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Author Topic: More Details on the Leica S2  (Read 66702 times)
tho_mas
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« on: March 04, 2009, 04:51:38 PM »
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http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/

(By the way, Leica stopped the R-Line by today)
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Jonathan Lee
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« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2009, 04:56:12 PM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/

(By the way, Leica stopped the R-Line by today)

They discontinued the R line? Please tell us more.
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carstenw
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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2009, 04:56:25 PM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
(By the way, Leica stopped the R-Line by today)

What??? Could you elaborate?
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tho_mas
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« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2009, 04:58:56 PM »
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unfortunately in German.
As all bad news here these days :-)

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/...html#post831158
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carstenw
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« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2009, 05:20:21 PM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
unfortunately in German.
As all bad news here these days :-)

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/...html#post831158

Here is the link to the letter sent by Leica to dealers. It is in German.

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/...tion-7_2009.pdf

What was said was that all existing Leica R cameras and lenses are no longer available, and will no longer be produced. However, this is followed by a paragraph talking about a generational change, and that as soon as possible, more information will be made available about this. I presume this is the R10, although the wording makes it sound like the new system will no longer be called the R system.
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lisa_r
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« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2009, 05:22:20 PM »
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I guess there are still no prices on any of this S2 stuff??

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carstenw
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« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2009, 05:46:55 PM »
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Quote from: lisa_r
I guess there are still no prices on any of this S2 stuff??

No. Leica's CEO once stated that they were keeping the price below 20.000 Euro, with the goal being 15.000. He didn't say whether that would include the 70mm. The system is meant to be properly announced in late summer.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 05:47:25 PM by carstenw » Logged

BJL
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« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2009, 07:58:59 PM »
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BabelFish handles this unusually well:

"... Today we would like to inform you about the fact that immediately no LEICA R9 and no more R-objectives is available. A renewed production does not take place. Accessories for the Leica R-system, which are published in the price list, can refer you naturally so long available over the Customer service. We work at present intensively on it, also by the attained realizations from the development of the LEICA S2, which we will bring in the late summer to 2009 on the market to make a change of generations possible in the past R-system."

It is fairly clear from this that the entire R-system is discontinued, not just the R9 body, and what is replacing it is the new 30x45mm format S system (note: S follows R), not an R10. This fulfills my idea that Leica, like Olympus with OM and 4/3, has decided that the digital transition is best done with a clean break from the old manual focus, mechanically coupled system, not hampering progress with lens backward compatibility, so a new format might as well be chosen. Except that Leica is upsizing instead of downsizing, probably wise for its naturally high end target market.
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Khun_K
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« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2009, 08:27:09 PM »
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Quote from: BJL
BabelFish handles this unusually well:

"... Today we would like to inform you about the fact that immediately no LEICA R9 and no more R-objectives is available. A renewed production does not take place. Accessories for the Leica R-system, which are published in the price list, can refer you naturally so long available over the Customer service. We work at present intensively on it, also by the attained realizations from the development of the LEICA S2, which we will bring in the late summer to 2009 on the market to make a change of generations possible in the past R-system."

It is fairly clear from this that the entire R-system is discontinued, not just the R9 body, and what is replacing it is the new 30x45mm format S system (note: S follows R), not an R10. This fulfills my idea that Leica, like Olympus with OM and 4/3, has decided that the digital transition is best done with a clean break from the old manual focus, mechanically coupled system, not hampering progress with lens backward compatibility, so a new format might as well be chosen. Except that Leica is upsizing instead of downsizing, probably wise for its naturally high end target market.
I would take this as a good news. Leica is a company too small to carry such broad line of products and design a system from group up with focus on right technology is a bold and smart move, with film, its understandable to keep standard size, with chips, if it is available, then size really does not matter, only the result matters.  Anyway, it is all about the right marketing now.
I have in the past till now have a good collection of R lenses myself, these days they go on my Canon, but rarely.  What I might suggest Leica to do, and perhaps not too difficult to do, is to produce lens when the demand is sufficient, no, the R itself is a market too small, but convert the R lens to EF or F mount to sell to those Canon and Nikon users may not be such a bad idea.
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carstenw
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« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2009, 04:32:18 AM »
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Quote from: BJL
BabelFish handles this unusually well:

"... Today we would like to inform you about the fact that immediately no LEICA R9 and no more R-objectives is available. A renewed production does not take place. Accessories for the Leica R-system, which are published in the price list, can refer you naturally so long available over the Customer service. We work at present intensively on it, also by the attained realizations from the development of the LEICA S2, which we will bring in the late summer to 2009 on the market to make a change of generations possible in the past R-system."

It is fairly clear from this that the entire R-system is discontinued, not just the R9 body, and what is replacing it is the new 30x45mm format S system (note: S follows R), not an R10. This fulfills my idea that Leica, like Olympus with OM and 4/3, has decided that the digital transition is best done with a clean break from the old manual focus, mechanically coupled system, not hampering progress with lens backward compatibility, so a new format might as well be chosen. Except that Leica is upsizing instead of downsizing, probably wise for its naturally high end target market.

