiya could benefit by selling lenses onto the RED platform. I know this thread is about the Hy6 camera & F&H which is about to start bankruptcy proceedings in a few days July 1, 2009. As a result we could end up with only 2 players in MFD. Phase just bought Leaf or parts of & if the Hy6 goes what happens to Sinar? I just have spent 3 days @ the PMA the largest photo show in Australia & I know people @ Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Phase One, Hasselblad.......& these are my thoughts. Even talking to other photographers things are changing at a very rapid rate.
Denis
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 08:24:25 PM by mcfoto » Logged

Denis Montalbetti
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« Reply #343 on: June 28, 2009, 08:43:19 PM »
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Quote from: mcfoto
Read back a few posts. The point is that CGI (3D) & the RED camera or any motion/still camera ( 5DMKII included ) is changing our industry as we speak. Also Mamiya could benefit by selling lenses onto the RED platform. I know this thread is about the Hy6 camera & F&H which is about to start bankruptcy proceedings in a few days July 1, 2009. As a result we could end up with only 2 players in MFD. Phase just bought Leaf or parts of & if the Hy6 goes what happens to Sinar? I just have spent 3 days @ the PMA the largest photo show in Australia & I know people @ Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Phase One, Hasselblad.......& these are my thoughts. Even talking to other photographers things are changing at a very rapid rate.
Denis

Ahs i see.
In fact the world is changing as well, and about photography we are very new in this world, so we are looking for those experienced to give us the tips or ways in this world, and also for those who using all formats from Pinhole to Large format what are their reviews and conclusion about the formats.
I don't know how to explain it well, but for us hobbyist, what will this thread help us in? reading about mostly MF systems will not help us if we don't know or use or even hear about those systems, and because i am so curious i just ask to see what's going on, and about the markets changed, it doesn't stop people or photographers anyway, who knows maybe after 10 years we will see P&S cameras with at least 40mp and then that time maybe some pros or so picky photographers will say that 200mp is not enough, and maybe companies will fight who can produce the best 500mp camera in the world.
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AndreNapier
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« Reply #344 on: June 28, 2009, 08:49:26 PM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
actually for the highest impact of an image.
For the best way to express something.
To tell something.
For an artistical (whatever) approach of the content you create.
Without content the file is useless. With content the file is not that important.

You of course right on but ( there is always the but...)
From a business prospective the only way to survive and to put yourself ahead of competition is to offer your clients the absolute best you can with the finances that your business can afford. It really does not matter in a short run if your client see the difference between MFD and 1ds files. In a short run they would probably not see the difference if a month later you went with 5D and a month later with 8MP.
They would probably not notice if you sold your Profotos or Brons and went with Lowell or whatever the chepest brand it.
But... somehow in the end it all come to play regardless what business you are in. Over 25 years  I have seen it to many times in various businesses that the moment you become comfortable and stop walking on the cutting edge is the moment that others pass you over before you even can see it. Everybody is very happy with your work but somehow the phone does not ring that often.
And Yes of course there is nothing uglier than a sharp picture with a boring content.
Andre
« Last Edit: June 28, 2009, 08:51:12 PM by AndreNapier » Logged
Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #345 on: June 29, 2009, 12:54:11 AM »
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@Guy,
Did not want to say it that direct, but yes I agree that we should not stop caring for the product/passion and only think about economics.
I however did not want to go so far that you're not you're not caring for the picture anymore when you sell MF and go for the DSLR.
Because in the end it all boils down to the final image, as Andre said, the picture should do the talking and in reality it doesn't matter if it's shot on 4-8-12-22-50 MPs.
Maybe some photographers like the workflow of a DSLR more, for me personally I also love working with the Canon for speed and handling, but when I look at my files and the tethered solutions and the no buffer problems of my MF back I'm convinced that for me MF is the only way to do my work (at the moment).
So especially with pricing now a days I can't think of a reason why people would say MF is at the end of it's live, I think it's maybe at the start because now it's affordable for everyone.
Although there are much less companies offering solutions, there still is a busload of second hand gear that's not only very good but so much fun to work with, take the RZ67ProII working with that camera stimulates my creative process how weird that might sound.

@Dennis,
In the film world the Red is cheap indeed, but for me as a photographer although I would LOVE to shoot with it, it's simply way out of reach.
I DO have to have SOME way of repaying my investment and earning back 40K minimum in the Netherlands with photography...... that's hard

By the way, which cycle of americas next top model did you cooperate with ?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 12:59:40 AM by Frank Doorhof » Logged
James R Russell
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« Reply #346 on: June 29, 2009, 02:11:49 AM »
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Guy,

You need to put some sunscreen on. (take that as a joke).