On the contrary, Leica explicitly states that the successor to the R9 will be built from technology used in the S2 project, not that the S2 *is* the successor. The above lousy translation does the German text no justice. Here is one I hand-tuned from a Google translation:

"Ladies and Gentlemen,

we want to thank you very much for the successful sale of the Leica R system in the recent years. Many photographers worldwide now use this system with joy and great success. Therefore many thanks.

Today we would like to inform you that from now on no LEICA R9 or R-Lenses are available. There will be no new production. Accessories for the Leica R System in the published price list, you can obviously obtain while on the Stock Customer Service.

We are currently working hard on a new generation of the formerly named R-system, with insights gained from the development of LEICA S2, which will be introduced in the late summer of 2009 on the market [the S2, not the R followup]. We will keep you informed.

We wish you, in our common interest, a continued successful collaboration."

One of the key words here I have translated with "former", but the German "bisherige" is much more ambiguous. It is not clear if the reference is to the system known as the R system *up until now*, or if it really means "former", i.e. no more. In either case, Leica's intent with the letter appears to be to reassure the clientele as much as possible that the successor is being worked on, and will be something like a baby-S2, while at the same time being honest about the risks involved and the possibility that there won't be one in the end.

What is really missing from this is a statement about the future compatibility of the existing R lenses.
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tho_mas
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« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2009, 04:45:27 AM »
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Quote from: carstenw
What is really missing from this is a statement about the future compatibility of the existing R lenses.
exactly.
Does not make much sense to announce the end of production of the so far named "R"-line without announcing a follow up.
They don't talk about a new generation of the R-line but about a generation change (based on the insights from the S2-production).
I think it's quite obvious that the upcoming AF system will be not backward compatible.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 07:11:00 AM by tho_mas » Logged
BJL
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« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2009, 10:17:36 AM »
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Quote from: carstenw
Today we would like to inform you that from now on no LEICA R9 or R-Lenses are available. There will be no new production.
That part seems clear: there will be no more production of R-lenses. So whatever Leica has coming, it is fairly clear that R-lenses are not part of the plan.
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jjlphoto
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« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2009, 10:33:57 AM »
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Probably means new lenses for the proposed R10 system will be auto focus, electronic diaphram, like a Canon lens. There are just not enough manual focus customers out there anymore.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 10:36:04 AM by jjlphoto » Logged

Thanks, John Luke

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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2009, 03:45:54 PM »
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Quote from: tho_mas
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/

(By the way, Leica stopped the R-Line by today)

Plus
- amazing AF lenses, some with leaf shutter (TBC, as of now only Leica calls them amazing)
- high mepa pixel sensor
- good ergonomics
- Leica build and design (although some M8 owners would disagree)
- differentiation from the competition

Minus
- 14 bits (can be debated)
- micro-lenses (can be debated)
- no life view
- 15.000 Euros
- credibility of Leica as a long term supplier of high end digital equipment
- likely lack of accessories from third parties (L brackets,...)
- no second hand offering in lenses,...

It really is sandwitched between the D3x and high end backs. All in all, I am still not sure who this is targetting...

- PJ guys looking for a higher image quality?
  - I don't believe that any pro PJ photographer will be able to afford this beast, newspapers also won't want to invest
  - the files are too large to be uploaded easily while on a assignement
  - the jpeg engine is likely to suck big time compared to what the DSLR can deliver
  - how to handle the backup issue?
  - what if your bodies did on you in Ulan Bator?
  - does it make sense to walk the suburbs of Badgad with 25.000 Euros worth of equipment around your neck?

- high end fashion shooters looking for better AF (TBC)?
  - Is the AF of the H3D/Mamiya really that bad?
  - But are the additional 13 megapixel over the D3x really worth 8000 Euros considering the actual usage of fashion images?
  - How is medium iso image quality going to be?
  - aren't all the high end shooters already well equiped with gear that works?

- landscape guys?
  - But the lack of T/S lenses will hurt here for some
  - The lack of life view is also a major issue here if you are really into large print sizes
  - The hardcore MFDB shooters will want 16 bits and micro lenses less sensors (whether that is relevant or not is a different question)

- people who like the look of the Leica lenses and for whom money doesn't matter?
  - Nothing to say here

- the so called rich dentists
  - most probably so

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
KevinA
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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2009, 04:54:49 PM »
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It really is sandwitched between the D3x and high end backs. All in all, I am still not sure who this is targetting...

Me,
I shoot aerials this looks purpose made for me, I'm fed up with 35mm lens performance on Canon (I have Nikon lenses as well) the  MF offerings just does not handle well enough. All I need is a basic quality camera I can set iso, meter, set a shutter speed and Aperture and focus some sharp lenses. That's it for me, I don't need high speed, I don't need to change viewfinders, I don't even need auto focus, basically I don't need want or desire any bells and whistles.  I just want a camera that gets the basics right.
Wether in the present climate I can afford the bloody thing is another question.