But honestly if you think professional photography has that much to do with the camera, you need to get out more, because there are thousands, maybe millions of really astounding photographs, shot by amazing "professional" photographers in all formats and at this stage I would bet 80% of them are shot with  a Canon, or Nikon and the people that are shooting these photographs are far from lazy, dumbing it down or non caring.  Cut some slack because these photographers give their life to this biz, in fact anybody I know that's good gives their life to this biz.

Also, if you really believe that the format, or cost of the camera adds to the professionalism, then  that's your choice, but if you believe your own words then it's time to sell the suv and pick up a p65+.

Personally I think still photography is in a slump and it takes more than still camera's  format to get a client's, or a photographer's attention.

I'm with gwhtif (I never spell that name correctly), but I see most of these cameras in the same way I see a toaster oven.  They work, until something better comes along, so they are given to KEH, ebay or the camera safe.

The only cameras I probably will not sell are the Contax/Phase, but that has a lot more to do with the camera than the digital backs and I haven't used them for serious work in 9 months, so even at bargain basement prices, I probably should dust off the boxes and see what they're worth (though I know I won't).

Anyway, I bought a 5d2, only for the video capabilities and though the camera doesn't rock my world, the images it produces does.

This example is from a shoot this week, of motion and  still imagery and shot mostly with the 5d2.  I'm amazed by this camera because in the middle of shooting high def motion, you just push the shutter and click, you've got a raw and high rez jpeg still good enough for any print publication in the world.

I don't like posting pixel peeping sizes, so I've knocked this down to 1/2 size, but at full resolution the hdv clip is almost good enough to retouch and run in print as it covers a 23" apple monitor almost side to side.  The still image at 60mpx is way good enough for anything and keep in mind this example was shot at 1600 iso, hand held at F 2.something.  Also keep in mind this is at 1/2 the real resolution.

[attachment=14911:runningdsmc.jpg]

But the thing is,  this thread is about F+H and their woes and I still hold to the fact that if F+H and their related digital back associates had produced a camera with the capabilities of this $3,000 5d2, they would be rolling in cash.

I somewhat appreciate your passion and if you honestly believe that the cameras you chose make you better then it probably does.  That doesn't mean everybody else is asleep at the wheel because they haven't called in the latest digital back.

At least that's my opinion.

JR
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 02:14:19 AM by James R Russell » Logged

Frank Doorhof
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« Reply #347 on: June 29, 2009, 02:20:07 AM »
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@james,
Funny about the 5DMKII that mirrors mij feelings exactly.
When the new firmware was released I refound my love for video and the 5DMKII is now used more for video than photography

How do you handle the focus ?
I found that using the display was a dissaster and ordered a LCDHood3.0 which I connected to the LCD.
Added plus is that you have an extra contact point with your head so the shots are more steady.

I would love to be able to take frames from the stream as with the Red
But what to expect from such a cheap camera, it's a revolution in my opinion.
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DArmand
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« Reply #348 on: June 29, 2009, 02:39:29 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
If all your are doing is trying to fill a clients needs than you are certainly cheating the needs as a artist and sorry to say your professionalism is pretty damn weak to begin with.

I can't speak for others but my intepretation of professionallism is delivering exactly what the client wants - not what I think they should have.
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Doug Armand
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« Reply #349 on: June 29, 2009, 02:47:34 AM »
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I think you are misinterpreting Guys words. I read them as, 'if you only want to deliver what your clients want and have no other ambition, like growing as an artist'. Naturally the type of equipment you are using doesn't say anything about your professionalism or dedication to photography but the will to constantly improve on all levels does. This level could very well include the technical level, where equipment and your skills of using it can play a role. As far as I am concerned it is the type of level that is most easily improved because at this level a lack of talent can be compensated by hard work. Other levels as, vision, compositional awareness, experience, the ability to embed an emotional level into an image are so much harder to improve upon. At least I feel so which doesn't mean I don't try to constantly improve upon that part...

Personally I am in a phase where I can deliver exactly what a client wants and in most cases they are satisfied (to the point the phone/mail does keep ringing ) but do I find it satisfactory all the time? No, I don't. Some of the work I do and don't enjoy that much, I do because it pays the mortgage and allows me to invest in the things I need or like (to do). Much of the things I do out of personal motifs brings me much more joy in many cases but doesn't generate me as much income. Maybe it is where the job gets separated from the hobby  I am working on getting paid for doing just the things I enjoy. The reality is a bit different but some day I am convinced I will succeed... in the mean time if I have to do something to make a living it might as well be photography even if it sometimes means doing part of it that isn't that compelling to me.

Where does the difference of dslr or mf comes in? It doesn't. It is merely a tool that allows me to do a certain thing where I still have use for mf. It is still a personal favorite for many things, I guess or hope I am not the only person remaining.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 03:01:27 AM by Dustbak » Logged
Khun_K
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« Reply #350 on: June 29, 2009, 03:19:55 AM »
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Quote from: James R Russell
Guy,

You need to put some sunscreen on. (take that as a joke).

But honestly if you think professional photography has that much to do with the camera, you need to get out more, because there are thousands, maybe millions of really astounding photographs, shot by amazing "professional" photographers in all formats and at this stage I would bet 80% of them are shot with  a Canon, or Nikon and the people that are shooting these photographs are far from lazy, dumbing it down or non caring.  Cut some slack because these photographers give their life to this biz, in fact anybody I know that's good gives their life to this biz.

Also, if you really believe that the format, or cost of the camera adds to the professionalism, then  that's your choice, but if you believe your own words then it's time to sell the suv and pick up a p65+.

Personally I think still photography is in a slump and it takes more than still camera's  format to get a client's, or a photographer's attention.

I'm with gwhtif (I never spell that name correctly), but I see most of these cameras in the same way I see a toaster oven.  They work, until something better comes along, so they are given to KEH, ebay or the camera safe.

The only cameras I probably will not sell are the Contax/Phase, but that has a lot more to do with the camera than the digital backs and I haven't used them for serious work in 9 months, so even at bargain basement prices, I probably should dust off the boxes and see what they're worth (though I know I won't).

Anyway, I bought a 5d2, only for the video capabilities and though the camera doesn't rock my world, the images it produces does.

This example is from a shoot this week, of motion and  still imagery and shot mostly with the 5d2.  I'm amazed by this camera because in the middle of shooting high def motion, you just push the shutter and click, you've got a raw and high rez jpeg still good enough for any print publication in the world.

I don't like posting pixel peeping sizes, so I've knocked this down to 1/2 size, but at full resolution the hdv clip is almost good enough to retouch and run in print as it covers a 23" apple monitor almost side to side.  The still image at 60mpx is way good enough for anything and keep in mind this example was shot at 1600 iso, hand held at F 2.something.  Also keep in mind this is at 1/2 the real resolution.

[attachment=14911:runningdsmc.jpg]

But the thing is,  this thread is about F+H and their woes and I still hold to the fact that if F+H and their related digital back associates had produced a camera with the capabilities of this $3,000 5d2, they would be rolling in cash.

I somewhat appreciate your passion and if you honestly believe that the cameras you chose make you better then it probably does.  That doesn't mean everybody else is asleep at the wheel because they haven't called in the latest digital back.

At least that's my opinion.

JR
Totally agreed.  I don't remember any art exhibition on photographs is about the number of pixels, sharpness of picture, corner performance and so and so, it is about the picture and the character of the picture or the photographer himself. I hardly have clients asked which camera I use, nor if I necessary use a P45+ for higher paid job and Canon 1Ds3/D3X for less budget work, I use whichever camera I like to use, regardless the budget because I think the choice of camera is mine, not the client, and I don't think my client hire me because the type of camera I use or for that matter, they hire any photographer for their camera, otherwise, anyone simply go to buy the best camera available and be the top choice Ithink this industry is a lot better than that.

Regards, K
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michael
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« Reply #351 on: June 29, 2009, 07:12:04 AM »
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I'll simply echo James' comment by adding that though a lot of photographers drop into my gallery, look at prints on the wall and want to discus cameras, backs, and lenses used, I have never ever sold a print to anyone who asked what camera it was shot with.

I'm also amused by the fact that the Home Page shot that's up today has garnered quite a bit of positive comment via email, but was taken with a $400 point and shoot. I've had P65+ shots that haven't elicited anywhere near as much favourable comment.