Kevin.
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Kevin.
adam z
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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2009, 05:03:27 PM »
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I put a post up about this camera a few minutes ago elswhere on this forum, then found this - sorry!

Anyway it answers some of my questions, and the price ( I heard that it would be similarly priced to a 1Ds MkIII at one stage - but found it hard to believe)means that a MF back and body are not a whole lot different (I think) and would probably be better, although I love the idea of the small body which probably handles much better than more traditional MF designs (for handheld shooting especially) - this is early days, maybe later incarnations of this exciting new camera may be fantastic. We shall see.
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Graham Mitchell
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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2009, 05:03:47 PM »
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Quote from: KevinA
the  MF offerings just does not handle well enough.

Can you elaborate?
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Graham Mitchell - www.graham-mitchell.com
paratom
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« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2009, 01:44:22 AM »
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Quote from: BernardLanguillier
Plus
- amazing AF lenses, some with leaf shutter (TBC, as of now only Leica calls them amazing)
- high mepa pixel sensor
- good ergonomics
- Leica build and design (although some M8 owners would disagree)
- differentiation from the competition

Minus
- 14 bits (can be debated)
- micro-lenses (can be debated)
- no life view
- 15.000 Euros
- credibility of Leica as a long term supplier of high end digital equipment
- likely lack of accessories from third parties (L brackets,...)
- no second hand offering in lenses,...

It really is sandwitched between the D3x and high end backs. All in all, I am still not sure who this is targetting...

- PJ guys looking for a higher image quality?
  - I don't believe that any pro PJ photographer will be able to afford this beast, newspapers also won't want to invest
  - the files are too large to be uploaded easily while on a assignement
  - the jpeg engine is likely to suck big time compared to what the DSLR can deliver
  - how to handle the backup issue?
  - what if your bodies did on you in Ulan Bator?
  - does it make sense to walk the suburbs of Badgad with 25.000 Euros worth of equipment around your neck?

- high end fashion shooters looking for better AF (TBC)?
  - Is the AF of the H3D/Mamiya really that bad?
  - But are the additional 13 megapixel over the D3x really worth 8000 Euros considering the actual usage of fashion images?
  - How is medium iso image quality going to be?
  - aren't all the high end shooters already well equiped with gear that works?

- landscape guys?
  - But the lack of T/S lenses will hurt here for some
  - The lack of life view is also a major issue here if you are really into large print sizes
  - The hardcore MFDB shooters will want 16 bits and micro lenses less sensors (whether that is relevant or not is a different question)

- people who like the look of the Leica lenses and for whom money doesn't matter?
  - Nothing to say here

- the so called rich dentists
  - most probably so

Cheers,
Bernard

Good question.
I think it depends a lot on the lenses.
If the T/S lens is good/excellent, some people might be able to use the S2 instead of owning a  Cambo/Alpa/Horseman camera and a MF-system.
If the Leaf shutter lenses work fine, it could be a replacement for people who need/own both a leaf-shutter and And a system with shorter shutter times.
I dont know but are 37 MP really that bad? If the handling of the S2 is just a little faster, if the ISO are just 1/2 stop better, if the lenses are really usable wide open and the AF is precise and maybe a little bit faster, what would one miss when using the S2?

You probably give up just a little bit at the upper end (some MP, a little bit sensor size), but extend the flexibility quite a bit at the lower end (smaller, faster, more rugged/weatherproof, more portable)

Wouldnt it be a good camera for fashion shooter, portrait shooters, wedding shooters, landscape and nature shooters (as long as they do not need to use long tele)?

Cheers, Tom


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Ben Rubinstein
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« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2009, 03:11:08 AM »
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Aren't the cons of microlenses limited to the use on tech cameras which are not relevant in this case?
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KevinA
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« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2009, 05:27:44 AM »
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Quote from: foto-z
Can you elaborate?

I am shooting aerials. Yes I know a MF can do it very well. When I am flying I have quoted a fixed price for the job and I will be doing a number of jobs per trip. A helicopter is costing 20. per minute. I tried a Leaf system with a zoom and quite frankly it was like a drainpipe full of cement.... heavy, Hasselblad was better but only 1/800th of a second, plenty fast enough most of the time but not always if you need a long lens and it's a bit breezy, plus I'm still not covinced by the hype hasselblad tries to spin. That leaves the Mamiya and Phaseone I am tempted by this, it's the best for me handling MF available as of now. The Leica S still looks much better for me. I also shoot lots of images for my library when I'm flying, having a couple of bodies with zooms really helps. If I was always stuck with primes (I do use them as well) my profit margin would take a dip and also not having high iso available for evening and night work would not be good. Most of the time 35mm does what I need, if I could have the MF quality with 35mm versatility I would have the best of both Worlds.

Kevin.
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Kevin.
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