Michael
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 07:12:39 AM by michael » Logged
gwhitf
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« Reply #352 on: June 29, 2009, 07:21:47 AM »
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Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Are we not shooting for the highest possible quality of file and just because a clients needs maybe more web at the time do we shoot a P&S just to satisfy it, come one give me a break. If you got into photography for any length of time we all yearned for the highest quality images we can get for ourselves if you did not than what the hell are you calling yourself a Pro for. Stop the self indulgent patting each other on the back for shooting a cheap Canon and getting by. Grow up be a man and shoot beyond what is expected , is our pride that short sided and you want to stick a the name Pro in front of yours .

Thanks for getting me back on track, Mr. Mancuso. I stand corrected. I went to your site to see the difference between 35 and MF, and it's clearly there. How did you achieve that excellent "spinning M", and those excellent quality animated GIFs in the upper left corner? I see what you're talking about now. Thanks.

http://www.guymancusophoto.com/

I'll follow your lead from now on.

I can read your inspirational words, but it's not until I see your site and your images that the full impact truly hits home. Thanks.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 07:23:41 AM by gwhitf » Logged
fmo
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« Reply #353 on: June 29, 2009, 07:31:53 AM »
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Why didn't I expect to read about personal issues when I opened this thread?

Ah, stupid me, it was because of its title...
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tho_mas
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« Reply #354 on: June 29, 2009, 07:37:28 AM »
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Quote from: AndreNapier
You of course right on but ( there is always the but...)
I agree.
Of course there is a but when we simplify and polarize.
I just didn't like the inversion of the argument that everyone how shoots anything but a P65+ or Aputs II don't care about quality or is shooting without passion or concept and whatever is needed to make a good image.
The gear is part of the execution and of course adds to the impact of an image... if it has any impact at all.
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #355 on: June 29, 2009, 08:00:09 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Thanks for getting me back on track, Mr. Mancuso. I stand corrected. I went to your site to see the difference between 35 and MF, and it's clearly there. How did you achieve that excellent "spinning M", and those excellent quality animated GIFs in the upper left corner? I see what you're talking about now. Thanks.

http://www.guymancusophoto.com/

I'll follow your lead from now on.

I can read your inspirational words, but it's not until I see your site and your images that the full impact truly hits home. Thanks.


Look at the date 2001, yea it's older than pop art. And I did not design it . Frankly been wanting to rip it down for a long time but of course it's always nice to be picked on by yet another whiner in the field. BTW it's a design and not my photography either. Also none of it is even MF digital. What you did not understand or even consider is the shortcuts that we are teaching the young bloods to take we are simply taking photography and cheapening it to no end. My comments had nothing to do with content or actually gear but the attitude that I see everyday coming from Pro's. What's happening to our industry is bad enough but lately it's all about what shortcuts to take. Anyway who gives a shit anyway it was meant to think. Do whatever you want with your clients but mine have been around for years and i will make sure it stay's that way. I like the return phone calls

Of course the part no one grasped was this and what it was all about

FYI this comes from the mirror you just walked in front of , not me. BTW this had very little to do with gear but the space between our ears.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 08:07:28 AM by Guy Mancuso » Logged

Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #356 on: June 29, 2009, 08:41:48 AM »
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Quote from: gwhitf
Thanks for getting me back on track, Mr. Mancuso. I stand corrected. I went to your site to see the difference between 35 and MF, and it's clearly there. How did you achieve that excellent "spinning M", and those excellent quality animated GIFs in the upper left corner? I see what you're talking about now. Thanks....

gwhitf, a.k.a. xxx, it is really going too far to attack other posters while you hide behind a false name.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 10:03:16 AM by michael » Logged

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« Reply #357 on: June 29, 2009, 08:49:01 AM »
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Quote from: John-S
Graham,

You are back to your same old policing bullshit. Let it between them. No one said anything about Sinar for you to jump in.

lol, the hypocrisy is staggering Nice language too. All in all an excellent post. Keep up the good work.
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tho_mas
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« Reply #358 on: June 29, 2009, 09:02:47 AM »
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Quote from: foto-z
gwhitf
Graham, if gwhitf is the respective person it's totally up to him to post with nick name. It's very bad style to post his real name.
Please edit your post immediately...
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Guy Mancuso
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« Reply #359 on: June 29, 2009, 09:03:33 AM »
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Quote from: foto-z
gwhitf, a.k.a. Mark Tucker, it is really going too far to attack other posters while you hide behind a false name.


Thanks Graham. Nice to know he can still throw insults around and hide behind a name handle. Really showed his professionalism here and the constant whining we all have to endure. No interest here anymore if this is allowed
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